Uechi-ryu kata start/end positions - What do you do?

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Uechi-ryu kata start/end positions - What do you do?

Post by gmattson »

In my September IUKF newsletter, I discussed how Uechi-ryu didn't emphasize starting and ending positions, at least not in my recollection and I mentioned a number of reasons why I felt this was good for the system. My good friends and colleagues, Darin Yee and Al Wharton wrote (at my request for comments) the following e-mail:
Hi George,
I would like to comment on this subject regarding the position of where we start a kata and when we finish. I am one of the practitioners who firmly believe in the symmetric of forms, handsets or kata. If your Uechi-Ryu stances are precise and consistent, you should start and stop on the very same spot which you began.

Other than the san-chin kata, I start and stop on the same spot while performing every kata. Also realize there are movements within our Uechi-Ryu techniques which many do not incorporate. If we post like statues, not only will we not end on the same spot, we are not performing and practicing our fighting technique as it is intended to be used. I would think that Grandmaster Kunbun Uechi understood this and pasted it down. Through our Okinawan evolution, a lot of our ancient Chinese philosophies, nuances and understandings have been relinquished. We did not post in our katas until the early 70s.

This is one of the strongest reasons I believe Pong Gai-Noon (Uechi-Ryu) is really from China. Original, authentic Chinese handsets all start and finish on the same spot. If you’ve ever watched or participated in a tournament in China, you would start and finish in a 3’ square box and warned about losing points for not complying with this rule. A Tai-Chi tournament is even more critical with this rule. They use a 2’ square box as a starting and finishing point. Many Tai-Chi circles still impose this rule.

In most countries, practitioners work on their upper half and concentrate on how powerful they can punch or kick. In China, the knowledgeable teachers watch the legs, posture, balance and stances to determine one’s ability. All of my students are taught to work on the consistency of their stances. If you would like to witness this firsthand, please ask me to perform any kata other than san-chin for you while you are here at my dojo or when you see me at summer fest or winter fest. I would be happy to perform any kata for you.

Darin Yee
Hachidan IUKF


and Al wrote:
Hello Darin,

Correct...I believe Seisan (long form) will not finish on the same spot as well.

Regards,

Al


To which I responded:
Interesting discussion Al and Darin. . .

Without being concerned about this issue, I find myself ending up in the same spot I started in many of my kata performance. With a bit of effort and modification of movements I could easily make this a part of my kata.
However, my newsletter response was only to answer the question “in Uechi-ryu, is there such a physical restriction to one’s kata performance” and I stated what Okinawa’s position was back in the 1950s and as far as I know, currently as well.

There are a number of reasons why I like the existing flexible position concerning this issue. It allows individuals to express their different techniques that evolve from the “core” kata movements, without the restrictions that would be imposed on their personal kata that any start-end ritual would impose.

There are lots of other personal reasons I would not like to impose such restrictions on the performance of a kata, simply because of start-end considerations, but these things are personal and should not affect the way I teach or interpret the purpose of the kata.

With this being said, I certainly would not criticize anyone who did feel this interpretation of the kata is important and taught kata so that every kata would start and end in the same spot. (I’ve experimented with this back in the 60s when I wrote “The Way of Karate” and if you check the book’s diagrams for sanchin and seisan, you will see they both started and stopped in the same spot.

Best,
George
and Al responded:
Hello Sensei,

I agree and follow your perspective and reasoning.

The only real benefit for starting and stopping in the same spot is uniformity of stepping, consistency of size of stances, and these work well if one is competing in tournaments and or demonstrations.

If one is using the form purely as a training mechanism for development of the kata as it relates to the state of mind and it's relationship to stress in the real world, then it surely does not matter.

My humble opinion....what do you think?

Best!

Al
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Re: Uechi-ryu kata start/end positions - What do you do?

Post by Bill Glasheen »

The starting/finishing position of a kata matters if the choreographer and/or practitioner intended it to. If (s)he was ambivalent when constructing the sequences, then the kata practitioner shouldn't try to measure up against a fabricated meter stick.

If you do Sanchin in a manner where you do both a clockwise and a counter-clockwise pivot turn - as I *intentionally* do every single time so my kata training has balance - then you WILL NOT end up along the same North/South line. Instead you will do two lateral shifts in the same East/West direction. Counter-clockwise followed by clockwise brings you two steps West. Clockwise followed by counter-clockwise gives you two steps East. Oops!

Ending up *near* the same place is more an issue of convenience for the dojo. When the classes are large, you don't want to be losing folks out the window during the practice of kata.

If you take care of the details (good mechanics on steps and turns) then the end will take care of itself as it should. My opinion... worth what you paid for it.

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Re: Uechi-ryu kata start/end positions - What do you do?

Post by gmattson »

Good reply Bill.

For whatever it is worth, I believe the creator of the kata intended the forms to start and end around the same spot, simply because without any thought, I'm able to end up very close to where I began.
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Re: Uechi-ryu kata start/end positions - What do you do?

Post by gmattson »

This from Darin:
Hi Al,
My position is this. The Chinese believe and I concur, that the practice of form, kata, hand sets is to find the perfect balance in your movements. If we float and drift to where ever and settle for where we are, we are not seeking that perfect stepping and balance. While we are engaged in combat, we have to adjust and manipulate position for the best possible advantage against an opponent. In kata there is not actual opponent. That is why a lot of our techniques which requires angling in order to work is done in a lineal movement. I don't know if you agree in spite of what many of our Uechi-Ryu Community believes a lot of our techniques does not work lineally. I've proved that by asking many practitioners to put them to a test and they leave very unhappy.

If we truly believe this version about the "freedom" of movement, is that to say when we turn during san-chin, we can turn at a 45 degree or are we still expected to turn 180 degrees? When we perform the first 3 moves of turn block and shokin in conshiwa should we turn at a 90 degree and a 180 degree and another 90 degree or can we be at any angle we decide to turn? Some people don't like the 180 degree turn as they do not know enough to turn their upper body so their feet shuffles to get into a decent san-chin stance. So instead of turning 180 degrees, maybe they prefer to turn 120 degrees. Is that acceptable?

What kata does for us is the consistency of movements and muscle memory for our movement and thus we need not think as we fight. We simply respond. Why do we perform kata so many times? Why are we told "the more kata we perform, the better we become as a fighter"? It is because of basic muscle memory. If we are inconsistent with our kata practice, we will be inconsistent during battle. That is why I always practice consistency in kata, consistency in my stances and strive for perfection in me movements.

Just my understand and thoughts. Don't mean to impose my believes. Just explaining them.

Darin
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Re: Uechi-ryu kata start/end positions - What do you do?

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Lots of opinions on this.

My mindset is that of a researcher. I don't do production. I did 2 years of production chemistry, and knew that my future was graduate school where I could research the unknown and do the undone.

Every situation is different. I never do two kata the same way. I'm gravitating close to a jazz musician in martial arts where the structure is there, but I take it wherever I want whenever I want. To do this, your basics must be rock solid sound. First you make the mold; then you break it.

A great thing to do in prearranged kumite is to get two lines facing each other. You do a set, stop, bow, rotate one of the lines, and do it again. No two kumite are alike, are they? Each is necessarily different. The structure is there, but you must be like the tea in the tea cup. You *embrace* the variety.

So I don't do things the same way every time -- because I mean to do it that way. It's who I am.

And I don't expect others to be like me. God knows the world can only handle a handful of Bill Glasheens.

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Re: Uechi-ryu kata start/end positions - What do you do?

Post by Bill Glasheen »

For those who obsess over doing "the perfect kata" which ends up at the same spot every time, I give you this.

Swinging a bat is swinging a bat, right? As I was taught by my instructor, I must swing it tens of thousands of times so that I can swing it the exact same way every time and have no variance in how I swing it, right?

No...

It's not about me; it's about the situation that the pitcher presents to me. If I am a robot isolated in space swinging the perfect swing, I likely will *never* hit the ball.

Image

Same with facing an attacker. I cannot do "the perfect kata" when facing the bad guy who jumps out of the bushes. I must adapt to the situation given to me, and no two situations are the same. Ever. So I do what I mean, and I mean what I do.

Food for thought.

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Re: Uechi-ryu kata start/end positions - What do you do?

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Here's some video which makes the point in a simple, three variations scenario.

..... The Swing Bat - Pitch Locations

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Re: Uechi-ryu kata start/end positions - What do you do?

Post by Van Canna »

All good points.

A few times in the past I would have fun by telling my students in class to perform group kata as their lives depended on it ...while imagining an environment with up or down grade...like being attacked on an escalator at the mall...or finding obstacles...blood, piss, and vomit in their steps…while being jostled in different positional angles in some dark parking lot.

And to imagine that the group of students gyrating around ...were enemy combatants.

I would then notice compromises in speed, power and distance adjustments…using peripheral vision to watch others and adapting stances and angles as critical components from start to finish.

You can learn much about the dynamics of lines of force and direction adjustments while trying to keep the kata intact.

Another fun thing to do is ...have a student on the floor ...perform a kata while you jostle him around to see how well he does trying to adapt himself to this interference with his center.
Last edited by Van Canna on Sat May 21, 2016 4:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Uechi-ryu kata start/end positions - What do you do?

Post by Van Canna »

In a discussion with Walter, he tells me that Master Takara does not expect Kata to return to the start position.

He reminds of the anecdote about the guy who challenged the Master's student to fight and the Master supposedly said, "show me your kata and I'll tell you if you can fight or not."

And the difference being how real can you make the "imaginary" opponent in your kata?

He adds that kata in public is one thing, in private it's entirely different.

"Probably goes back to the days of secrets etc."

In any case, he feels that if you've never done Seisan with "reckless abandon" you've never done Seisan.
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Re: Uechi-ryu kata start/end positions - What do you do?

Post by Van Canna »

Another 'fun way' to do kata is to shut all the lights and plunge the dojo into darkness...then place one student in a corner of the dojo and another student in an opposing corner...with instructions to do Seisan kata in a 'savage way' while well knowing they might meet at some point in the dark room and probably having to take some hits.

Like here...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOQ5yAahwr8
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Re: Uechi-ryu kata start/end positions - What do you do?

Post by Seizan »

Just for the record...

I sent the following to Mattson Sensei and he suggested I post it as another point of view. Toyama Sensei was a member of the Kata Development Committee, and since I asked him specifically about this, the response might be of interest.

Standard cover: The following information might contradict other information. However it represents a Zankyokai point of view only, and is not intended to direct any non-Zankyokai student, oppose any other instructor's teachings, or change procedures in any non-ZKK dojo...

Sanchin begins and ends where the teacher decides. There is no standard count for steps north-south-north. Originally the steps were determined by the space available, and the number of times the teacher wanted to see the steps, posture, techniques, etc. Some teachers had the student turn and continue back and forth across the training area several times until finally reaching the double-strikes. I sometimes do this with beginning students.

In the Nagahama Dojo we count thrusts, not steps. Generally, experienced students go with four north, turn, four south, turn, three north, then double strikes, etc.

For the remaining kata, I have a small white dot on the floor of my dojo for students to start from so they can see more clearly where they finish. After severe training in Sanchin and learning to control their stepping width/depth, most students find they start and finish exactly where they should (by our standards).

Kanshiwa begins and ends on the same spot.

Kanshuu was originally engineered to begin and end on the same spot but the direction of the wauke and double-boshiken in the southward portion (step-offs left then right) changed the kata from an I-form to a T-form (actually, upside-down T), resulting in Kanshuu ending two Sanchin steps forward of start position.

Seichin and Seisan begin and end in the same position.

Seiryu ends two steps back from the beginning point.

Kanchin begins and ends on the same spot.

We present Sandairyu (Sanseiryu) by taking a starting position, then take one step to our left, bow, and begin. We end one step right of where we began.

The original purpose (as related to me) for any form to begin and end on any designated spot was to ensure the steps were consistently the same length and depth. Our kata consistently begin and end on the spot specified for that kata, provided the Sanchin stance is exactly the same throughout the kata. While modification of the length or width of a step is necessary for a dynamic bunkai or kumite, the final position is the same Sanchin stance from which the student learned to generate max power from the first day of training.

This might be helpful, informative, or even of simple historical value, however it seems to represent only a small number of practitioners.
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Re: Uechi-ryu kata start/end positions - What do you do?

Post by Glenn »

Seizan wrote: Sanchin begins and ends where the teacher decides. There is no standard count for steps north-south-north. Originally the steps were determined by the space available, and the number of times the teacher wanted to see the steps, posture, techniques, etc. Some teachers had the student turn and continue back and forth across the training area several times until finally reaching the double-strikes. I sometimes do this with beginning students.
This was how my first teacher (mid-1980s) had us do Sanchin, he had trained under Seiyu Shinjo in the 1970s. I generally still do it this way when practicing on my own.
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Re: Uechi-ryu kata start/end positions - What do you do?

Post by Stryke »

So the big three didn't start and end in the same place , and in Seisan the moves were added to move change this ?

seems just a handy way to teach though for bigger groups

cant really see were it matters much in a bigger sense , except for logistics and conformity sakes.

I probably matters a lot if your competing , I always remember being taught to end up back on the spot for the judges.
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Re: Uechi-ryu kata start/end positions - What do you do?

Post by Van Canna »

I agree Marcus...really mostly 'cosmetics'...

IMHO a student needs to feel comfortable and 'access' the sanchin concepts no matter how he happens to step...how long...how short...how wide...and not necessarily of his choice but because he may find himself in those stepping 'aberrations' in a fast and furious situation...

So the student needs to practice feeling comfortable doing his kata while adapting his strides to any situation...beginning with the non ending in the same spot.

I have trained good friends of mine for master rank testing...by also making them perform Seisan and Sanseiryu down a flight of steps in low light over Bob Bethoney's dojo during the TC training.

Those guys turned to be one of a kind in a close quarters situation.

Think of having to fight someone on an escalator steps at a mall.
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Re: Uechi-ryu kata start/end positions - What do you do?

Post by Stryke »

Agreed Van, good post , I do think it's interesting for folks that have been around a while to fuss over the details , but to keep in perspective.

different folks have different stances lengths motions , and the kata will vary , but really we are starting to contemplate navels sometimes IMO.

No harm in teaching things either way , I'm sure most could probably pick a spot and manoeuvre to it regardless of the kata with a bit of drive and variation and expression , but doing it well is the point.

and doing kata and moving in uncommon ways and terrain etc , great test of mobility and adaptability for solo practice , Bills points on Jazz and variation of a baseball swing are spot on.
IMHO a student needs to feel comfortable and 'access' the sanchin concepts no matter how he happens to step...how long...how short...how wide...and not necessarily of his choice but because he may find himself in those stepping 'aberrations' in a fast and furious situation...
really the point of the alls In Sanchin stuff to me , how do we drive those concepts forward into the system and into the variability in what we actually need.

all these rules are good , but the reason behind is the important bit , we can be going were we need too which is good , or we can be conforming and limiting or motion to give us balance and adaptability, different prescriptions for different ailments.

I think many view training as a recipe , there are these steps and if you follow them exactly you get this result . I view it more as a remedy for a particular aspect , for some the cure may kill and they may need a different aspect altogether. The good instructor sees when folks need what.

But now I'm contemplating Navels ;)
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