We ARE about high road training

[gmattson]

And this may be the positive affects traditional martial arts believe is possible. Not something that can be accomplished in a weekend course or even in months, but. . . I do believe it is possible.

Lots of variables involved; reasonably good condition is a must. But if you have it all, the deciding factor remains in the control of one's mind. Without the confidence, no amount of training or conditioning will suffice.

Unfortunately, confidence can be easily destroyed from within or from outside influences. Someone tell you enough times you "can't do it", after awhile you will begin to believe the naysayers.

I believe that is a big part of your last post's message Rory.

Thanks for the "right-on" advice.

[Bill Glasheen]

Siddle has a great recipe for staying on the high road, and I've posted it in several places. I also talked about a beautiful article from Journal of Asian Martial Arts in The slow, high road. Here Secours talks about the Systema alternative to stimulus-response training. The Russian special forces have a very different approach to the operant conditioning methods presently used to train grunt recruits. These special forces guys take their time, and feel they have a better end product. They make a conscious effort NOT to stimulate flinch responses in their training.

One wonders if this might have been the planned approach of the older traditional martial arts that still valued jutsu vs. do.

Awarenesss and state of mind IMO seem to be key here. It's a matter of putting fear in a proper persective - as an ally rather than as something that trips the high road circuit breaker.

When you see how Siddle talks about the importance of things like having your affairs in order, you can imagine that even the warrior facing death can do so with purpose and without panic. That's pretty extreme I know but... I first sensed the ability to do that when number 1 son was born. No question I have that ability now - under the right circumstances.

Ah yes... the circumstances. Details, details.

- Bill

[Van Canna]

Excellent post Rory.

And lastly, the one that works when you are surprised and alone- experience. I've done this before. I've been here, moth*r #####*r, come get some. I've stood with blood dripping from my face thinking, "I've taken more damage than this in class. I've been hurt worse by my friends. MY WIFE HITS HARDER THAN YOU!"

And this is the ‘operant conditioning’ key that Grossman sets forth.

Obviously most TMA students, have not been there as above, and must rely on their training. But what type of training?

Also of interest_ would be definitions of what, let’s say Uechi Ryu practitioners, consider low road techniques and high road techniques.

Grossman writes

We can teach warriors to perform a specific action required for survival without conscious thought, but if we are not careful, we can also teach them to do the wrong thing.

Some trainers call these "bad muscle memory” or “training scars”. They are ‘scar tissue’ in the mid brain that is counterproductive in survival.

Whatever is drilled in during training comes out the other end in combat.

And this is what should keep us properly focused

You do not rise to the occasion in combat, you sink to the level of your training. Do not expect the combat fairy to come bonk you with the combat wand and suddenly make you capable of doing things that you never rehearsed before. It will not happen. Again whatever you train to do will come out the other end. Self preservation will become secondary to training.

So how to train and what to train with?

[MikeK]

Great post Rory and thanks for dragging the topic back onto the tracks. The screaming monkey image is great.

I see a lot of high road in karate-do Bill. Maybe some restricted it only to their own idea of what the do is used for, but there seems to be a lot of tools to help a person operate high road.

Also of interest_ would be definitions of what, let’s say Uechi Ryu practitioners, consider low road techniques and high road techniques.

I'm still working through this but at this point I'm personally not looking at certain techniques being high road or low.

[Uechij]

“Obviously most TMA students, have not been there as above, and must rely on their training. But what type of training?”

Hey Van,

what source is this statement based on? Is there some study or “expert” out there that shows, or can prove, that TMA students perform the worst of all practicing martial artists? Or would it be more accurate to say that most MA students, or people in general, “have not been there?”

Just curious.

[Van Canna]

Grossman

A student pilot can train on a flight simulator forever, but he needs at least one real flight with a copilot to make that transition to a real aircraft.

Conscious competence.

You can do the right thing, but you have to think about it. That is fine for many tasks, but for life and death skills to be performed under stress, it is not good enough.

Awareness is good, but without skills and ability tied to that awareness, all you have is anxiety. _ Tony Blauer_ extreme close- quarters combat trainer.

[Van Canna]

Grossman

You must train to fight with intent and will, and never with complacency.

So how do we train?

And the ‘right training’ notwithstanding, it will always come to this:

Grossman

If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen: a sheep.

what goes on around you….compares little with what goes on inside you. _ Ralph Waldo Emerson

[gmattson]

"shortchanged" here.

I'm hoping we have all learned from the "strawman" threads and won't use this tactic while discussing the "high-low" road issue.

Bill: can we begin a new thread for each issue and can we stick to this issue throughout the thread?

I'll prime the thread pump with a couple of very specific issues. As moderator, can you keep us all focused on the issue while following the rules?

[Bill Glasheen]

Sorry it's taken so long. My network at work here keeps crashing. Posts are getting lost in cyberspace.

That would make a great TV show, no? Lost in Cyberspace... Danger, danger, Will Glasheen!!!

I agree 100%, George. We are reading from the same page. I see several topics here, but I'll yield to you to start it all, and I'll organize it on the back end.

Frankly the dialogue already has been interesting - and good.

- Bill

[Van Canna]

UechiJ

Hey Van,

what source is this statement based on? Is there some study or “expert” out there that shows, or can prove, that TMA students perform the worst of all practicing martial artists?

Hey Uechi J_ you misunderstand. What I wrote was a reference to this specific passage of Rory

And lastly, the one that works when you are surprised and alone- experience. I've done this before. I've been here, moth*r #####*r, come get some. I've stood with blood dripping from my face

It has nothing to do with ‘experts’ _ it is well accepted that most practitioners have not experienced an ambush alone-experience standing there with blood dripping from their faces, as Rory points out.

[Van Canna]

I'm hoping we have all learned from the "strawman" threads and won't use this tactic while discussing the "high-low" road issue.

I think we have all learned well,George, why the 'strawman' argument is invoked in discussions.

[Bill Glasheen]

This is fascinating.

Van, I think sometimes two people can look at the same statement, and see two entirely different things. Humor me for a bit here.

Person A reads...

And lastly, the one that works when you are surprised and alone- experience. I've done this before. I've been here, moth*r #####*r, come get some. I've stood with blood dripping from my face thinking, "I've taken more damage than this in class. I've been hurt worse by my friends. MY WIFE HITS HARDER THAN YOU!"

Person A thinks...

Those traditional martial artists don't get it. They've never had blood dripping down their face. They've never seen the elephant. They will piss their pants...


Person B reads...

And lastly, the one that works when you are surprised and alone- experience. I've done this before. I've been here, moth*r #####*r, come get some. I've stood with blood dripping from my face thinking, "I've taken more damage than this in class. I've been hurt worse by my friends. MY WIFE HITS HARDER THAN YOU!"

Person B thinks...

Yea... I've had the schit kicked out of me in Sanchin. I've separated my shoulder in a bad fall. I've been hit in the jaw in sparring so hard that my mouth wouldn't close right for days. You just took your best shot, and I am still standing with a little bit of blood dripping down my face. Reminds me of a rock being thrown at me by little Jimmy Smith when I was six. Is that all you've got bitch? Hah!!!!

Same glass. Same amount of water.

What should we be telling our students?

What does this tell us about "traditional martial arts?"

- Bill

[JimHawkins]

I read it as:

Don't count your chickens before they hatch...

[Bill Glasheen]

[MikeK]

I read it as Person B.[/quote]