Sanchin

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maxwell ainley
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Re: YES

Post by maxwell ainley »

M J Brelsford wrote:Glenn,

I could not agree with you more.

It is indeed a joy to look at the past and learn from it!

I have spoken in depth with many on Oki about this. The answer is always pretty much the same, “we do it the way Kanbun taught Kanei”. If there is a different way, I have yet to see.

Go figure…

Mark
We arn't getting anywere ,unless the surviving Kanbun students present their views of what they experienced with Kanbun ,which will vary anyway .

I suppose all Kanei students will have a different perspective of how they were taught at the various stages of his teachings,this is natural .
Its been documented that Kanbuns training in china was severe by modern standards [his stories plus is son's ,its quite obvious he did not train in the modern manner ,and eventually when he presented his syllabus, it was presented in a totally different formula [the material ] than is in modern times .

Kanei.
After about three years " my father would have us
sparring " and we have a good idea what Kanbuns students were doing [Sanchin ] and they did not even have a kick to help out matters ,theres a massive differance in methods between what Kanbun was doing and current methods . and I am only pointing to the tip of a iceberg .
max ainley
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Dana Sheets
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Post by Dana Sheets »

What are you looking for Mark?

In my experience you can't "see" good sanchin on a video. The only way to know whether or not someone actually has a good connection to the ground is to touch them.

There are people that look like they're about to fall over and when you touch them you realize they're not. There are others that look like a picture-perfect version of a sanchin statue and you can push them over with a finger.

Toyama teaches a slight lean back, Gushi teaches a slight crouch forward, Tomoyose teaches the kata faster, Miyagi teaches the movements explosive but separated by quite a bit of time and slow stepping, Miyagi pushes on every limb after every movment, Takamiyagi pounds on every limb after every movment, Kiyohide shinjo stands less than toe-heel in the length of his stance, Toyama's stance is longer. Gushi teaches his circle block forward, Miyagi teaches it as big circle vertical, small circle forward, Takara teaches both on the same plane.

None of this matters at all in my way of thinking. Whether or not these individuals have a ground connection, can generate explosive power in both seizing and striking, and have a high level of body awareness does.

What are you looking for Mark?
Did you show compassion today?
M J Brelsford
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THAT

Post by M J Brelsford »

Dana

What you just wrote.

Mark
MikeK
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Post by MikeK »

What's the difference from what they did and what Bill is doing? :?
I was dreaming of the past...
maxwell ainley
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Post by maxwell ainley »

Mike K ,
I think Mark is saying no one is doing a hip twist, like in shotokan for a example ,plus as I have pointed out no one on okinawa is training overall the uechi syllabus as did Kanbun and putting the same hrs per day in ,such as seven hrs on a evening for starters ,his training was like a shift down a pit , pick and shovel work .
max ainley
Stryke

Post by Stryke »

I dont see any problem with all sorts of body movement , but the base must be maintained , extreme breaking of the hip isnt necessary and is just another symptom of over exageration of mechanics , you gain one thing , you loose another . But as to history or what is or isnt a Uechi-type performance ......

Max has a point , time In Sanchin must be a factor . maybe not so much the material but how its approached .

I dont know if historical of not , but more flow , less pausing , and less robot ryu is on my to do list , wether historical or not
hoshin
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Post by hoshin »

im with you stryke,
an american uechi senior once made a comment to me as we watched anothers kata..."they always said Kanbuns kata was very fluid and some movments were so fast that people were not sure what he did, so why does everyone look like slow robots!!!every movement borken downand being done by the numbers even by advanced practitioners"

while i can understand Marks interest in the past ( i do to, but i look all the way back to the chinese) everything we do is totaly useless and pointless... unless we understand the WHY we do what we do. Larry Tan said martial arts is a language of movement. if that is true a lot of us are speeking a dead language. every action has to have meaning to the artist preforming. if no meaning was passed on from the previous generation then we need to find one for ourselves or dont waste your time perfecting a dead language.
MikeK
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Post by MikeK »

maxwell ainley wrote:I think Mark is saying no one is doing a hip twist, like in shotokan for a example
Maybe not in the kata, but in application Shinjo would win the Uechi Hula championship. :lol: Take a look, he's all about the hip when actually hitting something, even when he's testing a guy in Sanchin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTKv4GzeI9E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWfXX5aQhjc

So why is hip movement, and big hip movement at that, OK when actually using power, but wrong in Uechi kata? :?
I was dreaming of the past...
M J Brelsford
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not it

Post by M J Brelsford »

Mike,

As I had stated, there is hip movement in Uechi, read my previous postings.

What you posted has nothing what so ever to do with what I am talking about. I am speaking of excessive hip thrusting in sanchin. Uechi does have natural hips movements in the kata, not extreme hip play. Some folks are sadly adapting this new wave sanchin and really have no idea what they are trying to accomplish. Again to each his own but please don’t call it Uechi.

Mike, if you can please PM me and let me know your Uechi background.

To quota a long time friend…

“ Historical and cultural naivety within the tradition of karate has aided in unchallenged myth to evolve into widespread misunderstanding. Nowhere is this misunderstanding more evident than in the West” Patrick McCarthy

.

Mark
MikeK
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Re: not it

Post by MikeK »

M J Brelsford wrote:Mike,

As I had stated, there is hip movement in Uechi, read my previous postings.
I looked, sorry but I didn't see the posts.
M J Brelsford wrote:What you posted has nothing what so ever to do with what I am talking about. I am speaking of excessive hip thrusting in sanchin. Uechi does have natural hips movements in the kata, not extreme hip play. Some folks are sadly adapting this new wave sanchin and really have no idea what they are trying to accomplish. Again to each his own but please don’t call it Uechi.
Maybe, maybe not, I'm not smart enough to know what's Uechi and what's not. Still, why no hips in the kata but plenty of hip during application? :?
M J Brelsford wrote:Mike, if you can please PM me and let me know your Uechi background.
No need for a PM, I did very little Uechi. It was merely the last karate style I looked into before moving onto other things. These days I'm just trying to understand where karate folks are coming from.
I was dreaming of the past...
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Bill Glasheen
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Re: Sanchin

Post by Bill Glasheen »

M J Brelsford wrote:
Question To All,

Lately I have received a few inquiries on sanchin. I am looking for input from anyone in the comparison of what some term “old style” sanchin and “contemporary” sanchin.

I have my own views but would really like to hear, or better yet see a posting of the differences, if any.

Thanks in advance.

Mark
Mark

Have you found what you were looking for?

- Bill
nosib
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Post by nosib »

MARK, Of all the individuals...teachers you listed you have
trained with,who do you feel performs the most "UECHI"
sanchin?
nosib
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Post by nosib »

.........other than Kanei Uechi.
fivedragons
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Post by fivedragons »

That would be Mark, of course.
M J Brelsford
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Going...

Post by M J Brelsford »

Now now, little dragon, play nice….

Sorry, but unlike others I have never claimed I am another Kanei, or that I think like him or anything to that end.

nosib,

As far as a sanchin learning from someone else besides Kanei, I would say Nakahodo sensei, but then I am bias.
However, I have heard it many times said that Takara sensei has the same “flavor” as Kanei. He is cut from the same cloth, so to speak.

Bill,
I guess, to the extent that I gather most of the folks know or wish to post. Got to say thanks to Dana, she was the closest. So Bill, please do not worry, soon I shall go away. But you know Bill its the warm and kindness I feel here that just keeps me coming back.

:wink:

Mark
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