Zhou Zihe

[benzocaine]

. I think there was a less sunny side to the old karateka that has been pushed to the side.

I would guess that's because the Okinawans were and to some extent still are occupied by The US military and lived in a police state. They probably wanted to accentuate the art side of things to avoid GI Joe beleiving that the natives were going to be hostile again

[RACastanet]

Hello Bruce. How are you?

Thanks for the thoughtful response on the subject. It is very informative.

Regards, Rich

[Stryke]

Excellent information guys , It makes a lot of sense , glad i asked the question .

[MikeK]

Bruce, I missed your post the first time. Good stuff. Thanks.

[Bill Glasheen]

Mike

I'll answer your question with an analogy.

My son has just gotten on his first basketball team. He's the only guy on a winning team of eight (2-0 and looking great) who never played on a team before. He's lucky; the coach actually played him in both games. But he's got a long way to go.

For Christmas, I bought him 4 Pistol Pete Maravich Homework Basketball DVDs. Great stuff.. Anyhow, Pete has the kids doing all these strage exercises.

After my son watches the DVD, I bring him to the gym with me. He's off on one end of the dojo with basketball, and I'm on the other end teaching karate. I stop now and then to go over and "assign" him one of the Homework Basketball drills to do. Often he gets pissed off at me, and throws an adolescent tissy fit. He doesn't understand why he has to drill a V dribble, and do all these other basic things that look nothing like basketball. Now and then I need to take him down a notch, and remind him he ***** and so can't consider himself an expert. It's "tough love."

Anyhow, these are drills. My son almost didn't pay any attention to the tapes, because they show "a geek" wearing (gasp) Converse Allstars and with long, baggy socks. Then I had him read some history. "You mean he averaged 46 points a game??" Yes, son, it isn't the shoes; it's the man in the shoes.

So what the fuk do all these drills have to do with basketball? Ask a hard-working, blue collar genius like Pistol Pete.

So what the fuk do all these kata have to with fighting? On the surface - nothing. They are a study of movement. And once you drill, dissect, and perfect all those movements, then you can do what you want with it. Offense, defense, whatever.

Understand that much of the concept of a style and the belt system had to do with introducing martial arts into Okinawan and Japanese physical education curricula. It's a great study of movement. What's not to like about that?

And once you know how to move, then we can teach you how to fuk someone up - if you want to go there.

Or maybe not. Grossman has a thing or two to say about that.

Your choice.

- Bill

[MikeK]

And that's the wonderful thing about karate, there are so many parts to it and each part is almost an art by itself.

Now that my wife is done with her Peoplesoft conversion I'll finally get back to class. Get myself busy and cut back from posting on the forum as much.

BTW, Who is Grossman?

[Rick Wilson]

Bruce:

“So, did Kanbun bring a “style” from China? Bobby’s answer was no. He feels that Kanbun merely brought a few kata and some training techniques from China that he had learned from his time with the P’wan-gai-noon “society”. It was in Okinawa that it was formalized, added to, then ultimately codified into the vibrant and robust style we now know as Uechi-ryu Karate-do.”

This is very consistent with the fact it was Kanbun Uechi who changed the name to Uechi Ryu. Like others I do not believe he would have done so had he brought back a “style” from China.



“There is also reference to hiki who guarded the king, but what else did protecting the king entail?”

Okay taking this comment way off track but it is a demonstration of purpose directing form. I saw a very nice Bo style demonstrated but found a number of the moves to be VERY large and they appeared cumbersome for fighting.

In talking to one of the practitioners afterwards I found out that the style was that of the Japanese Emperor’s guards and the wide movements were not intended for fighting but to clear the way through a crowd or mob.

[maxwell ainley]

"Kanbun brought back a few katas ,and training technique"

Good choice.
He also brought back the idea you could ,create more from that choice ,and a training methodology to do it too,provided you did your homework .

[Bruise* Lee]

[quote="MikeK"][quote] I've heard stories about some masters and many seemed to have connections to crime, were body guards, enforcers, prize fighters or brawlers. Somewhere we were sold the image that the men who put together these arts were hippies dancing in the daisies.
[quote]

I trained in Hsing Yi for a couple of years in an on and off fashion , to supplement my other training. My instructor was Ken Fish. He is the only caucasion to study under Jan Jung Feng, who was quite celebrated on Taiwan. 2 things he said to me that I find interesting in relation to this discussion now are : 1) In regards to "Chi", it was used to describe some vague notion of power, and when the "hippie space cadets (as he put it)" showed up to learn about "Chi" Jan Jung Feng made fun of them. 2) "real" martial arts was only studied by 3 people LEO's, Soldiers and criminals - as they had the need to do things like break peoples arms. Scholars and aristocrats who were taught martial arts were typically taught watered down versions.

Also -Monastaries were a great place to hide from authorities,not all monks at a temple were ordained into the high religious aspects but often just did chores on the temple grounds and so monastaries were a great place for those on the run from the law to hide. So many martial arts in the temples could very well have been largely attended by felons. Temples were well known places for political dissidents to hide and train.

[Mark Brelsford]

From my notes...

Discussion with Ryuko Tomoyose 30 Dec 1996

Information concerning Kanbun Uechi’s teacher in China
Shushiwa/Shushabu…..Who are they, are they the same person? And related info…

1. Shushiwa/Shushabu same person. In Fukushu, Shushiwa is pronounced Shushabu.

2. Shushiwa is the same as Shushabu….Regarding the picture in many dojo’s that is Shushiwa, it is Kanbuns teacher..

3. Shushiwa also did many different styles, started training at a very young age. In China at this time it was very comman for this, even though he was only 4 years older then Kanbun he had been training for many years. Kanbun was considered “old” when he began.

If anyone has questions for Tomoyose sensei, I will be calling him for New Years, plesae let me know either here or mail me direct at mjbrelsford@cox.net

Happy New Year to all.

Mark J Brelsford

[mikemurphy]

To help (or add more confusion) with this topic, David Mott sensei has a very interesting paper on the history of Uechi-ryu and Kanbun Uechi Sensei. I would have to dig it out, as he was very gracious to send me a copy, but I remember it saying that Shushiwa (and Kanbun) were involved heavily in the Boxer Rebellion at the beginning of the century. I'm not big into Chinese history, but that would coincide with his time in China and the area in which he trained. I'll try to find where I put the paper.

mike

[Stryke]

Thanks Mike i`d be fascinated to find out more

any info appreciated

[MikeK]

Are there any ideas of where Kanbun stood in these orginizations and his possible role? I'd think with his retirement from teaching over the death of the neighbor that he must have had a limit on what he would and wouldn't do.

[Stryke]

2. Shushiwa is the same as Shushabu….Regarding the picture in many dojo’s that is Shushiwa, it is Kanbuns teacher..

If anyone has questions for Tomoyose sensei, I will be calling him for New Years, plesae let me know

I`d be interested if you could ask how this was established ? , and check if this is accepted now , I see in the interview George Mattson conducted with Sensei Tomoyose that he said Shushiwa of tiger boxing fame was not Kanbuns teacher , I`d be interested to what additional information was found to change this opinion .

I`m aware this may be difficult or not possible , but would appreciate the effort .

In fact if anyone has interesting Uechi ryu history myth/fact I`d be interested in hearing it .

all this information should be preserved , including the process of discovery .

[RACastanet]

The variation on Shu Shiwa and Shu Shabu that I have gone by is that one is a name of a person, ie. Shu Shiwa in Shiwa of the Shu family, and Shu Shabu is a place name, ie. Shu Shabu is the work out hall of the Shu family.

I'm not sure where I picked that up but I believe it was from Alan Dollar sensei's book.

By that reasoning the confusion is not a difference in local dialects. If someone asked me how I learned Uechi I could correctly answer "from Glasheen sensei"" or at "Glasheen's gym". Both are correct but a different answer to the quaestion.

Mark or anyone: Any thoughts on this?

Thanks, Rich