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JimHawkins
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Post by JimHawkins »

Bill Glasheen wrote: I will get my Sil Lim Tao book and find some of those classic "chamber" positions. It's just more fluid, Jim, but it's still there. It's just the method of teaching (the finger) and not the desired end (the moon).
Now you're just playing semantic games and your on my turf. :)

The whole idea is to minimize time to target and maximize continuity of attack and time in contact, in addition to centerline occupation, conservation of motion and energy that’s what’s in the form.

There are five fist punches in the first form... None are done from under the armpit.. Most of the open hand strikes fire from ¾ fully extended structural positions. If you want to say that a scant few inches of elastic retraction or hitting from an extended bridge position <tan> a "chamber" then by all means, but it misses the whole point of the form and the system.

Try initiating even a tiny chamber while sticking in chi sao with someone decent and see what happens.. :twisted:
Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Jim wrote:
while sticking
Are you trying to tell me that your entire martial art system is predicated upon sticking? If so, fine. But don't expect to survive a multiple opponent encounter.

Somehow I don't think you really mean that. But as you said, I'm on your turf. By all means, I will spot you your style of Wing Chun. 8)

Meanwhile what any Wing Chun practitioner does or does not do is moot here. What does matter for this thread is what The Brother pulled off quite effectively, and how/why he managed to do that.

- Bill
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JimHawkins
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Post by JimHawkins »

Bill Glasheen wrote: Are you trying to tell me that your entire martial art system is predicated upon sticking? If so, fine. But don't expect to survive a multiple opponent encounter.
This just shows that you don't understand what sticking means.. WCK does not chase hands... Hmmm how does that jive with a focus on sticking....? Woooosh...

In a multiple threat situation you better take them out that much faster and backing up won't get it by a long shot.. Uechikido or not.

I'm outsky... ;)
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"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Why are you backing up, Jim? :wink:

Image

- Bill
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JimHawkins
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Post by JimHawkins »

Bill Glasheen wrote:Why are you backing up, Jim? :wink:
I'll let you guess..

1. Because I sense a multiple threat situation coming and I know the safest place to be is with my back up against the wall..

2. Because a gust of hot wind put me there as in the photo.

3. Because discussions here in the fantasy land forum always deteriorate into the same fact denying, finger vs. moon, duck vs. dog, hammer/nail, none of the above, dead lifting, nonsensical reverse space race and I've been there, did that, so many times before that I, and everyone else, already know all possible endings to the discussion; None of which have anything to do with intellectual honesty, logic, truth, honor or martial revelation..... ;)
Shaolin
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"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
Stryke

Post by Stryke »

Be carefull waht you ask for Bill :)

all the Brother did was smack someone in the face , nothing more.

I agree with Jim on this one , I`m continually amazed by this obsession with distance ...
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Van Canna
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The discussion is interesting

Post by Van Canna »

However no one is addressing this_
CONVENTIONAL SYSTEMS

Muscle-memory model for learning and deploying techniques. An assumption that space exists (reactionary gap) or the space can be created (almost all DT systems recommend creating space at the first sign of a furtive gesture).

Some of you might recognize this concept as Tony Blauer's "Spear," we prefer Bob Orlando's term, and call it the "Wedge".

The idea is very old and integral to many Indonesian, Malaysian, Chinese and Filipino fighting systems. In fact, this position is literally "Introduction to angles 101."

Putting this structure in front of you and charging forward was aptly described as "rudimentary silat."

No matter what you call it or where you got it from, what is important, is that the principle works for altering your opponent's orientation and off-balancing him.

The truth is, however, if you think that is effective, wait until you get to the good stuff. With a little bit of practice you can spin an opponent like a cue ball with english and put him exactly where you want him.


Your body movement in combination of your hand work creates a multi-directional force that disrupts your opponent's structure.

The end effect is you move him in such a way that -- for the next second -- he must be more concerned with staying upright and/or reorienting on you than launching another attack.

It sounds simple, but unless you consciously work at learning how to move in this manner you will not get it. But once you see the effectiveness and ease of combining forces like this you will never go back to doing things the old hard way.

A prime example of this kind of thinking is if someone throws a punch. Under normal circumstances one of two things will happen, either it will miss entirely or it will land.

In the latter case, the only thing that changes is the degree of the hit, because the physics of a block still constitutes a "hit."

As long as these are the results, then the odds are that the person will continue to attack.

On the other hand, when the person throws a punch and is suddenly whirled around hurled off balance and finds himself facing another direction it causes a mental hiccup as he attempts to deal with all these unexpected results.

On a physical level, were he be allowed to, he would have to regain his balance, reorient himself and then continue attack. On a mental level all this confusion keeps him from noticing that you are putting him into a position that prevents him from continuing to resist.

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I find this very interesting and thought provoking.
Van
Stryke

Post by Stryke »

Hey Van great post .

I think this relates very Much to what Jim calls sticking .

allowing the energy to be recieved and redirected and manipulated , rather than having no affect on the oponent .

little hooks of the wrist or grab etcs , redirecting blows , allowing the feel so if theres alack of pressure you already know where the opening exists . And if there continued pressure you know how you can manipulate the opponent .

I did an interesting drill with one of the guys .. I allowed to hit me full force while I rested my wrists on his forearms .

he could hit me as hard as he wanted (didnt allow the face ... i`m too pretty :lol: ) , I wasnt able to retaliate with strikes .

It was incredibly difficult to get a blow in i`d call disruptive . , just a little deflection or even allowing a direct hit , the little power you can absorb through your arms makes ahuge difference in the force felt and the velocity of the strike .

It`s a fun expirement ...
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Post by fivedragons »

Muscle-memory model for learning and deploying techniques. An assumption that space exists (reactionary gap) or the space can be created (almost all DT systems recommend creating space at the first sign of a furtive gesture).


Three dimensional circular motion and footwork trained to manifest with instinctive (empty of attack/defend dichotomy) reaction:

"On the other hand, when the person throws a punch and is suddenly whirled around hurled off balance and finds himself facing another direction it causes a mental hiccup as he attempts to deal with all these unexpected results."

On a physical level, were he be allowed to, he would have to regain his balance, reorient himself and then continue attack. On a mental level all this confusion keeps him from noticing that you are putting him into a position that prevents him from continuing to resist.
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Last edited by fivedragons on Fri Nov 11, 2005 4:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Van Canna
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Post by Van Canna »

Good post Marcus. There is so much to learn.

I was at a seminar by Blauer at Gary Khoury's dojo, and he has this concept of 'nearest weapon to target' fires even if not a 'stopping blow' initially_ but a set up for it.

Very interesting.

Strategic back up is useful as well. In my fights with Joe Sherrin at the Boston Dojo [ Shorin stylist/ex middleweight boxer] I would stick to his 'lunging jabs' or 'falling crosses' then back up and spin him into the wall behind me.
Van
Stryke

Post by Stryke »

why spend 99 % of your training studying what happens the moment before you fight ? .

Good stuff Van , rick and Laird helped me learn Closet weapon closest target .

I always relied on big power shots , very shotokan , and very tournament stuff .

the fact is I could of drop two or sometmes three extra shots in along with them , offsetting the opponent , and making way for the big guns .

Laird oozes Jimmy Malone attitude that ferocious intent Ive unfortunatley only seen on video . He woke me up real fast to little love taps :)

putting the Kung Fu back in karate , loose , fluid and with attitude .
fivedragons
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Post by fivedragons »

why spend 99 % of your training studying what happens the moment before you fight

Because if isn't a "fight", you will be dead.

My perspective is that every single movement in every form I practice, is what happens before the fight. In fact, there is no "fight" in reality, only survival. "There is no first strike in karate."

Thanks for a very thought provoking question, bro.
Last edited by fivedragons on Fri Nov 11, 2005 5:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Stryke

Post by Stryke »

o ... k , so we study martial ats for when we dont get killed by surpise and it`s a play fight ... got ya .

I want to live in this world of luxury and warning , any seats left ?

My perspective is every move is a reaction to already being attacked .

EDITED

Apologies for the sarcasim , different paradigm is all , long day ...
fivedragons
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Post by fivedragons »

That's not what I meant, but I just can't express it any better right now. Sorry. :cry:
Stryke

Post by Stryke »

Dont be sorry I see your point in a sense . Covers , guards awareness , are all crucial in the continuim , I just like to go when it`s go .... :D 8)

It`s not a threat it`s a challenge !!

enjoy your posts !!
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