Sorry, another no-touch video

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fivedragons
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Post by fivedragons »

I like the diagram, but what does it mean?

And now for something completely different.

Karate brought me to a point that I could understand chi kung (mushin). Chi kung brought me to the point where I could understand sitting meditation (zanshin), Sitting meditation brought me to the point where I could understand the power of prayer ( guided meditation).

None of this is magical, or has any bearing on what anyone does around me, but it has fundamentally changed the way that I live my life.

Here's an analogy: If all I knew about meditation was that it was supposed to enable me to levitate four feet off the ground, I would probably try to meditate as hard as I could for as long as I could, until I burned out and gave it up.

Now, I'm not saying that meditation won't enable me to levitate four feet off the ground when I'm 110 years old. Maybe I will, but that's not why I do it. I meditate because it helps me to see the world as it really is, without emotion and left over thoughts from the past clouding my perceptions and actions.

If everyone in the world learned how to practice the most basic and simple form of meditation there is ( zanshin), from childhood on, there would probably not be much need for prozac and other drugs dealing with ADD etc. , not a whole lot of neuroses, and anxiety.

But there is this artificial perception that "esoteric" disciplines are bullsh#t because in reality, they won't let you meditate four feet off the ground.

Chi kung is not practiced in order for you to knock people down and play with people as puppets for your mind, but rather as a way to learn about your body, mind and spirit, and how to bring them all into alignment. It really pisses me off, that when I talk about this sh#t, I know that everyone is laughing and falling asleep because the only thing anyone knows about chi kung is that it won't help you knock people down with your mind.

:evil:

:lol:

What if you where told that the purpose of kata was to learn a set routine of movements in order to defeat 50 people with machine guns. All you had to do was perform the kata and you would survive the hail of gunfire.

What a bunch of fuc#ing bullshit, and kata would become some kind of insane practice in the minds of most rational people.

When I read the "modern scientific anti-traditional martial arts" theories of those people who are now training the military and police forces of the world, all I see is a bunch of reworded explanations for why people should actually practice and respect the "traditional" paradigms of discipline and spirituality.

You know how fuc#ing funny it is to hear people who put karate and kung fu down as some kind of fantasy, and then they start talking about the very aspects of it that no one wants to learn or pass on, like self hypnosis, spirituality, imagination, self realization, etc, etc....

You see no one wants to talk about the fact that people are actually much more than a bunch of muscles and bones tied on a computer. It's only sexy when you use modern commando counter-espionage lingo.

If I ever teach karate to anyone, and that's a big if, the very first thing I will teach is sitting and counting the breath, the next will be chi kung. Maybe that way I won't end up with a bunch of retarded as$holes who will use what I've taught them to f#ck up the world even more than it already is. :lol:

(The preceding rant DOES NOT apply to anyone here, but you have to admit there is a lot ignorance and B.S. in the world of martial arts today. Rule number one in spiritual law: Do not put down what someone else does, as a way to make a name for yourself. I didn't make this law up, it is just the way it is, call it karma or whatever.)
Last edited by fivedragons on Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Stryke

Post by Stryke »

8)
fivedragons
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Post by fivedragons »

You know, it even gets funnier, if you could imagine that, that there are all these weird traditional practices all around the world that are not "karate". They all deal with the imagination, endocrine system, subconcious, and what not. :lol:

They all address the value of humility, compassion, faith, physical health, gratitude, directed intent etc.....

They are considered as "magic", but they are really the bedrock that the world as we now know it is built on.

The only difference is in the language. :lol:

It's like if someone came up to you and asked "what STYLE of human being are you?"
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

Quote
"It comes solely from training in isolation .

unless you open your feild of experience there is little way of telling where you stand .

Could be the qi gong is great and the wing chun is crap etc , without perspective and outside experience youd never know ."
Training in isolation is a good thing, but I don't think that is the case here.....I think this guy has had his stuff validated in some way, maybe by pupils or maybe he learned it off someone else who he believed in. Which is what we all do :roll:

with the Qi-Gong, the only claim that they make at my school is that it makes you healthy, and gives you longevity :D .so it's kinda hard to prove :? ...........there was a guy on TV recently here who lived to be 100 and said he did everything wrong, he drank and smoked etc...so maybe that could be given as the reason for his long years :lol: .....it's just so difficult to prove...on the other hand Wing-Chun is easy to prove, as is any martial art you've just got to fight folks :lol: .I've tried it on a few people and it works right out of the box :wink:
Stryke

Post by Stryke »

Training in isolation is a good thing, but I don't think that is the case here.....I think this guy has had his stuff validated in some way, maybe by pupils or maybe he learned it off someone else who he believed in. Which is what we all do
this is what I mean by training in isolation , not getting out of your small pond .

students dont validate your material , instructors dont , there susceptable to the myth a cult of personality etc , train with other stylists , train with folks who dont expect you to be good , then youll see what works and doesnt .

not many think they can beat there instructor , reality is lots of students have a good shot of beating there instructors if they have the right mental attitude .

why is this ?

why do folks have such a hard time seperating the skills and the myth and the reality of violence ?
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

Quote
"why do folks have such a hard time seperating the skills and the myth and the reality of violence "

Well the main thing is that the folks who perpetuate myths have never been in a real fight, I've seen this right across the board. even folks doing stuff that the general martial arts comunity think is good.like high kicks and back spinning kicks.never realising that they would be better off with a good low front kick :D ......I've been guity of this myself :oops: ...........I've also been ridiculed for doing so many styles :lol: .but that is the only way you learn...I'd say that 10 blue belts in different styles are better than a 10th dan in one :lol: .a black belt won't help you in a streetfight, not even a 10 th dan , the only thing that will help you is your skill level and your fitness level.
Boxing pretty much beats everything I've seen in MA's......and one thing folks say is that there is no bad styles and it's the guy behind the style :roll: .that is such rubbish..........I don't think anybody could make the no touch stuff work, and that is a style :wink:
Bruise* Lee
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Post by Bruise* Lee »

jorvik wrote:Well the main thing is that the folks who perpetuate myths have never been in a real fight, I've seen this right across the board. even folks doing stuff that the general martial arts comunity think is good.like high kicks and back spinning kicks.never realising that they would be better off with a good low front kick
I think alot of the myths in martial arts have evolved because of actual fights. Some pretty crazy things happen in fights - Hypothetical ex. the guy intends to throw a punch but due to loss of motor control as a result of all the adrenaline flowing he accidentally hits the guy with his bent wrist (koken) instead - and it knocks the guy out - and next thing you know he is teaching his "system" of martial arts (mantis or what have you) that uses the bent wrist, and he promotes it as the new magical can't fail system.

I saw a convenience store security film the other day, this old lady was shopping - pushing a shopping cart, a guy stabs her in the neck and she keeps walking like nothign happened - and the knife is sticking several inches into her neck. At the check out the cashier tells her she has a knife in her neck. People can take a lot more punishment than is commonly believed - any of Dr.Sacharnoski's students will tell you that - but this lady could have easily promoted some sort of qigong seminar afterwards about how you can take knife strikes painlessly through whatever : breath control, prayer, meditation, thinking nasty thoughts.

Because of the unpredictable nature of combat so many weird things have happened - guys have been shot numerous times and done just fine, knocked someone out with a fingertip strike, guided by some divine force to dodge a bullet literally, toe kick to the thigh kills a man, they wave their hand and the person falls unconscious etc - and based on these one time events a whole mythology evolves.

I think many of the myths developed BECAUSE of real fights - its the very lack of control that results in non-reproducible outcomes, and history becomes his-story. MMA, NHB and cage matches give us more of a scientific environment to analyze "best" techniques, but real life attacks are not well represented by these sporting events.
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

Quote

"Because of the unpredictable nature of combat so many weird things have happened - guys have been shot numerous times and done just fine, knocked someone out with a fingertip strike, guided by some divine force to dodge a bullet literally, toe kick to the thigh kills a man, they wave their hand and the person falls unconscious etc - and based on these one time events a whole mythology evolves."
Yeah I wouldn't disagree with that, and I'm not excluding the possibility that there isn't some element of truth behind the No-Touch knockout or knockdown/empty force whathaveyou :)

Things get twisted in the telling. I have been shown how to fight with a blindfold, and how to throw someone with a shout.both very physical real techniques. You need contact with the shout-throw..but I can see that there would be a possibilty of just throwing with a shout :) .....now these moves sound as mystical as hell, and I can see how something in Qi-gong could be misinterpereted or misrepresented.
Just look at body conditioning in Uechi......it never held the place that most folks believe it did, it was never done to the extent it is done now..and most probably there was a different belief system operating as well :wink:

so something that was a lot more mystical could certainly get misunderstood
MikeK
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Post by MikeK »

What about the following? I'm not questioning that they do it but I'm dubious about their explanation of how they do it. Bruce could you fill us in?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1416IQdci6w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJqBk8JD4Ho&NR
I was dreaming of the past...
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mhosea
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Post by mhosea »

From what I hear, people high on PCP are often the same way. It's impressive that these guys have managed to achieve this effect without drugs, and it reminds me that most soft tissue strikes rely on pain if there is to be an immediate effect.
Mike
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

We feel pain for a reason, so I don't know if I'd be happy taking shots to those places 8O
this is the other side of the coin though isn't it? folks using all that Chimeister stuff and confounding their critics :lol:
Bruise* Lee
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Post by Bruise* Lee »

MikeK wrote:What about the following? I'm not questioning that they do it but I'm dubious about their explanation of how they do it. Bruce could you fill us in?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1416IQdci6w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJqBk8JD4Ho&NR
I am on dial up so I cannot watch it. I am gathering from the comments and the title that its Rod and some Jukoryu people taking punches to the throat and kicks to the ribs etc. I tried to post a lengthy piece on the conditioning board here about it, but you have to be a moderator and I don't have it in me to rewrite it.

A couple of the comments I saw posted at you tube sum it up well. One we are not made of glass. Two, learning to take a punch a bit better is a good idea since you are likely to get hit in a fight. Third, there was a sell out over time of the organization, but keep in mind the original reason Rod developed it - to deal with the fear that occurs in fights and calm oneself regarding the pain.

There was a comment written at YOUTUBE on the lifting of the chin - people wobble, close their eyes etc when they punch - and the reason for lifting the chin is to try and keep your teeth out of the way of the punch - if their punch is off you can lose teeth. I have seen the puncher's wrist watch, etc hit the Combat Ki person in the chin. One of the people commenting says to just tuck your chin and forget learning this stuff - I guess his idea is to protect your throat by taking a punch in the mouth

With the throat strikes - on the most basic level (there are several levels of training to pass through) you kind of do a half valsalvas manuever - forcing air through the half closed epiglottis with high pressure. This keeps the throat inflated with air making it hard to collapse - like a fire hose full of water. Over time you learn to relax more and more and trust : 1) the Ki 2) that you are not made of glass

One time Rod Sacharnoski let one of the Philadelphia Phillies hit him in the throat with a baseball bat as hard as he could. He took 2 strikes on the old Merv Griffin show. The second one hit Rod upside the head and he had some blurred vision for several days.

Many of the Juko Ryu people were really over the top. One guys tied a rope around his neck and then to the bumper of a car and stood backward, letting the car jerk him off his feet and drag him down the road by his neck. He also jumped off the top of a dump truck that was rolling along about 45 mph onto asphalt to test his break falls. Its kind of scarey what a person can endure (and enjoy enduring) if they simply want to.

All of these really over-the-top things were "back in the day". When I was last involved with Juko Kai in 1996, there was nobody really doing too much over the top junk - just the typical strikes to the throat, ribs and groin. I don't know why - too much emphasis on money and being all things to all people, too many attorneys, too many people no longer willing to take a beating for the fun of it,??? I really loved my training with Juko ryu people - very sad to learn of the compromises and pretty much downfall of the group.
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

Sad to hear the group has fallen from favour, I know in my country Juko-ryu was used by some as a profit making scheme.
Where did all this stuff come from?.was it traditional chinese/Okinawan..I did hear that Prof Rod Sacharnoski learned his stuff in Okinawa :? .......I think it would be very useful for some of the Uechi body conditioning nuts to know his ideas and how to take shots :wink:
MikeK
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Post by MikeK »

Thanks for the info Bruce. The guy I train with does much of the same things but without the ki element. While I can see how some of these are done I'm trying to see the "trick" with the groin kick. Not a bad skill to have.
I was dreaming of the past...
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

Where did all this Juko-Ryu stuff start :? .I'm really surprised that folks in Uechi haven't studied it. It would sure make all the body conditioning stuff seem a lot more worthwhile. You have guys here taking shots to soft tissue areas like the throat or the family jewels.makes a lot more sense to me than whacking away at arms and shins which are fairly hard to begin with :D
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