Sanchin

[NEB]

Fujian Baihe San Zhan (Sanchin)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5V7YrJ9lk3U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFEfWhIC7ac

[fivedragons]

Mark, you quoted my post and referred to someone insulting your kids? I honestly don't know how you or anyone else could read my post as attacking anyone at all, let alone being directed at your family???????

If that's what you thought, then you were wrong, and whoever e-mailed you to check out my post was wrong in what they read into it.

The first sentence I wrote had to do with something you wrote to me. And if you notice, there are these little happy laughing round things around it to indicate the frame of mind I was in when I wrote it. Let me explain it to you, so you get it. I wrote the first sentence in a very good natured and self effacing way.

The rest of my post makes no reference either to you, your immediate family, your friends, or whatever else you might think of. And wasn't meant to.

I'm sincerely sorry, if what I wrote caused you to feel like I was attacking you in some way.

I still don't get it, but there's my apology.

[fivedragons]

Now I'd like to explain something to you, Mark, and you can either get mad at me and call me a few more names (assbag, paper tiger) and make patronizing comments (Now now, little dragon) or you can attempt to understand my point of view.

I have been participating in these forums for close to ten years now, and I've got to tell you, I've never seen you make one positive contribution. Not one.

If you take the time to reread this thread, you'll see a bunch of good people taking the time to respond to your questions with openness and honesty. No agenda.

You come here with an agenda, and that is to question and discredit anyone who doesn't have, in your words "ties with Okinawa".

Here's my honest viewpoint, take it or leave it:

I don't choose to belong to any class or school at the moment, for reasons of my own, but let's say I won the lottery tomorrow and could indulge every impulse I might have to learn from anyone.

You remember the list of okinawan masters you posted earlier? I would not be flying to Okinawa to learn from them. I have nothing against them, don't know them, don't care.

I would be visiting George Mattson, Van Canna, Bill Glasheen, Dana Sheetz, Max, Stryke, Mike K, Laird, Rick, Hoshin, Rory, and a huge list of people who either share their knowledge and insight on this website, or don't. But they all live right here in the U.S.

These are the people who matter to me, as people who I would want to learn from, and I have very good reason to feel that way.

Merry Christmas.

[Stryke]

Lets get back on track , weve all had highjacks and train wrecks in the past , Ive run foul of IUKF censors and politics , and theres a lot more beneath the surface , but lets save the thread , some good stuff here .

oh and for the record Mark has always been very helpfull and forthcoming with information with me , and it isnt forgotten , lets get past this .

In other words, this hunched-over or forward shoulder look is usually a sign of improper training. You won't see it in people who know what they are doing exercise-wise, or people who don't do resistance training at all. I personally think it is a BIG mistake not training the back more in Uechi. We do have open hands... We do like to grab... And I've never seen a Uechika who didn't absolutely love jujitsu when they got the training.

Ive found many folks roll there shoulders forward when trying to pull them down , especially when they try to get the elbows in , it is just poor posture , I agree with Bill on the physical structure aspect , especially with the bench press obssesed crowd ( I prefer the old strongman paradigm of overhead pressing and balanced with rows/pullups) , but I do think poor posture can be unlearnt technically at an early stage .

any over specialisation requires compensation , and Uechi posture has its own tendancys , I personally think a good way to compensate indirectly is to encourage a large exspansion of the chest on the Sanchin draw , also the double thrust on the Waukes etc , allowing the upper body to be breathed . I also think the shoulders should be packed down on striking but do have the freedom to move in other sequences .

we must consider breathing , movement and structure at every stage , and to me that truly is a big part of Sanchin .

[fivedragons]

deleted.

[maxwell ainley]

I don't think for one min this threads about the use of hips etc, its another issue . The real issue is; a old style of performance that some practice,and major doubts to its reality .
I will get to the point Toyama sensei spent 8 to ten years with Kanbun was there all day long etc, the only other person maybe is Tomoyose sensei who also as a direct opinion time spent with Kanbun ,all the other sensei on okinawa may not know anthing direct ,quite simply they were too young or were not in Japan in Kanbuns day .

Can you elaborate a little on that? Are there any examples of "old-style" Sanchin we can see on YT? The only video I've seen of Toyama is him doing Sanseiru. Now Toyama's Sanseiru is a little different, at least in a couple angles, etc. How about Tomoyose? He doesn't seem that different from what we normally see, or am I wrong?

Would love to actually SEE what this is all about.

NEB,

Old style of performance .

A style of performance of Kanbun Sensei .
"
Kanbun taught very slowly and very accurate" ponder this a while ,at this point on the above quote we can't escape the fact that Kanbun was communicating a certain performance style .
"
The students had to follow Kanbun's motion's in absolute silence " A first stage in creating accuracy of transmission ,its during this stage and onwards we tend to go our different ways and looks on uechi, bigger ,smaller wa uke ,non combative wa uke ,etc .

"Kanbun taught accuracy"

[maxwell ainley]

Okay but why does everyone look different in performance.
This is really the counter school of thought .

And one that we can't deny on the face of it .

A counter claim to this is Kanbun had additional methodology to stop the effects of stage one going of the accuracy track .

[maxwell ainley]

Remember Kanbuns teaching style is a major component in any sort of accuracy of transmission ,and the students abilty to mirror first of all simple motions ,which in question would be Sanchin and nothing but Sanchin ,there was no hopping from this move to that move ,well not yet anyway ,what we are talking is a transmission of movement ,lets forget a moment about things like I would not like to do uechi like this or undertake a lengthy Sanchin .
Kanbuns accuracy starts here ,my own study indicates that kanbun would have had a firm grip upon accuracy of transmission right from day one ,but only if the student turned up on a daily basis .

[maxwell ainley]

Its concentrated work ,yet there's ample time to get the layers of movement growth internalised .

Somehow a focus to Sanchin is a reality now ,accuracy lives and grows at this point ,or the plot is lost and something else is needed to retain focus .
Lose the focus lose the accuracy .

[Bill Glasheen]

any over specialisation requires compensation , and Uechi posture has its own tendancys , I personally think a good way to compensate indirectly is to encourage a large exspansion of the chest on the Sanchin draw , also the double thrust on the Waukes etc , allowing the upper body to be breathed . I also think the shoulders should be packed down on striking but do have the freedom to move in other sequences .

we must consider breathing , movement and structure at every stage , and to me that truly is a big part of Sanchin .

This is exactly what I was talking about above. Marcus and I have never met each other, and I have never discussed this with him. And yet we're both doing the same thing because we're being driven by some of the same operating principles.

Really nice post, Marcus. You have validated some things I've been experimenting with lately. Ask Vicki. And nobody (in Uechi Ryu*) told me to do this. At some point, it just became obvious. Go figure...

- Bill

* I admit influence from a number of sources. These would include

• my academic training in biomedical engineering,
• my time under strength coach John Gamble,
• my time with Goju/aikido/judo teacher and special forces instructor Dr. King (also a professional chiropractor),
• and some application of Scott Sonnon training principles.

As I've often said, there are very few "new" ideas out there. It's just that some are better at organizing, synthesizing, and executing than others.

[NEB]

Accuracy of transmission I would take to mean teaching something exactly the same, withholding nothing (at the appropriate time) to each eager student. Is this what you mean?

But, when I watch videos of Kanei (who claimed he taught things just as Kanbun did), his performance is a different than just about anyone else's. He's clearly softer, and seems to flow along a bit more. I wonder if he did the katas that way when he was younger. I could see a performance more like Senaga when we are younger, moving to something like Kanei's when we get older.

But this is thype of clarification I'm looking for. Examples that I can see.

Thanks

nb

[maxwell ainley]

Accuracy of transmission I would take to mean teaching something exactly the same, withholding nothing (at the appropriate time) to each eager student. Is this what you mean?

But, when I watch videos of Kanei (who claimed he taught things just as Kanbun did), his performance is a different than just about anyone else's. He's clearly softer, and seems to flow along a bit more. I wonder if he did the katas that way when he was younger. I could see a performance more like Senaga when we are younger, moving to something like Kanei's when we get older.

But this is thype of clarification I'm looking for. Examples that I can see. NEB very short for time ,but here goe's Kanei sensei's teaching style was different to Kanbun's ,thats why I am explaining Kanbuns teaching style back later

Thanks

nb

[Glenn]

Nice Bill, I wasn’t going to post again, but I got an e-mail to check this out.

Glad you and your IUKF web folks allow some assbag to insult my kids.
It OK to talk ##### to me but kinda low to insult ones family. This is why folks with any knowledge don’t do anything here.

Folks are brave here, but never in person. But, again it always been that way here on GEM’s web. 99.9% Paper tigers.

Bill, thanks for having my back. I have always seen little if any tolerance for any person that does not tote the IUKF line, and it just continues. I guess that is why many of you are viewed the way they are on Okinawa. No wonder the IUKF has no Okinawan connections. Don't rock the boat or else, nice. Yet another reason why you only get the same old posters here. Another class act.

Way to go bill…

Mark

I think it interesting that Americans (and others around the world) not maintaining close ties directly with Okinawa for the rest of their life is seen as diminishing the karate they do, and yet Kanbun severing all ties with his teacher and China after only around 10 years is not seen as diminishing what he did in any way. Kanbun wasn't regularly checking back with Shushiwa to make sure he was doing it correctly, or bringing Shushiwa to Japan to hold seminars for his students. He taught for over 20 years with no direct reference back to the source of his art, and we do not question that at all. How different is it for Kanbun to learn what he could and take it back to Japan to teach and interact with other martial artists, and people like George doing the same here?

Personally, among the more valuable lessons I have learned from the martial arts is not how much hip to use in Sanchin or how a particular group does the art, but rather quality traits like patience, understanding, open-mindedness, respect, exploration of new ideas, cooperation as everyone helps each other to learn, and not flying off the handle or being insulting particularly over something that might be my misperception of the intent of the other person. Maybe these are collectively one benefit of learning in American dojo, although I would like to think that Okinawan dojo are no different in these respects. Paper tigers take many forms, and the behavior of one is not necessary reflective of the behavior of those he seeks to represent.

There are so many martial arts all over the world, each with its particular technical ways as well as quirkiness. All are cultural constructs with their own history, traditions, and rules, and all have both the benefits and baggage that comes from this. It simply doesn't make sense to me to get worked up over the differences. Discuss and analyze the differences, but don't get bent out of shape over them.

[Bill Glasheen]

when I watch videos of Kanei (who claimed he taught things just as Kanbun did), his performance is a different than just about anyone else's. He's clearly softer, and seems to flow along a bit more. I wonder if he did the katas that way when he was younger. I could see a performance more like Senaga when we are younger, moving to something like Kanei's when we get older.

This is a great observation.

My direct contact with Uechi Kanei was limited. By the time I got to work with him, the ravages of atherosclerosis had taken its toll. He wasn't the same man, and I knew it. I was happy to have met him, and to have the opportunity for my students to love him and make him feel loved.

My best window on Kanei is Jim Thompson. He studied for a decade in Futenma when Kanei was in his practicing and teaching prime. He was there when many present day Okinawa masters were coming in and out of Kanei's dojo as juniors. And I know he made a name for himself amongst them all, but Jim wouldn't be the kind to brag about it.

I've had many classes with Jim. He is "the perfect traditional martial artist" in so many ways. He's precise, he's powerful, he's emotionally intelligent, he's a fantastic teacher, he's smooth as silk in his execution, and he is a wonderful human being who never speaks disparagingly of others. Ever.

Jim has plenty of power. But his practice is nuanced in so many different ways. Jim teaches to his audience, and answers questions exactly as they are asked. And I mean EXACTLY. If you ask him a yes-or-no question, he'll give you a yes-or-no answer without qualification if at all possible. That is good and bad at the same time. When working with Jim you find that he has this charming/annoying tendency to tell you the truth but not the whole truth. Then when the class is going through the motions, he'll embellish a move like you've never seen anyone do it. If you ask him to repeat what he did, he will show you "vanilla." When I smile and say "That isn't what you just did...", he'll smile back as if congratulating you for paying attention. And then you get some really good stuff.

I found that the best way to query Jim about aspects of the art is not to have preconceived notions in your questions, and leave the question as open-ended as possible. Jim will catch on that you want him to tell "the whole truth" and that you've come with an empty cup. Then you'll get a most wonderful lesson.

I can't help but think that this is what you capture on film with Kanei Uechi. You are getting a stripped-down, lowest common denominator, simplistic, uncontroversial Uechi Ryu. Flow is kept to a minimum so you can see the individual pieces and parts. Nuances are removed. Intra-body timing within and in-between moves is standardized. But the essence isn't the reference book material. The essence of the art is the myriad ways you can pull stuff apart, change the timing, reconstruct the pieces, etc.

It is my understanding from reports coming via myriad paths to Okinawa teachers that Kanei spent much of his time teaching "vanilla" to keep things together. After workouts, many would go off to party or socialize. A few (such as Arakaki) might stick around and dig deeper. It is in these one-on-one sessions that you got a lot of wonderful material that few students bothered to make the effort to get.

Uechi Kanei wasn't the bada$$ that his father was, kicking booty in rural, "Wild West" Fujian province as an outsider. He wasn't young Seiyu Shinjo who just might drop someone for insulting his style. Kanei was the consummate leader and the perfect teacher. He was that special glue that binds many together like nobody else can. And in my opinion, all the many people whom he managed to keep together while still alive are just as much "Uechi Ryu" as Kanei himself was.

My opinion... (Danger!! )

- Bill

[f.Channell]

I believe there's some old posts from years ago where Toyama Sensei spoke through his student on Oki of Kanbun having contact or communication with Shushiwa. That was years ago though so don't quote me. A search of old threads may uncover it though. Clearly whatever happened in China with the loss of a life made it difficult for Kanbun to continue his training with his sensei.

As far as the list Mark had up I think I counted 11 of those Okinawans and Americans I've trained with, I'd say no two do Sanchin exactly the same. Two of the Americans I've trained with, themselves or their direct students, train hip movement in Kata. Takara Sensei did not tell me to not use my hip to empower the strike in August of 2004. Neither did Shinjo Sensei in 2003. Of course I can do Sanchin without the hip movement, depends on the goal of what I'm trying to do with the kata.

Unfortunately with the language barrier, it is only in rare cases that I really learned anything from the Okinawans. More the fault of those putting on the seminar and their lack of translaters. In a seminar in Iaido I went to in May there were 3 Japanese masters and three translaters following them around so a lot of info passes over.

F.