I have this response

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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

That's fine, Jim.

You are however ignoring something here happening over a few tenths of a second. It's the flinch and the transition from the flinch that makes this whole thing what it is.

Way back in Sanchin, they teach you to chamber before thrusting. You load, and then explode. I know it has been argued again and again about how chambering in kata is bad because folks in the MMA don't do this, etc., etc. But this wasn't a sport competition where the brother expected an uncooperative opponent. He was taken by surprise and - for a few tenths of a second - recoiled. It's the transition from the recoil to the explosion down and forward that I find so compelling in this video.

As I said, it's almost as if he meant what he did. IMO, that is pefection.

What gets ignored sometimes in surprise attack situations vs. the sporting arena are all the "unfortunate" things we do when bad things happen without us expecting it. It's like when my beginner white belt slipped trying to do a kick, reached down (like a dummy) and shattered his forearm bones.

The arm reaching out on a fall is a classic low road response. Trying to train not to do anything with that arm, or doing something completely contrary to what the amygdala wants that arm to do is - IMO - like pi$$ing into the wind once you enter the "Surprise!!!" arena. But it doesn't mean you can't "shape it." So with the pi$$ing analogy, it doesn't mean you have to let your badder explode in a windstorm. It just means you need to pi$$ with the wind.

With the ukemi example, you teach people to slap the floor when they fall. Is this because you want them to dissipate energy? Maybe... Truth be told, you probably don't dissapate that much energy with the arm, and that probably won't feel great on a gravel parking lot. But what you ARE doing is giving that arm something to do that is in the flow of what the amygdala wants that arm to do when you slip unexpectedly. If you give it something constructive to do and pull it off, at the very least you keep your arm out of trouble. Cutting the sting on the fall is icing on the cake.

So maybe chambering isn't bad? Certainly the brother chambered here - right through the initial classic low road response of covering against the threat of the thigamabob. And because he did that "chambering" motion, he exploded far more effectively than if he had been spending years trying to squelch what the amygdala wants to do. The only thing he would have accomplished there is perhaps a shorter time to target, but with the antagonist muscles simultaneously being yanked by the amygdala. That doesn't buy him much.

This is a subtle point, Jim, but I believe one that cannot be missed.

- Bill
Stryke

Post by Stryke »

Yup flinching backwards is effective if someones just going BOO !!!

If on the other hand He was getting punched in the snoz himself , the onky thing that would of saved him , was reacting quickly instead of runnng away .

You folks are still under the illusion that a trained fighter can go backwards faster than an aggressive attacker can go forwards .

But good on ya for training , I`ll try not get involved in this thread , it`s been done ...
Last edited by Stryke on Thu Nov 10, 2005 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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JimHawkins
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Post by JimHawkins »

Been there did that.. :lol: 8)

There is a cover that is congruent in WCK.. Not a chamber but a two arm cover that is totally congruent with the flinch and then is trained to transition in the next move into sticking with a control and simultaneous attack. But there is no reverse linier move needed.

Chambering ahhh that's another thread.. No WCK strike is chambered prior to firing it..*** Even in the first third of the first form the fist moves "to the heart" first.. Later it is fired from hands out in front, we say the "fist" must be fired from where it is...and that's how it is used...

****Hand replacement, an inside trapping concept will often set up the next hit by replacing the hitting hands last contact point with the hand next to hit on opponent's lever ensuring good space for power generation, in that sense there is chambering but the hands are still out in front.

So to sum up.. Minimize recognition and reaction with sound perceptual and problem solving concepts; Train a tactically advantageous flinch that INSTANTLY flows into attack and you have made the "least" of the flinch and the most of counter offensive reaction.
Last edited by JimHawkins on Thu Nov 10, 2005 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Stryke wrote:
You folks are still under the illusion that a trained fighter can go backwards faster than an aggressive attacker can go forwards .
To whom are you talking to, Marcus? Please quote the statement you are addressing. Otherwise, I can't see the relevance of this statement.

- Bill
Stryke

Post by Stryke »

I know you cant Bill , i think it stands on it`s own ...

i`m out mate , no point fanning the flames on this one .

It`s all IMHO
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Now we are getting somewhere, Jim. 8)
Jim wrote:
There is a cover that is congruent in WCK.. Not a chamber but a two arm cover that is totally congruent with the flinch and then is trained to transition in the next move into sticking with a control and simultaneous attack.

Just stop right there, Jim, and we are fine. Injecting statements I never said pollutes and destroys the discussion.

Jim wrote:
Chambering ahhh that's another thread.. No WCK strike is chambered prior to firing it..
Did I learn the wrong Sil Lum Tau?
Jim wrote:
Even in the first third of the first form the fist moves "to the heart" first.. Later it is fired from hands out in front, we say the "fist" must be fired from where it is...and that's how it is used...

To what end? What are you trying to accomplish? What are you trying to optimize?

I believe if you answer that question, then the discussion can get more interesting... 8)
Jim wrote:
So to sum up.. Minimize recognition and reaction with sound perceptual and problem solving concepts; Train a tactically advantageous flinch that INSTANTLY flows into attack and you have made the "least" of the flinch and the most of counter offensive reaction.
And this is where I disagree. I believe that - if possible - you should make the MOST of what your body naturally will do (the flinch). Perhaps semantics? For me, no. It's why I spend so much on kata flow, plyometric training, and Olympic lifts.

At least we know where our thinking departs.

- Bill
Last edited by Bill Glasheen on Thu Nov 10, 2005 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by JimHawkins »

Stryke wrote: You folks are still under the illusion that a trained fighter can go backwards faster than an aggressive attacker can go forwards .
AND

That a person can best recover from a non stop attack by generating reverse momentum...
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Once again, to whom are you addressing this statement? It does not follow from this discussion.

Work with what people are saying, please, rather than projecting a position on "whomever" that the person you are talking with didn't state or doesn't own.

- Bill
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Just something to ponder...

Why would we try to minimize a response that got us through tens of thousands of years of evolution? What do you know that is superior to natural selection?

We need to be careful. Yes, sometimes a moth predictably will fly into a flame. But absent artificial means to take advantage of natural responses (which is what we martial artists do... :twisted: ), I think it's probably wise to understand and work with what the reptilian brain has genetically been selected to do.

- Bill
Stryke

Post by Stryke »

forget it . Happy training all ...
Last edited by Stryke on Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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JimHawkins
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Post by JimHawkins »

There is a cover that is congruent in WCK.. Not a chamber but a two arm cover that is totally congruent with the flinch and then is trained to transition in the next move into sticking with a control and simultaneous attack.
Bill Glasheen wrote: Just stop right there, Jim, and we are fine. Injecting statements I never said pollutes and destroys the discussion.
No words in your mouth just from mine.. As in the SPEAR system and others the last part of this technique "no reverse movement" is critical as the move uses contact.. In other words all of our "stuff" works the same way KISS... Contact, control, attack..
Chambering ahhh that's another thread.. No WCK strike is chambered prior to firing it..
Bill Glasheen wrote: Did I learn the wrong Sil Lum Tau?
Siu = Little
Lim = Idea
Tao = Way

Could be.. Ler's see a clip... :)

Even in the first third of the first form the fist moves "to the heart" first.. Later it is fired from hands out in front, we say the "fist" must be fired from where it is...and that's how it is used...

Bill Glasheen wrote: To what end? What are you trying to accomplish? What are you trying to optimize?

I believe if you answer that question, then the discussion can get more interesting... 8)
Centerline Occupation.. :lol: Appropriate WCK proverb: Attacking hand defends.. :D

The only fists are at the very beginning and at the end of the form, with all other strikes in the form open hands. Hmmm.

Check out where the last three punches come from... The last moves just before the last three punches start, is about hand replacement but at the end one hand should be down in a gum or gong sao <low block> :roll: while the other makes the fist and fires. Note this position is a simultaneous block strike but the position and use of the open hands and fists clearly shows you the operative locations of the hands when hitting without chamber.
Bill Glasheen wrote: I believe that - if possible - you should make the MOST of what your body naturally will do (the flinch). Perhaps semantics? For me, no. It's why I spend so much on kata flow, plyometric training, and Olympic lifts.
To make the most one must make the most attack..

Our plyometric training happens in chi sao when the big guy decides to get stiff and come in full boar on you... :lol:
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Jim

In chain punching, are you not chambering? There most definitely is a back/forward motion. The only thing disguising it is the other hand going out. But all martial artists do that at some point.
Jim wrote:
To make the most one must make the most attack
In numbers? Total energy? First to arrive? Effectiveness?

It's a fact of nature that you cannot optimize for everything. Again, that's where it gets interesting, and where reasonable people can depart in their principles of fighting and/or means to get there.

And of course this all is situational. What we are talking about here is not classroom, and is not sport. The flinch is a given. Now what?
Jim wrote:
Our plyometric training happens in chi sao when the big guy decides to get stiff and come in full boar on you... :lol:
Works for me!

Truth be told, I have an exercise I do with the advanced ukemi students. I have them go back and forth doing dive rolls with a 180 spin on the end. They come up on and lean back on the person who receives them, and hurls them forward. They then dive roll and spin onto the arms of the other person who sends them back from whence they came. Three people get a really good workout. It teaches some pretty valuable neromuscular reflexes and "muscle memory."

- Bill
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Post by JimHawkins »

Bill Glasheen wrote: In chain punching, are you not chambering? There most definitely is a back/forward motion. The only thing disguising it is the other hand going out. But all martial artists do that at some point.
When I say Chamber <for a fist> I am talking about an actual "proper chamber" fist in armpit stuff. The forms in WCK are considered very progressive by some for not using these kinds of chambers anywhere. That first move where the fist is chambered and then moved to the heart is SLT thumbing its nose at the traditional chamber... :)

Actually the chamber you speak of which is the retraction in the chain punches should only be as large as the elastic snap and drop that the punch itself creates.. The total retraction distance should be just behind and under the "extended" fist. This means that there should be no use of the bicep whatsoever and if done right you will get a natural and fluid micro retraction that feeds the forward flow.

You may have missed this... Not sure if it is clear though.
Hand replacement, an inside trapping concept will often set up the next hit by replacing the hitting hands last contact point with the hand next to hit on opponent's lever ensuring good space for power generation, in that sense there is chambering but the hands are still out in front.
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

It's all relative to me. Look at two white belts doing kotekitae and they move the arm a lot but the body not at all. Look at George do kotekitae. He cheats!! :twisted: He does it all with his body, and there is no perceptible bending of the elbow. This is just rounding out the edges of the concept.

Watch any boxer do a series of techniques. They chamber - period. No, they don't do a "classroom chamber" any more than you bench press your punch or squat your kicks even though you may find a bench and a squat to be useful.

Watch the brother move his arm. Again, it is beautiful. You cannot argue with success, nor can you argue with his ability to flow from flinch to bash. The hand goes through various "transition points" (a classic flinch, then what looks close to a classic chamber). But he doesn't freeze anywhere except briefly where he appears to be storing/generating energy via muscle stretching and firing of neuromuscular reflexes. Then the fist explodes out.

It is what it is, and I see "familiar territory."

Very often in complex moves that students have a devil of a time doing, I will break things down into little pieces and even freeze at the transitions. But then you reconstruct back to the fluid whole.

I will get my Sil Lim Tao book and find some of those classic "chamber" positions. It's just more fluid, Jim, but it's still there. It's just the method of teaching (the finger) and not the desired end (the moon).

- Bill
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Do you see the classic chamber?

Image

While the right hand is firing, it feeds energy into the "loading" of the left. See how much that left elbow is bent?

It's very similar to how a semiautomatic weapon works. One round feeds part of its energy into loading (yes, chambering) the next round.

The only difference with the Brother is that he used the flinch (rather than a weak-a$$ed jab) to load a big mother of a nose basher.

- Bill
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