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Stryke

Post by Stryke »

The Brother pulled off quite effectively, and how/why he managed to do that.
He mangaed to do it because his attacker wasnt attacking him and was just a dude in a funny costume . :silly:
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Van Canna
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Post by Van Canna »

The very best way to ‘drill’ is to practice pressure AKA _ SPATIAL INVASION_ you crowd your partner and angle for an advantage using footwork, slipping, body English and dominance.

Once you ‘embed’ these concepts they will ‘become you’ even as you flinch. Maloney is the master at this. Combined with ‘warp speed’ and ‘short stroke’ hammer_ you got the picture.

Objective: shock/mechanical disruption_ as opposed to trying to ‘cause pain’ _ because in a fight numbness quickly overcomes pain.

Example of mechanical disruption I teach is to ‘invade space’ by covering up_ shin blade kick to inside of opponent’s leg_ as he recoils and shifts legs, you shin blade kick the inside of the other leg like chopping a tree down_ then bring your elbows into play to finish.
Van
Stryke

Post by Stryke »

:D

love it Van !!!
Guest

Post by Guest »

Laird oozes Jimmy Maloney attitude that ferocious intent Ive unfortunatley only seen on video . He woke me up real fast to little love taps
Thats one of the nicest things anyone has ever said about me. :) Now cut the crap , because I'm not gonna feed you any better when you get here mate, :splat: no matter what you say on the net. :lol:
He managed to do it because his attacker wasnt attacking him and was just a dude in a funny costume.
Puts it in a different perspective doesn't it. I beat the crap out of Mr. pumpkin head while he sat in a chair :roll:

But Bills right you can flinch forward. If you train a mindset to enter, you will. I almost wasted a guy when I walked through the house of horors at a fair. The guy fired up a chain saw and came at us from behind just as we were walking out of the trailer. (No chain in the saw) The first shot missed, second would have messed him up as I had him was pinned to the wall. I kind of figuired it out half way through that he wasn't trying to harm me.


I guess Bill and I agree. You can go forward in moments of stress. But if you train to not engage, then that is what you might do.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Nov 11, 2005 5:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Stryke

Post by Stryke »

because I'm not gonna feed you any better when you get here mate

Ahhh well that didnt work .... hey just because I said you got the attitude doenst mean you pull it off !!!


Feel Better !! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :twisted: :splat:
Guest

Post by Guest »

Absolutely!
fivedragons
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Post by fivedragons »

"It`s not a threat it`s a challenge !!"

Yeah Marcus, that's is indeed what alot of people in the world think right before they try to victimize someone. Too bad for them. :twisted: :evil: :twisted: :evil: :twisted:

Fine with me. :lol:

There is something a lot worse than either. :evilbat:

On a lighter note, it is good to know that if I ever feel threatened by some psychopath trained in karate, all I have to do is yell boo, open my knife, and they will do the rest. :wink:
Stryke

Post by Stryke »

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

youve got a knife , your ahead of most of the karate folks and there fancy belts right there ...
fivedragons
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Post by fivedragons »

youve got a knife , your ahead of most of the karate folks and there fancy belts right there ...
________________

Actually I don't carry a knife anymore. I've been salivating over the Emerson Kerambit though. :lol: I'm going through a "no symbol of preconceived death and horror" phase right now. I don't like the fact that I salivate over a kerambit. :? From training with the knife, I've found that there are arteries that can be accessed by the teeth, which better fits into my "holistic self defense paradigm" :lol:

And by the way a belt, fancy or not, can be used for alot more than holding your pants up, lowering your coffin into the ground, and looking like a mucky-muck. :lol:

P.S. Teeth though much overlooked wrt natural defenses, can't do things like sever the spinal cord and slit open the abdomen, or reach deeper arteries. Personally, I think it would be easier and more natural to bite off someone's nose. After all, I just want to defend loved ones from evil fuc* heads, not learn how to be an assassin. :evil:
Last edited by fivedragons on Fri Nov 11, 2005 8:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
Stryke

Post by Stryke »

Ahh but you see a knifes not a symbol of death , but one of hope , one of humanity and triumph , of freedom , of claiming the tooth that mother nature so cruely denied ....

I`m a spydey freak , i understand the addoction , though spyderco says something incredibly clinical about my disposition ....

I`m sure theres a pshyce report in that somewhere .... :multi:

It`s like Glock over M1911a1 .... :lol: :lol:
fivedragons
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Post by fivedragons »

There's a korean knife form I learnt that looks totally stilted and contrived. Even has jumping! :lol: Thing is, every move is targeted to an organ or artery. :lol:

The opening movement looks like everyone's worst nightmare of bullsh*t fancy dancing, until you visualize a sentry dog lunging for the left forearm sacrifice.... :wink:
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JimHawkins
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Re: The discussion is interesting

Post by JimHawkins »

Van Canna wrote: The idea is very old and integral to many Indonesian, Malaysian, Chinese and Filipino fighting systems. In fact, this position is literally "Introduction to angles 101."

Putting this structure in front of you and charging forward was aptly described as "rudimentary silat."

No matter what you call it or where you got it from, what is important, is that the principle works for altering your opponent's orientation and off-balancing him.

The truth is, however, if you think that is effective, wait until you get to the good stuff. With a little bit of practice you can spin an opponent like a cue ball with english and put him exactly where you want him.


Your body movement in combination of your hand work creates a multi-directional force that disrupts your opponent's structure.

The end effect is you move him in such a way that -- for the next second -- he must be more concerned with staying upright and/or reorienting on you than launching another attack.

It sounds simple, but unless you consciously work at learning how to move in this manner you will not get it. But once you see the effectiveness and ease of combining forces like this you will never go back to doing things the old hard way.
This is what chi sao is all about and why there was so much emphasis placed on this training. Not mentioned is that the energy and sensitivity may be used with a simple energy strategy <perception/reaction> that allows this programming to bypass cognitive awareness for near instant adaptation to an opponent's energy "error."

One of the "rules" of CMA according to Dr. Yang Jwing Ming is that when attacking CMA must issue energy.. This means that there can be no lapse in force/pressure once there is contact, this force is normally aimed or vectored into the CG of the opponent. The "initiation" of this force, alluded to in the above quote, was present in the attack on the jab we did, because of the energy vector into the center of gravity it causes a disruption in balance, then we maintain pressure and control.. Later would come changes.. But the first part was to connect and affect “the hiccup”:
Van Canna wrote: As long as these are the results, then the odds are that the person will continue to attack.

On the other hand, when the person throws a punch and is suddenly whirled around hurled off balance and finds himself facing another direction it causes a mental hiccup as he attempts to deal with all these unexpected results.

On a physical level, were he be allowed to, he would have to regain his balance, reorient himself and then continue attack. On a mental level all this confusion keeps him from noticing that you are putting him into a position that prevents him from continuing to resist.
Shaolin
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"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

A few observations...

1) You can dis The Brother's puny challenge if you want. Truth be told, all we see is a "Boo!!!" and that is it. No follow-up attack. However... The whole point of thread was to observe and analyze a genuine attack flowing out of a flinch.

If you think this doesn't work with a committed attacker throwing multiple techniques, well... You think what you think. Maybe it will and maybe it won't. Maybe it depends.

My personal experience working with this reaction is that when that scenario DID happen to me (the person got 3 hits on me), that "it" still happened. "It" still involvd a non-thinking process. "It" scares the schit out of me because I don't know where it comes from. I can theorize...

I can only guess about the film clip. However I put my money on The Brother handling the multiple attack situation pretty much the same way. Three hits, a couple of stabs, whatever... If you don't break this guy's foundation (which of course can be done if you know what you are doing and are good), the schit is going to rain down. Yea, I want this fellow as MY wing man. 8)

Yea, yea, artificial situation, yada, yada, yada.

This in engineering would be a classic system response to an impulse. It's like hitting a drum with a stick to see what it sounds like. It tells you a lot about the drum.

Sleep on this, guys. It's pretty fascinating. There's more here than you think. I'd love to put 100 people (most especially some folks I know... :wink: ) through a test like this where they truly don't know what the heck this thing is charging at them, and see the response. I'm betting we could tell a lot. 8)

It's fun being a cyber warrior. It's another thing altogether to see an authentic "Boo!!" response. :lol:

2) What I find fascinating sometimes when people see something printed that they like is that they see what they do in it and claim it as their own. Go figure...

But you know what? Why not?? If it works and you can make it work, go for it! 8)

3) It's my strong opinion that the method of doom doesn't mean too terribly much. At the end of the day, what matters most is execution. I've just seen too many good people (and way too many not-so-good-ones) across the entire martial spectrum.

- Bill
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Van Canna
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Post by Van Canna »

Bill,

Not sure if we are in agreement or disagreement in this dicussion. I find your post interesting.

I also find this other discussion of interest


The S.P.E.A.R. SYSTEM™ represents the only fully ambidextrous CQC tactic and does not require the operator to slow down or stutter step to line up a kick or strike.

The "cowcatcher" is a symmetrical response, which does not rely on "sided-ness". The target area is high leading center-of-mass (coincides with shooting doctrine), and the palms are used with full extension of the arms.

The head lowers between the two extended arms, affording protection and streamlining the posture. It appears that you are "diving" into the opponent, and the forward-leaning attitude you assume produces the same bracing effect as using a chair underneath a doorknob.

You are then in a position to initiate forward drive, or "ride" the incoming charge of the opponent slightly backward without being knocked over. Many options for follow-up present themselves from this position, and can be dictated by your dept's use-of-force/suspect-control policies.

I followed the natural tendency for the surprised "target" to square off against an imminent threat (iso shooting stance, anyone?), just as a deer turns to look into the headlights of an oncoming car.

Development of the cowcatcher (named after the metal apparatus on the front of train engines) continued with thousands of iterations of sucker-punch/surprise attack, etc. scenarios, including being "jumped" while engaged in a typical field interview.

The use of our Bulletman suit has solidified the value of the symmetrical approach by highlighting the indifference of the technique to the orientation of the incoming threat.

The use of the extended arms/palms to impact the opponent follows the natural urge to push a threat away, and the resultant structure also provides head protection, as well as "hollowing" the body against a possible edged weapon attack.

The most vascular targets are covered: brachial region, face, inside of arms..... And the abdomen is difficult to reach with a blade as well. A wide spectrum of combative strikes is available from this position, as well as many of the standard restraint/control tactics.

At the risk of being flamed, I will mention an interesting take on the same concept. It is simply called the wedge and comes from Chris Clugstan of Comhrac Bas fame (or infamy).


It is less a jam and more of an escape but it is a classic triangular wedge aimed at the left shoulder as you drive through and past the BG. If you hit the left shoulder on a right punch the guy as almost no choice but to spin off balance giving you the chance to escape and on the ten percent chance he is a lefty, you will jam the shoulder.

Everything else Lee mentioned about a wedge applies such as the shoulders and arms protecting the head, the two hands supporting each other.

From my perspective, Blauer's not so much emphasizing the ability to implant a trained response during a thalamus-amygdala hijacking as much as he seems to be using the instinctive covering & protective motion of the arms during the body alarm reaction to chamber the SPEAR.


The SPEAR in this interpretation would remain a trained response, but it would be one of the first available and most logical responses that would be present as the neocortex came back into the loop; the speed of the SPEAR would come from the piggybacking of a simple, trainable response onto an unattainable-but-extremely-reliable one.

In talking to Rich Dimitri, a former student of Blauer's and now heading up Senshido, he talked about binding a technique like the SPEAR to the startle flinch reaction.


If you remember back a while there was a large discussion that discussed whether or not the Vertical elbow shield or a Spear type maneuver was a real flinch.


The argument being made was that "you can't flinch forward". I argued that in training you drive forward every time, even though you can't flinch forward.

The concept being that if the cover closely resembles a flinch (which both the spear and the VES do) then you could quickly transition from the flinch to the technique.
What do you make of the concepts?
Van
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gmattson
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Post by gmattson »

point in this discussion is that much of Tony's work involves LEO type training, where you are "entering" a dangerous situation and you know you are going to be attacked.

Responding to this is not a "flinch" situation, even though people routinely refer to all forward movements using the "wedge" / Seisan bent arm "spear" to the face movement as a "flinch" response.
GEM
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