Uechi-Ryu.com

Discussion Area
It is currently Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:29 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:22 pm 
I've located my correspondence with Gordi Seizan Breyette which covers the circumstances and level of achievement involved in the issuance of Uechi Kanbun's certificate. Dated February 4, 2004, Seizan writes:

"Shuu Sensei didn't send Kanbun out to teach. Kanbun Sensei was on his way back to Okinawa in 1907 when circumstances led to his accepting a petition from the Nansoue villages and remaining in in China for an additional three years. He opened a training hall (which still operates today), and he returned to Shuu Sensei twice yearly for continued training.

Kanbun Sensei received a Menkyo Kaiden from Shuu Sensei when he initially set out on his return journey to Okinawa. The meaning of this certificate is 'There is nothing more to be taught to this person -- he has learned all there is to learn. He has mastered the system completely.' [Italics mine] No Menkyo Kaiden has since been issued in UechiRyu; that was the only one in our history."

I take this to mean, in conjuction with the evidence posted yesterday in the Fuzhou Suparinpei post, that Uechi Kanbun had learned the 108 step kata. Master's Uechi's teaching methods were to teach techniques and applications of movements and not to teach the entire kata in sequence. Therefore, we find use of Superarinpei techniques in the bridge kata developed by his Senior Students even though they do not appear in the three major kata he learned in Fuzhou and taught in Okinawa and in Japan.

One might never prove that Glasheen Sensei's Suparinpei is the one taught in the Fuzhou Temple via three circuits of the 36 rooms. But after Sanseiryu... why not? Learning it can only help to improve one's Uechi karate :D


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 6:02 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 17139
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Well stated, John.

Even if this is THETM Suparinpei, it likely is not done the same today as done when Kanbun saw it. This form seems to be somewhat fluid in the group that was practicing it, according to Simon.

But I believe the essence of what Kanbun might have seen is in this form - even if it isn't THE form. And IMO, this form teaches the RBSD folks how to flow in ways that they complain most karate folk can't. It must be done with flow, or you'll never get through it with power.

- Bill


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:33 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 9:40 pm
Posts: 3700
Quote:
I take this to mean, in conjuction with the evidence posted yesterday in the Fuzhou Suparinpei post, that Uechi Kanbun had learned the 108 step kata. Master's Uechi's teaching methods were to teach techniques and applications of movements and not to teach the entire kata in sequence. Therefore, we find use of Superarinpei techniques in the bridge kata developed by his Senior Students even though they do not appear in the three major kata he learned in Fuzhou and taught in Okinawa and in Japan.
I only have a gross understanding of Kanshiwa and Kanshu, but the more I play with them and try to see how the movements work in a looser more self defense oriented format the more I get the feeling that these just weren't developed to fluff some demonstrations or keep some impatient gaijin occupied. Could the bridge kata be where the students formalized the techniques that Kanbun thought were important without having to go through Superarinpei, a kata he may not have felt up to teaching?

_________________
I was dreaming of the past...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:43 am 
Mike K wrote

Quote:
Could the bridge kata be where the students formalized the techniques that Kanbun thought were important without having to go through Superarinpei, a kata he may not have felt up to teaching?


Well stated Mike. That's the opinion I hold and where my research takes me. Remember, however, that these "students" were then Karate Masters in their own right and appointed by Committee to constuct the bridge kata because of their experience in the system and their relationship as students of Uechi Kanbun Sensei.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:11 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 9:40 pm
Posts: 3700
Thanks John but any smarts in my statement go back to Bill's teaching on Uechi kata and pointing out the bits that fall outside of the Big 3, the wild arse leaps of logic are mine. :lol: I find it interesting that there are techniques from the advanced kata and techniques that seem to point at a fourth missing kata or at least a group of techniques outside of the Big3. I know jack squat about Uechi history but I personally can't dismiss the bridge kata as some useless decorative appendages hanging on the system since they are pertty meaty. And it's odd that these techniques would appear in mere beginner kata and not back loaded into a new fourth kata. Sombody thought these were important enough to teach up front before a person even got to black belt.

_________________
I was dreaming of the past...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 10:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2001 6:01 am
Posts: 473
Location: worcester, ma
i have a question on this that might be a mute point but i tend to find that details are important.

to my knowledge a "menkyo kaiden" is a japanese word and a traditional Japanese form of promotion. (your definition is right on) but did the chinese actually have a form of promotion that is it's equivilent? i am in no way trying to deminish Kanbun's status but the Japanese are more stringent and ridged then the chinese and i have to wonder if the certificate that you mention would actually carry the same weight (so to speek) as the japanese menkyo kaiden.

Hoshin
~~~~~


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:25 am 
hoshin said:

i have to wonder if the certificate that you mention would actually carry the same weight (so to speek) as the japanese menkyo kaiden.

Hoshin
[quote]

Good question. I don't know the answer. There weren't any certification boards in either China or Japan at the turn of the century and any Certificate rested solely on the reputation of the Master who issued it. The general sense is not so much in the document title as in the stated content that Chou Tsu Ho gave an unqualified endorsement and blessing to Uechi Kanbun as knowing all there was to know in his system. And Uechi Kanun was recognized a Master in China, in Okinawa and in Japan.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 3:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 6:01 am
Posts: 1683
Location: england
Of course the chinese systems had a similar qualification ,such as Kanbun sensei had reached a advancement in the ryu to both teach it plus take it ,and transplant it in other countries .
This qualification would not have been based upon a dan/kyu system but a cycle ,I think it would have been based within a framework of completion of between one or two cycles ,one cycle would give the practioner or would be master a inner insight into first of all how all or each movement of the ryu was created from sanchin ,this automatically elevates the practioner up to master status regardless of dan/kyu involvements .

_________________
max ainley


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 3:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 04, 2003 8:59 pm
Posts: 56
Location: Brandeis University
Maxwell, I don't entirely follow what you said. What do you base your information on?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:49 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 6:01 am
Posts: 1683
Location: england
Hi, jklob.

Well its based upon uechi-ryu philosophy ,or cycles of meanings that a practioner would encounter via the kata /plus applications etc etc.
Now take into account Kanbun would not be involved in modern syllubus such as ;study material up to black belt ,he would have instead have concentrated upon sanchin and nothing else for three to four years ,now this would not have been three or four one and a half hr sessions weekly ,no most of the day would be devoted to sanchin .
This would then provided a fertile field for seisan to be transplanted into ,or they would gel together similar to a baby in its mothers womb,again when the time is ripe the mother would give birth to her baby, in similar fashion sanchin gives birth to seisan ,but only when sanchin as been brought to a state of ripeness ,seisan is born from sanchin ,to reach that point would give a completion of
half a cycle of study .

sanseirui then brought back through both seisan and sanchin would fullfill one circuit of the three kata .along with meanings , you now have a cycle of study completed .

max.

_________________
max ainley


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2001 6:01 am
Posts: 473
Location: worcester, ma
as i mentioned before i was wondering if the certificate kanbun recieved was the equivilent of "nothing more to learn".
in the 50's and 60' the perception of a black belt was 'expert" or nothing more to lean.. but today we know that black belt is more just the begining. however black belt is usually regarded as a certificate to teach in most styles. so was Kanbuns certificate a black belt or a hanshi or Soke status. i would also like to point out that there is more then just a Menkyo kaiden certificate in Japanese koryu. and the highest certificate would only be given out once in a generation. was Kanbun the one?
i know these questions more likely then not are unanswerable. i would rather except that Kanbun recived a teaching licence. nothing more, and not put so much importance on it. buy assuming kanbun had nothing more to learn we put a super human aura around the man. we seem to want to always belive the myth that those who have gone before us were perfect. had the perfect kata and truly had nothing more to learn. from everything i have studied and learnt this is not always so. however people will continue to argue that Gentilman Jim Corbet would beat Mike Tyson.

Hoshin
~~~~~~


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:04 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 6:01 am
Posts: 1683
Location: england
It would be master status in this ryu ,due to extraordinary efforts not based upon a black belt system .

_________________
max ainley


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:10 am 
I beleive the chinese system is much like the one Rick`s following with the IUPA apprentice , practitioner , and teacher , of course they called them different things I assume .

Quote:
to my knowledge a "menkyo kaiden" is a japanese word and a traditional Japanese form of promotion. (your definition is right on) but did the chinese actually have a form of promotion that is it's equivilent? i am in no way trying to deminish Kanbun's status but the Japanese are more stringent and ridged then the chinese and i have to wonder if the certificate that you mention would actually carry the same weight (so to speek) as the japanese menkyo kaiden


To my knowledge Chinese paper weighs about the same as Japanese paper , of course like MA this varies on the quality :lol:


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:50 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Posts: 2714
Since we're talking about the big blue book... :)

As most know few years ago a man named David Smith undertook the task of translating Kanei Uechi's big blue book. He spent about 20 years and the final product, by his own introdcution, is a limited, partial, and overly literal translation of the text. (Note: Kobushi-Ho = Kenpo = Fist Method)

This text came to me via email awhile back and it turns out that David Smith is more than happy to have his (unauthorized, unofficial, incomplete, without illustratrations) translation shared with as many folks who care to read it.

The translated text is over 800 pages in a mircosoft word document. Mr. Smith chose to translate all the parts of the book that don't relate specifically to Uechi-Ryu technique. The technique portion of the text is heavily illustrated and much of it has already been translated into English. Instead he chose to focus on the bulk of the material which is an amazing historical collection of articles, history, and commentary from a variety of sources.

However on page 755-ish there is the following aricle which I thought, if nothing else, would be an interesting read for those who enjoy anecdotal history that you may never have a chance to verify or cross-reference. Keep in mind that the various names are a literal translation from Japanese by an American living abroad in Hong Kong. The original members of the trip who wrote this article didn't speak Chinese so they were working through a translator. And to top it all off, Kanbun Uechi didn't speak Japanese at all - he spoke Hogen. Such is the stuff legends are made of.

The article discusses the relationship between ShuShiWa and secret religious societies, secret training, lost kata, and fun stuff like that.

Enjoy.
Dana

Quote:

-SHUSHIWA TO SOSHO OSHO-
(SHUSHIWA AND THE CHIEF PRIEST SOSHO)

In 1973 during the 11th month 2nd day the original author of this book during this time along with five other members when to China, Fukien Province and had a round table discussion on Chugoku Kobushi-Ho. These five people talked with the Nanryu Shorin Kobushi group on hand techniques their practices, principles and applications with the local Kobushi-Ho subject matter experts.

The following were individuals who talked in council with the Okinawans: Taiken-San who represented the Koka Kobushi-Ho group and Saikei Gyo-San who represented the Saiributsu Kobushi-Ho group and Oyo Ken-San represented Byakutsuru Kobushi (White Crane)-Ho.

Each one contributed much to the group of Okinawans who represented the Uechi-Ryu system.

They also talked about the specific Manchu era during the year 1727 during the fifth year reign of Yosei there was a group of common people who formed secret religious societies whereby the practiced group drills involving Bujutsu. These people were blocked and told to cease and desist by order of the government. But there was a stipulation that only qualified Kobushi-Ho experts of teachers sanctioned by the government could teach in private but these techniques. The Ming retainers of the former government still had centers of operation during this time causing descent. There center was known as the, [Honshin Fukumei Kakumei Undo or the Anti-Manchu Return to the Ming Revolutionary Movement] Hon meaning anti, Shin meaning Manchu, Fuku to revert or return to, Mei the Ming. This group was starting to wane but was still active during the above period. These radicals during this era were trained in the martial arts.

The base where they gathered to practice at was near Su-Yama where the Shorin-Ji temple was located. Eventually this temple was razed and burnt to the ground. After this the monks scattered to the four winds it was said to avoid prosecution and or death. After this bold move by the administrative Chinese government they applied the same tactics southward razing other temples. These priests never really died out they banded together in smaller less detectable groups and continued to practice the fist way.

One of the High Priests known as an Ochimusha or fugitive warrior succeeded in making it southward to form a new center of operations in order to spread the supreme good of the fist way. The Chief Priests Sosho and Shushiwa were the ones who did this. Sosho and Shushiwa in the later Manchu era came up with the five principles based on five heroes who were famous priests; 1. Gomai Niko, 2. Byakumi Dojin, 3. Madotoku, 4. Shugen Osho, and 5. Myoken.

Now in Fukien Province there was a Kuren-Yama or the 9 Lotus Mountains that was near the Fukien Shorin-Ji Temple being newly built. This place became a historical landmark for Zen priests.

Most importantly is information on the Fukien Shorin-Ji, which was built around 1768 during the 33rd year of Kenryu. Bodai Kairaso Kyo on Daishu also wanted to build a temple for the Kobushi Zen leadership order in order to conduct business. Where this temple was to be placed was at that time was undetermined.

There was a book written about the entrance into the Fukien Shorin-Ji titled Shorin Kobushi Nyumon. This book was written by Shoden Ryuchi and must be seen and researched for more info. There was another writing by Hyosan Shucho titled Chugoku Himitsu Shakai (Chinese Secret Societies), which is of interest. Hyusan was exiled to Japan for his involvement in the Sonbun Kakumei or the Sonbun Revolution. This then led into the Hanshin Fukumei (Anti-Manchu/Restore the Ming) group. They coined the slogan Tenchi-kai (Heaven & Earth Society) or AKA Betsumei no Honmen.

Their chief leader stood up during the Sonbun Kakumei and called for cooperation by the Chinese government in solving issues surrounding this revolution. These writing on Tenchi-Kai were written by a monk at the Fukien Shorin-Ji Yushin Fukumei. There was a Buddhist monument erected in his honor.

Subsequently, the Fukien Shorin-Ji after this writing many revolutions took place concerning the spread of Kobushi-Ho especially the groups operating in the southern regions of China. Many people these days tired of waiting for knowledge and go out and seek it out thru a teacher or written material as is presented here.

Shushiwa or Sosho developed the Shorin-Ji 36 techniques known as Shorin-Ji San-Ju Roku Bokyoren or 36 groups of religious exercises, which led to the Shorin-Ji San-Ju Roku Daiburen Shushi, or the 36 Shorin-Ji great military exercises. Shusiwa [Chu Chi Wo In Chinese] was an authority and a valuable asset to this art form, which was due to an astute consciousness he developed early on.

He was given the eventually the title of Sosho Osho Chief Priest of the Fukien Temple. Next we will look at the genealogy of Kobushi-Ho.

FUKIEN SHORIN TEMPLE
GENEOLOGY:

SHIZEN OSHO - Kokikan
(SUPREME CHIEF PRIEST) - Testu Kyosan
- Hoseo -> Okiko ------>
- Rin Fukusei
SOSHO OSHO - Rikuaei
(CHIEF PRIEST SHUSHIWA?)
- Rinse Ei
1. -----> Okiko- >
- Rinso (1974 Present day Osho)>
- Kohonfu
2. ------> Goboshu- >
- Riku Chifu
- Chinkokufu

The above-mentioned genealogy was just presented and now let’s take a look at one of the figures above, Kokikan. He was a tea Merchant but most importantly he hailed from Fukien Province and studied at the Shorin-Ji under the Shizen Osho and a woman Priestess Hoeishun who also taught him Koka Kobushi-Ho.

Again as another story develops Okiko was invited by a friend a one Mueikyaku to see a demonstration of kicking techniques of Koka Kobushi by a master of these techniques Kokosanfu. Koka Kobushi -Ho was one of the more popular southern styles.

Their techniques it was said were flawless due to the powerful basics they learned early on in their training. Their techniques were solid and well based due to using Atemi no Jiken in their training. The developed the "10 Iron Finger Technique" which also made their techniques effective if not lethal.

From Koka Kobushi they developed Godo or the strength way when they used their techniques in attacks. In their Fist Gate Law techniques they also used Nyu-Ho or the weakness technique in their attacking and defending style. So now you have them using a combination of hard and soft techniques, as did Pangainun and or Uechi-Ryu. This art then evolved into another art developed by the Priestess Eishunji called Eishin Kobushi.

Uechi Kanbun who studied under Shushiwa studied the strength way or Godo and the soft way Nyudo attacking techniques. It was said these attacks were so intense and devastating using Godo but his receiving techniques was soft especially when performing Kata. Go/Nyu together hard & soft can be separated or combined in an instant. When teaching Bujutsu to people was his hobby or occupation. When receiving this training they also received intense spiritual training to center their Wa and be a peace with all. Uechi-Ryu and Kobushi have an exercise that was practiced called the 100 steps to spirituality. The Chinese called it [Pe Fu Shen Chuan] or Hankonan (Half-hard Half Soft).

Now we look at Hyaku-Ho Shin Kobushi techniques or the 100 law spiritual techniques of the fist way. They can be seen weaved into the three Kata; Sanchin, Sanserui, & Suparinpei. Consequently, these three Kata help the body to master these difficult techniques and drills. Sanchin for example as we all know is a very useful basic Kata and tool to help one achieve i.e., assertiveness in ones existence. And eventually by practicing Sanchin one can develop the Hyaku-Ho Shin Kobushi or better known as moving meditation and use it during actual drill or sparring or if need be in an actual fighting scenario. The same can be seen in the other two-advanced Kata's.

Wholly, once these techniques and Kata are learned properly and when one is well versed one can use these in any combination and still be effective.

Uechi Kanbun after returning home to Okinawa still practiced Suparinpei but discontinued it for a variety of reasons. Even to this day this Kata is talked about. Shushiwa's Kobushi-Gi or techniques were flawless and to this day Uechi-Ryu still of this jewel that was Shushiwa.

Without regret some foreigners were taught the precepts of Kobushi-Ho but there was limitations as to what was taught. Uechi Kanbun liked teaching Kata and its variety of techniques. As we know the first three Kata from Uechi-Ryu were based on Kata from Shushiwa's Mon-ha or gate group. There also was some influence in this style from the southern schools or Nanha Kobushi Kakukoka Kobushi also which had much input from students and teachers alike.

The Japanese Ryu's called for a re-name of this system to Uechi-Ryu Karate-Do after much debate it was so decided to allow the name change because of the progress this style had made and of the many positive changes it engendered in the public arena. The former style was passed down thru the oral tradition called Tsugen Kensho.

_________________
Did you show compassion today?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:23 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 17139
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Dana

George has been telling me about these passages from The Blue Book.
Quote:
Now we look at Hyaku-Ho Shin Kobushi techniques or the 100 law spiritual techniques of the fist way. They can be seen weaved into the three Kata; Sanchin, Sanserui, & Suparinpei. Consequently, these three Kata help the body to master these difficult techniques and drills. Sanchin for example as we all know is a very useful basic Kata and tool to help one achieve i.e., assertiveness in ones existence. And eventually by practicing Sanchin one can develop the Hyaku-Ho Shin Kobushi or better known as moving meditation and use it during actual drill or sparring or if need be in an actual fighting scenario. The same can be seen in the other two-advanced Kata's.

Wholly, once these techniques and Kata are learned properly and when one is well versed one can use these in any combination and still be effective.

Uechi Kanbun after returning home to Okinawa still practiced Suparinpei but discontinued it for a variety of reasons. Even to this day this Kata is talked about. Shushiwa's Kobushi-Gi or techniques were flawless and to this day Uechi-Ryu still of this jewel that was Shushiwa.

Without regret some foreigners were taught the precepts of Kobushi-Ho but there was limitations as to what was taught.

Wow!

- Bill


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group