We ARE about high road training

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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Mike wrote: Definition time: Bill, Are you saying high road is cognitive, trained response that includes gross and fine motor skills?
This is where a lot of the confusion happens, Mike. It's appropriate sometimes to step back and talk theory so folks get back on track.

The quick answer is this. The "low road" response refers to a very fast neural pathway through the amygdala that is completely independent of conscious thought. There are neural pathways between the amygdala and the cortex in both directions, with more control of the amygdala on the cortex rather than the other way around. It is a two-way traffic but when push comes to shove, the amygdala wins.

Speed equals simplicity. Responses coming from the amygdala are thousands of years old, and are extremely simle (gross). You can only do so much. You cannot aim and properly fire a gun with low road. But you can avoid being hit with a sucker punch with a low road response.

The cortex and its associated functions are associated with the "high road" response. This you can change. This is where training happens. The cortex can influence the amygdala, but the reverse is more likely to happen when your system requires an emergency response. In the "high road", all things are possible. Gross moter, fine motor, complex motor, conscious, and unconscious movement patterns are all possible.

Ideally when you practice for things like fighting where the amygdala may take over, you want what is practiced to converge well with what will happen in a flinch response. This for example is one reason why we "post" in sanchin. But our sanchin post is a little more refined than the gross-motor flinch.

The goal here is to make the transition from flinch to high road seem seamless whenever possible.

A separate issue is the different levels of neurohormonal stimulation that can happen even when you are engaged in high road activity. Fine and complex motor coordination can deteriorate. Almost all fighting functions deteriorate to some degree when we mentally lose it. Some of us keep our act together more than others. The how and the why of that IMO is part of good MA training.

- Bill
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Post by MikeK »

The goal here is to make the transition from flinch to high road seem seamless whenever possible.
Wow, this is really something as my friend was talking about this very thing on Sunday. I've begun to develop OK flinch responses to certain attacks, so he's started to add some additional small things to do immediatly after the flinch that are a little more toward the high road.
...Some of us keep our act together more than others. The how and the why of that IMO is part of good MA training.
I'll be getting into this real soon. What methods do you use Bill?
I guess a question is how and what is needed in the way of self perfection and self knowledge, if any, that might allow one to remain in control on the high road?
Jim, I always poo poo'd that kind of thing, but I'm starting to look at just the way you put it. What if before all the lotus eaters and tree huggers got ahold of it, all the self perfection, self knowledge and spiritual stuff was used to help stay high road?
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Van Canna
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Post by Van Canna »

>At some point we start talking past each other, Van. It gets to where it appears from my end that you are engaging in strawman tactics. I do not take ownership of your characterizations of my views. <

Aw _ cut the bull sh*it Bill. :wink:
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

I'm not entirely convinced that everything folks think is low road is actually low road. And unless/untill we can plant sensors in various parts of our brains, we're not going to be able to know for sure.

I have a personal experience that sort of epitomizes low vs. high road.

My first martial arts instructor was a Japanese who studied under and knew many greats, including briefly with Gogen Yamaguchi. He was samurai class by birth, and his father apparently was a significant martial artist in his day. This man was 33 years old when I met and studied with him back in the very early 1970s. And he had a way of doing and teaching (at W&M) that folks really don't get away with much any more.

For the life of me, I can't tell you how much of what he did was brilliant, and how much of what I did in response to perhaps sadistic training was brilliant. Who knows? All I can say is that my severe and sometimes dangerous and volatile training days with him created permanent memories and lessons in my brain.

Hiroshi Hamada Sensei had a few interesting habits. One is that he liked to abuse his promising students. For whatever reason, I happened to be the target of some of that abuse over the years. If you wilted under the abuse, he eventually would ignore you - the kiss of death with him. If you survived it, you got more. But you did get better very quickly.

And then there were those camps. Those damn, insane camps. These were 3-day weekend affairs where you were put through hell in workout after workout in severe conditions.

On a typical camp workout, we would run out to the beach near Kitty Hawk, NC at midnight and do hundreds of blocks and punches around a bonfire. At first it was kind of cool. Then he'd start to get a little insane. He'd pull long, burning boards out of the fire, and start whacking down on the upper blocks of one of his ... er ... "favorite" students. In my first such camp, I happened to be one of those favorites.

At first I didn't worry so much about the flaming stick coming down on my head. No big deal, right? You're really not going to get burned much with the thing bouncing off your forearms. But then I detected him getting a bit ... sadistic with me. He was counting, and everyone was doing high blocks to his count. At first it's no big deal. But then ... that bastard started coming down with the flaming stick towards my head in-between counts. It appeared he was trying to hit my head with it.

The wierdest thing happened. I was young and hadn't even taken physiology yet. All I know was that - no matter how much I tried to stay on timing - my arm would NOT let that burning stick hit my head. He was messing with my conscious mind and my sense of rhythm. And something inside said NO and a motion came up that sort of kind of looked like an upper block.

Much later on I realized he was triggering a flinch response in me. This was a low road response at its purest. I don't know if he knew what he was doing, or knew that he was opening my eyes to something. All I know was that the right thing happened - no matter how much I tried to stay on timing and possibly end up getting hit.

God bless that amygdala! 8)

Yes, he yelled and yelled at me to keep timing. And my arm kept flying up in perfect timing to the stick rather than pefect timing to his count.

Sensei Hamada was known to beat the *^%$ out of you for not doing what he wanted you to do. He did not - that day.

Maybe he was insane and sadistic. Maybe he was brilliant. I'll never know... :?

But back to the subject at hand... What I did sort of kind of looked like an upper block (classic jodan uke). It was flinch and it was primal. But it was really close to looking like the pure motion we were doing in kata and in drills.

How about that! 8)

You could say that my high road training worked. Or you could say I flinched, and my flinch was affected somewhat by my high road training. Or you could say that my high road training was a lot like my flinch, and so the differences mattered little. Everything converged beautifully.

I'm sort of a fan of the latter school of thought.

At the same camp, 24 hours later, we are at the top of a very steep dune doing maybe about a thousand punches. By then we are hoarse, and our biceps are sore from the constant twanging from punching air. You'd get tired. Your punches would slow a bit. And the next thing you knew... That bastard would sneak up behind you and push you so hard that you went flying down the steep dune - head first.

It was humiliating, and a lesson I guess. But then again... The arms would fly forward, and I would end up doing nearly a perfect forward fall - even with head coming downhill before butt. It wasn't a pure flinch, because a pure, naked flinch would mean my hands would go straight out and I'd hurt my wrist. It was sort of kind of a flinch, but it was refined in a way that I did nearly a perfect forward fall. Each of us would crawl back up to the top of the dune, and continue to punch again in earnest. 8O

But I still remember those sneak attacks from behind, and how my body responded. We were tired and sore and disoriented and weak. But the amygdala somehow played a role, and I somehow ended up OK.

Did he know what he was doing, or did I survive in spite of his brutatlity? Who knows?? But I sure as hell learned something.

And then there were those 20-minute punching sessions while kneeling in the waves of 30-some-odd degree ocean. Don't get me started... :evil:

- Bill
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Van wrote: Aw _ cut the bull sh*it Bill. :wink:


No BS, Van.

You're good at it, if I say so myself. Case in point below.
Van wrote: So why aren’t the lethal force trainers pushing the type of training you advocate?

What don’t they know that you know Bill?
1) Just what are you talking about that I am pushing? You make a vague statement about something, and present it as a pejorative.

2) Just what specifically are you talking about that the lethal force trainer push? Nothing I've seen that comes from these folks seems all that strange to me. I may differ in intepretation, but none of it seems foreign to me

3) What makes you think we are so different?

4) Did it ever occur to you that the problem may not be one of practice, but a lack of understanding somewhere by someone(s)?

And as for "experts", well I have an interesting thought on that one. One of my old mentors was a brilliant man also working for a company that we both eventually left. This company was like a lot of companies that felt a need constantly to bring in consultants for $$ to look over what we did and have the consultants tell senior management what we really should be doing. Invariably these "experts" would interview those people like my boss and I who were doing the work, and report our thoughts to senior management as if they were their own.

I kid you not.

Ask a few people who have worked for large companies about the practice. They may have similar stories. There's a joke about consultants and counting sheep, but instead I'll tell you my former mentor's thoughts.

My mentor had a saying. An "expert" is someone from out of town with slides.

There are many experts around. It's great to keep the mind open, read, cross train, and keep the learning active.

But why are "experts" always "those other guys?" Why are folks so insecure that they can't start using their years of martial and/or academic training, and start thinking for and trusting themselves?

Food for thought. ;)

- Bill
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Post by JimHawkins »

Stryke wrote: I still dont get what your defining as High road , I dont want to assume it`s more of the do the reps and it`ll come philosophy .
I'm not the only one then... :)

I am not clear on this either. I can relate to aiming a gun using the sights as a fine motor high road... But what if you aim the gun using feel? In the old wild west days, when shoot outs were commonplace, folks didn't aim using sights like they do today. Perhaps there is significance here.

Look at how a sling shot is aimed, using feel, is that high road or low road? Now, how long have humans used sling shots?

Does the high road involve conscience thought? Must it involve conscious thought to be high road or not?

For example in Chi Sao I find at least three kinds of stimuli/response conditions:

In the first kind I see an opportunity to do a technique and then do it.

In the second kind I feel the opportunity to do a technique and do it.

In the third kind I simply do a technique and was not aware of the perception process at all.

Do these three examples address or define the low vs high?

Mike:

Yes I think the self cultivation thing is true... How much time to we Westerners spend on this and how well do we understand this? It seems not so well and it also seems we as Westerners have trouble wrapping our brains around applying internal concepts in combat – perhaps major refinement of the spirit must come first.

Everything comes from inside us and getting real control over our inner selves will surly make a big difference in any martial performance.

An oversimplification perhaps but among this kind of thought and philosophy I see at least two paths. One is the Emotional content that Bruce Lee and Rory spoke of where emotion is used to speed things up and energize it.

The other is removing emotion, desire and fixation which seems to help also but in a different way.

The former to me is external while the latter to me is internal and originates from Buddhist teachings. I have found both work at different times and do different things.

There is, of course, more to this I believe including addressing fear of injury, death and the desire for life... Those who either through training or genetics have no fear of death or injury can approach combat with much greater efficiency IMO.
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Post by Van Canna »

You're good at it, if I say so myself. Case in point below.
As always, Bill, you can be a good comedian. :wink:
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Post by MikeK »

Much later on I realized he was triggering a flinch response in me. This was a low road response at its purest.
Bill, The other guy who is training me has very good control and uses it much in the same way as Hiroshi Hamada. Same kind of thing but since I'm a big ol' wuss he does it with much lower intensity. To break certain habits and instill others he hits me. At first it was annoying hard taps to the head, then slaps, then controlled punches. He also has sped up the attacks. The result is I'm starting to see the beginnings of a usable flinch.
So it's safe to say that a low road response can be tweaked by training similar high road responses, and then applying adequate repeated stress to bring it out and make it the default response. Am I on the right track?

There is, of course, more to this I believe including addressing fear of injury, death and the desire for life... Those who either through training or genetics have no fear of death or injury can approach combat with much greater efficiency IMO.
Jim, if you haven't already check out "On Killing" by Lt Col. Grossman. I'm reading it now and it brings up some very interesting observations.
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Post by RACastanet »

"But what if you aim the gun using feel?"

This is the 'instinctive' shooting I referred to in my post above. If the handgun you use fits your hand properly this can be very effective at short ranges, say 1 yard to 5 yards. As you get out to 10 yards you really need to practice a lot to hit center of mass.

"In the old wild west days, when shoot outs were commonplace, folks didn't aim using sights like they do today. Perhaps there is significance here."

What do you base this on? The honorable face-to-face shootouts are something of a myth. The bad guys usually just shot people in the back from a safe distance.

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Post by MikeK »

I was watching Wild West Tech on the History Channel and they went over gunfights. It wasn't like Cary Cooper in High Noon but more of a pray and spray method like you see thugs do today. Lots of shots fired but not too many hits. One famous fight had over 20 shots fired at very close range before one of the combatants was fatally shot. Rich is right, the smarter ones just shot you in the back. Jesse James, Billy the Kid and Wild Bill all ambushed or shot in the back.
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Awww... But that doesn't make for such a good movie, does it?

And where are the stories of Bad Guys in black hats being shot in the shooting hand? :P

We forget that when it really mattered (e.g. hunting for food) that the rifle was the weapon of choice. The six-shooter was there to serve as a close-range equalizer. It kept the peace when law-and-order was lacking.

Lately I've had a bit of a squirrel problem in my back yard. They destroyed several hundred dollars in bird feeders, and could make quick work of pounds of shelled sunflower seeds. Mind you, I have more acorns in my yard than you could possibly imagine, and these are the invasive, non-native gray squirrel.

Time for some culling...

I got a rather long-barreled pellet gun, and began taking shots at these things from my upstairs window.

I've done some time at the range, and try to dry-fire my Glock whenever possible. But I'm embarassed to say how many days of taking shots it took before I bagged the first critter. :oops:

Shed no tears for these fellows, folks. There are still 2 left, and they are nesting in my woods. Nature lives on. 8)

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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Mike wrote: So it's safe to say that a low road response can be tweaked by training similar high road responses, and then applying adequate repeated stress to bring it out and make it the default response. Am I on the right track?
That's the theory, Mike, and pretty well stated.

Theoretically speaking the high and low road areas of the brain have enough neural connectivity to believe one can influence the other. The low road has a kind of trump-card influence when you are surprised and your life is on the line, but its exremely gross and fairly primative nature appears to be capable of being shaped over time.

Just don't try to train something that is completely at odds with the skeleton of the low road approach, or you're asking for trouble.

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Post by Bill Glasheen »

And this gets to some more interesting thoughts on this matter from me.

Sanseiryu is a great example of a Uechi enigma that we long-term Uechika try to tackle. On first blush, it appears to be way too complicated and difficult ever to be practical for self defense application. Furthermore, I had noted over time how I could do a great Seisan at a demo in front of tens of thousands of folks (basketball halftimes), but I'd really hose a Sanseiryu whenever trying to do it stressed.

Is Sanseiryu only a dojo dream? Maybe... Or maybe not.

It has taken me years of practice, exposure to Fuzhou Suparenpei, and work with Masters such as Gushi Sensei to begin to unravel this mystery kata. Over time, I began to realize that - yes - even this complicated kata was all gross motor movement. No, there really was no fine motor coordination (FMC) in it. And while it appeared to be complicated, years of teaching and research has made me see all the simple Sanchin elements that each and every move is made of. Yes, the combination of these elements borders on being complex motor coordination (CMC), but not quite. Very often these fancy scooping shoken thingies and such were nothing more than large-motor movements with the hands being dragged along for the ride.

And all these crazy grabs and hand positions really are simple, once you see how to do the basic Uechi techniques.

Make it simple. Make it simple. Always I was trying to make this complicated form seem like less by seeing the simple pieces it was made of. The way it's put together is brilliant, but not really THAT complicated.

So for the most part, this is Gross Motor Coordination (GMC). It's complicated GMC. It's difficult GMC. But it's the epitome of what GMC can be. It's pushing that GMC envelope.

It takes work. It takes practice. It takes partner training. It takes creativity in seeing all the many, many things you can hook on to each and every movement.

And this gets me back to what Siddle and others are talking about in managing SSR. With heart-rate as being an index of neurohormonal status, Siddle talks about maintaining that optimal state. Not too little stimulation, and not too much stimulation. This, Siddle says, optimizes our GMC.

Yes, getting piss-in-your-pants stimulated can make even your GMC go to hell.

No, there's nothing admirable to emulate in a flailing basket case of a thug. They are to be feared, and they are to be respected on the street to the extent that they are common and you can be dead wrong in minimizing the threat. But IMO, they are not the epitome of what or where we want to be as fighters, martial artists, and self defense experts.

IMO, technique matter. Even good GMC requires good technique.

- Bill
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Post by RACastanet »

"The low road has a kind of trump-card influence when you are surprised and your life is on the line, but its exremely gross and fairly primative nature appears to be capable of being shaped over time."

The philosophy of the summer training camp is this:

ICS training is designed to enhance the natural human responses and capabilities that have evolved with the human species. Rather than attempting to learn artificial or fabricated skills that will inevitably breakdown under the extreme stress of combative confrontation, ICS training aims at enhancing natural human attributes that evolved in humans and their ancestors to deal with combat and the stress of combat. That core instruction is combined with training in the operational skills of weapons.

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Post by MikeK »

In a nutshell we don't do away with the low road but build upon the foundation of the low road.
That all makes sense and fits in with some training I've been exposed to.

Now how does this fit in with traditional training? :?

Does a student have to be shown what their low road flinch response is to various attacks, taught to optimize that, then start the layering of higher level responses onto that?

Whoops, got a meeting to go to. :x
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