Zhou Zihe

[Rick Wilson]

While Mark would be a much more knowledgeable of such things, there is an Okinawan cultural issue to be cautious of. When something is presented and refuted but is then presented again – at some point it would seem “rude” to continue refuting it.

Much like having to say – no.

Just something to perhaps consider.

[Guest]

I'd think with his retirement from teaching over the death of the neighbor that he must have had a limit on what he would and wouldn't do.

Mike, I guess we will never know if Kanbun diluted what he taught in the name of safety. We know he was held in high reguard. Teaching Chun Fa in China.

From Allan Dollar's book:

Gokenki of white crane fame defeated all comers from the Nahe schools...."He became popular with many requests for instuction. He would speak of a great Chun Fa expert in Northern Okinawa, who had been his friend and teacher in China. (Kanbun)

Gokenki became very well known in Okinawa and became good friends with Chojun Miyagi. His Fukien White Crane system influenced the development of both Shuri te and Naha Te.
_____________________________________

"Anko Itosu, founder of Shorin Ryu, asked Kanbun to accept a position at the Prefectural Teachers College in Okinawa where Itosu was a karate professor. The Prefectural Governor. during a tour of Northern Okinawa. also asked him to teach at the College. Kanbun respectfully declined both offers.
__________________________________________
So we know Kanbun was held in high regard by other masters, he no doubt had the skills.

From Patrick McCarthy's Bubishi:

Around the turn of the twentieth century, a small group of local Okinawan karate enthusiasts led by Itosu Anko established a campaign to introduce the discipline into the island's school system as a forum of physical, exercise. Itosu's crusade to modernise karate-jutsu led to a radical revision of the practice.

Removing much of what was then considered too dangerous for school children, the emphasis shifted from self defense to physical fitness through group kata practice, but neglected its bunkai (application). By not teaching the hidden self-defense moves, the actual intentions of the kata (e.g., to disable,maim, and or even kill by traumitizing anatomically vunerable areas if necessary) became so obscure that a new tradition developed.

This radical period of transition represented the termination of a secret self-defense art that embraced spiritualism and the birth of a unique recreational phenomenon.
_____________________________________

We also know that Kanbun refused to be involved in dilution for the masses. We don't know what he passed on to his students.

If we view the Wakayama dojo tapes from the sixties we see that Kanbuns student Ryukyu Tomoyose was teaching Uechi that looked very diferent than the Uechi-ryu Kanei Uechi and his students were teaching to folks in Okinawa.

Has Uechi been diluted? I think so. By whom, when and why? Another thread another time, back to the main thrust of the tread..

[Stryke]

Great post Laird , I`m going have to some digging and see if i can find out more about Gokenki .

As for the dilution of Karate , it was directly related to becoming a DO , and to be accepted by the japanese , following the path of kendo and Judo it had to establish a sport element and various rituals were changed/established , that and the ranking system were imposed .

There was of course opposition and the founding of so many different styles was in effect an attempt to conserve some of the teachings of particular groups .

Kanbun obviously wanted no part of it .

Oh yeah and check out my sig for how and why

[Stryke]

http://personal.picusnet.com/butoku/honbu.html
http://personal.picusnet.com/butoku/history.html

And standardise martial systems and disciplines

[Stryke]

http://www.geocities.com/alaumirm/s_pagina9.htm

Interesting stuff on Gokenkai and his influence on Toude

[Mark Brelsford]

via Patrick McCarthy and a talk with him while on Okinawa...

Zhou Zi He, "[called] Yong Kuang, also called Xunshan Daozhe, (August 1874-April 1926), male, [from] Minhou, Fujian. He was a civil boxing teacher. He studied martial arts under Li Zhaobei and Ke Xidi. He was good at many kinds of wushu. He practiced Crane Boxing, Tiger Boxing, Hard [Ying] [Qi] Gong, Internal [Nei] [Qi] Gong, etc. He had many students and was very famous. His excellent students were Pu Pu, Jin Shitian, Wang Didi, Zhou Zhengqun, the Japanese Uechi Kanbun [Shangdi Wanwen], etc. In 1984, Uechi Kanbun’s son Uechi Kanei[Shangdi Wanyin], who was the chairman of the Japanese Uechi Ryu Karate [Shangdi Liu Kong] Association, led his members to look for their forefathers in Fuzhou, and recognized that Zhou Zihe was the founder of their school. Now, his former residence has been repaired and opened. Mr. Zhou Zihe not only was good at wushu, but he was also good at poetry and writing, especially in drawing tigers."

As for Okinawan culture, Rick not quit sure what you are trying to say. I have talked to many lengths to Tomoyose about this topic, it is what it is. One must remember that Ryuko was also a student of Kanbun. All this counter goverment info is a bit odd, as he was more or less for what is is worth a possible worker for his teacher selling herbal medication and not so much a revolutionary.

I will ask Ryuko when I talk with him on Sunday, if anything is of interest I will post it.

Mark J Brelsford

[Stryke]

In 1984, Uechi Kanbun’s son Uechi Kanei[Shangdi Wanyin], who was the chairman of the Japanese Uechi Ryu Karate [Shangdi Liu Kong] Association, led his members to look for their forefathers in Fuzhou, and recognized that Zhou Zihe was the founder of their school. Now, his former residence has been repaired and opened. Mr. Zhou Zihe not only was good at wushu, but he was also good at poetry and writing, especially in drawing tigers."

I was under the impression that Tomoyose wasnt covinced after the 1984 trip .

Thanks for the effort Mark would be fascinated to hear what you find out

[MikeK]

Good post Laird, but what I meant by "that he must have had a limit on what he would and wouldn't do" was morally in relation to the Boxers. I think Mark may have cleared it up.

[diegoz_ar]

This is the kind of posts I enjoy .

Saludos,
Diego

[Bill Glasheen]

Indeed, all input is welcome. With so many oral sources only years away from leaving this earth, I think it best to gather all the information we can now, and sort it later.

Thanks to all.

- Bill

[Glenn]

Regarding Gokenki, Dragon Times had a article about him in issue #20 that was informative.
http://www.dragon-tsunami.org/Dtimes/Pa ... issues.htm

[Bill Glasheen]

Gordi Breyette has weighed in through Van, and the information is posted on the link below. Source cited is "The Big Blue Book".

Uechi History

- Bill

[Glenn]

At the risk of offending someone, I will point out that we really have only one source for Kanbun's history in China: Kanbun. We have to rely that he was being open and honest about what he did in China, why he left there, and why he did not want to teach in Okinawa.

There are a whole spectrum of other possibilities. For example if he was involved with secret societies and the boxer rebellion, he may have had to flee China and then did not want to teach in Okinawa so as to not draw attention to himself in case anyone from China was looking for him. In such a situation, what would you tell people who inquire, and students when you did start teaching?

The bottom line though is we will never know if the history we have received is any reflection of the truth or not. Speculation can only go so far, and we could come up with some quite fanciful stories that seem to fit the events. but of course that does not make them any more accurate than the canon.

[Glenn]

Speaking of the "Big Blue Book", anyone got an extra $2000 laying around?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... RK:MEWA:IT

[Bill Glasheen]

When I got mine, I paid $35 for it. And I understand they were difficult to sell at the time. Go figure...

Then again, who would have thought to buy in to an IPO for Microsoft stock?

- Bill