Political correctness can kill

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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

I'm amazed it took me this long to find ANY reference to the Bill Clinton "In Closing" speech. Probably because you can't quite capture how bad it was unless you sit down long enough to read War and Peace.

But the audience reaction to the one comment (in this YouTube video) says it all.

1988 DNC

And arguably it's this debacle of a speech that gave Clinton the attention he needed to rise from obscurity as a hick Arkansas governor to a viable presidential candidate.

The rest is history.
If you believe Bill Clinton was always a great communicator, find the video of his speech to the 1988 Democratic National Convention in Atlanta. He delivered a long, rambling and boring lecture that got the biggest applause when he said “In conclusion.” Many wrote him off as a player in national politics, because he failed to connect with the audience. Clinton learned from this blunder and focused like a laser beam on improving his communication skills. When he thanked his party for his two terms as President during the 2000 Democratic National Convention in Los Angeles, he delivered perhaps the most effective speech in recent political history.
- What Bill Clinton, Ronald Reagan and You Have in Common


- Bill
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

“The simple fact is that in 1964, we, as a nation, repealed one widely-exercised right – the right of private property owners to serve on public accommodations whom they want – and replaced it with another right, that is the right of the entire American public to use public accommodations,” Will said.

“We were correct to do so and in the process, we refuted an old notion: that you cannot – and this may offend some libertarians – the notion was you cannot legislate morality. Yes you can,” Will said. “We did.”
So, Ian. When do you think it is "correct" to legislate morality? And when is it not correct?

- Bill
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Post by IJ »

"I think you and people who share your views are missing the point, Ian. Rather than pay attention to a movement, you'd rather attack and dismiss it as racist."

I think:

1) People who disagree with other people almost definitionally think they are missing the point
2) You've assumed I've written off all of the issues of a movement because I critiqued one dude's stance on one issue, and you assumed wrong
3) You assumed I thought the guy was racist, and you assumed wrong. Then I clearly explained that I DID NOT think he was racist, just that his approach to the problem of racism would allow it to persist and harm much longer than it did. And you STILL think I consider the guy racist.

What was that about missing the point? You can repeat your line "there you go again," again. And again. And again. Feel free. That does not mean that I am turning a "from the heart, honest discussion about libertarian policy" into a pit bull attack. It is my belief, and the belief of most Americans (you would tell yourself to ignore them at your own peril if our positions were reversed) that the 1964 law broke a tradition of institutional racism in the South and vastly improved circumstances for blacks and ALSO whites. If he had his way back then, an innumerable number of private and public wrongs would have transpired that have instead been prevented.

He must face this fact. He can't just claim it's a non-issue. This is not a settled issue just because Paul says he wouldn't overturn the 1964 law. So what? He's have to be a serious, complete wacko to publicly endorse the right to segregate one's business again. Of COURSE he's not for overturning the law. SO WHAT? Meanwhile, the comments reveal important things about his politics and his positions on current and important issues. It's obviously relevant to me, because gay rights are not a settled issue like minority rights, and the more of a role he plays determining our laws, the less likely it is that rights similar to those promoted by the 1964 act will be guaranteed for me. (It may be true that he might also limit government discrimination more than others, and that has to weigh into the equation, but overall, his comments make me more concerned than relieved).

"When do you think it is "correct" to legislate morality? And when is it not correct?"

Um, perhaps you can consider the examples I've already given you as a starting point, and ask a more specific question? Here's an example of when it's not correct, free of charge: it's not correct when politicians who claim to support smaller government and personal and church freedom use their government power to discriminate in favor of heterosexual unions, military recruits, and like minded churches. One thing Paul MIGHT do of use to me is limit the judgmental nature of republican politics, but doing so may actually cost him politically and he may not be able to combat the evangelical/conservative wing of the party. We'll see.
--Ian
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Post by Panther »

IJ wrote:that the 1964 law broke a tradition of institutional racism in the South and vastly improved circumstances for blacks and ALSO whites.
This has been said multiple times in this thread, so I feel the need to make a comment.

When I was a youngster growing up in the South, the school system I attended consisted of:

1) Four different white elementary schools (K-7) located in geographic areas of the region.

2) A white Jr-Sr (8-12) High school.

3) A black school (K-12).

I remember when the following occurred:

1) All formerly white elementary schools became K-6 and blacks went to the closest elementary school to their home OR could petition to go to any of the other elementary schools. (white kids only went to the elementary school closest to their home).

2) ALL children went to 7th grade at the formerly black school.

3) ALL children went to Jr-Sr (8-12) High school at the former white Jr-Sr high school. (A new High School was proposed and built over the next few years and the old high school became the Jr. High School {8-9} while the new high school became the Sr. High School {10-12} for ALL students.)

No Issues... That was the way it was. The same buses were used with different routes and I never witnessed any outrage, anger, or violence when that happened. For the vast majority of kids (a group which I fell into) what it meant was more playmates and friends... Neat-o! (As we said when I was a kid.)

Here is the reason I bring this up. Fast forward to after I graduate high school and decide to go to College/University in Boston rather than other places where I was accepted. I remember watching in horror as people (in the 1970s mind you!) in Boston threw bricks at school buses and started banging on those buses with bats and clubs... while frightened children were riding inside with the sole desire to go to school!!! 8O :evil: We're talking basically a decade after we had been integrated in the school system in the South where I attended.

So... Please... Stop calling it the "institutional racism in the South"... From my experience (and to my surprise) I saw and have seen just as much "institutional racism" in Massachusetts as I ever witnessed in the South. People might not like that, but it's true... At least where I grew up, we didn't have the problems that I saw over a decade later in Boston.

Just a side note... I didn't own a TV when I moved to Boston. I watched all of that unfold on the evening news with my roommate who did own a little B&W TV. Nice guy, great musician, wasn't surprised about it all, had visited my parent's house during break, he thought the people in Boston were way more racist than the ones he'd met in the South, we were different races... we decided that racism is stupid. My children are raised the same way... with friends of all races. To this day, there are people here in Massachusetts (well educated people too) who hear the accent (yep, I still have it... call home often to renew it :wink: ) and make comments about either my supposed "institutional racism" OR in surprise that my children play with children of other races OR in surprise that I have friends/associates who are of other races. I usually brush it off. It seems to bother my friends of various different races more than me because they feel like I've been slighted or put down. I've gotten used to it over the last nearly 40 years living here.
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Panther wrote:
So... Please... Stop calling it the "institutional racism in the South"... From my experience (and to my surprise) I saw and have seen just as much "institutional racism" in Massachusetts as I ever witnessed in the South. People might not like that, but it's true... At least where I grew up, we didn't have the problems that I saw over a decade later in Boston.
That was my experience as well, Panther. And yet that northern elitist attitude continues today.

It isn't just New England. New York city is famous for maintaining its racial divides. It isn't just black vs. white. It's every ethnic group from Armenian to Zulu. They don't call it racism there; it's called maintaining an ethnic identity. Ooohhh... Silly me. :roll:

For practical reasons, my dad chose not to move when our neighborhood quickly turned from all white to all black. He built his 5 bedroom, 3 bath brick home for his 8 kids, and he was going to stay in it. When he retired, he donated it to the black baptist church that was built behind our home. I cherish that time growing up with lower-to-middle class blacks as much as I cherished the time I spent at Exeter with its racial and socioeconomic mix. My neighborood was the birthplace of many famous black athletes including Moses Malone and Alan Iverson. Some of the best pick-up games of basketball on the east coast happened on the playground within 50 feet of my house.

What to they call it when people pre-judge you, Panther? ;)

- Bill
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

IJ wrote:
He must face this fact. He can't just claim it's a non-issue. This is not a settled issue just because Paul says he wouldn't overturn the 1964 law.
There you go again.

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Post by Bill Glasheen »

IJ wrote:
It's obviously relevant to me, because gay rights are not a settled issue like minority rights, and the more of a role he plays determining our laws, the less likely it is that rights similar to those promoted by the 1964 act will be guaranteed for me.
On the contrary, Ian. Keep people like Rand Paul out of the Republican party and you're more likely to have morality legislated AGAINST your wishes. Per YOUR OWN ARGUMENT...
IJ wrote:
One thing Paul MIGHT do of use to me is limit the judgmental nature of republican politics, but doing so may actually cost him politically and he may not be able to combat the evangelical/conservative wing of the party. We'll see.
It took you long enough... ;)
IJ wrote:
Bill Glasheen wrote:
When do you think it is "correct" to legislate morality? And when is it not correct?
Um, perhaps you can consider the examples I've already given you as a starting point, and ask a more specific question? Here's an example of when it's not correct, free of charge: it's not correct when politicians who claim to support smaller government and personal and church freedom use their government power to discriminate in favor of heterosexual unions, military recruits, and like minded churches.
I can see why you keep arguing, Ian. You really haven't a clue what the difference is between a typical conservative vs. a typical libertarian. I've tried to explain this to you and others before. Apparently it's falling on deaf ears.

Please study...

Image

Falling on any point in that two-dimensional spectrum isn't necessarily a matter of being "correct" or "not correct." It's a matter of personal political preference.

You have a selfish wish, Ian, and to some extent your life revolves around it. And that's your prerogative. If your brain was wired differently, you might just as adamently espouse a different view - one contrary to your self interest "as is." After all, you like to see morality legislated. You gave lots of examples. Just think if you were heterosexual and were raised as an othodox Christian, Jew, or Muslim. You'd be your own worst enemy.

IMO your self interest is better served by joining independents (and I) and thinking more like Mr. Jefferson. But that's me... ;)

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Post by IJ »

Panther, Bill is having trouble with broad strokes here so I didn't get into specifics. I heartily agree with you that racism wasn't limited to the South in 1964, nor is it today. Point taken. I don't prejudge anyone on the basis of where they live w.r.t. whether they might be racist (or anything else). But we can't really deny that slavery, then Jim Crow laws, lynchings, and so on, have been overall more of a problem in the South than the North.

Bill would like to repeat "there you go again" a few more times, because that means that Rand Paul is right and the 1964 law went too far or his principles are better or something. For me, it's a slogan, not an argument, and it's meaningless. Moving on. Trying to.

Bill has told me now 100 times I have no idea what liberatarians or conservatives or liberals do or think, and he continues to be wrong. He has now provided a remedial graph on the issue. Super. He does make one half correct half incorrect statement which needs to be addressed:

"On the contrary, Ian. Keep people like Rand Paul out of the Republican party and you're more likely to have morality legislated AGAINST your wishes. Per YOUR OWN ARGUMENT..."

I'm perfectly aware of what my argument is, thank you very much. And YES, if the republican party were deeply infiltrated by Rand Paul think alikes, there would be LESS anti-gay legislation directed at me coming from them. But there are many reasons why this is not the point.

1) I'm not trying to keep Paul "out of the Republican party." I would probably vote to keep him out of office, however--but that depends on his opponent. Point: he may be less of a theat than the other Republicans and more of a threat than a Democrat or independent.

2) With more Rand Pauls in government, there may be fewer directly anti-gay acts promoted, but there will also be fewer attempts to reverse discrimination.

3) Converting the Republican party to a more libertarian one is a swell idea, but not going to happen. Would you like to tell the moral majority / christian coalition / evangelical republican base that they don't get to promote their values politically and they have to leave other people alone? Good luck with that. If you don't play to the most fervent in either party, you don't make it to the big scene, which is by and large why we get more wacko candidates and polarized politics, and fewer centrist and better candidates and compromise.

All this time, Bill, possessed of my excellent verbal aptitude skills and propelled by my Jeffertastic, Jefferogasmic Jeffersonian UVa education, I have been aware of what libertarians are--as you really should be aware. I am well aware that Rand may theoretically support ending antigay policies as a libertarian; it is my right to be wary of anyone who would not stop discrimination as per the 1964 legislation. I'm not saying he's racist (never did! stop misrepresenting! have to assume you're doing it deliberately now!) but that he wouldn't have interfered. America agrees with me (your argument! listen to the people! your argument!) and wants politicians who stop practices this hateful even if it means some government intrusion.

Now, for interest sake, I decide to explore Rand and gay rights a bit. Rand Paul Gay Rights gets me the following on google:

http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2010/05/ra ... _enou.html
Here I learn that Paul supports banning gay marriage! Great, Bill... now here, if I ran with your libertarian assurances, I might have assumed he wouldn't use the government to, ahem, legislate morality, and discriminate against gay Americans. But he would. So... he tolerates the evil of racism, but he can't tolerate two women getting married? Some libertarian.

He also supports a constitutional ban on abortion. Wow. Don't let the states settle it. Don't let a woman decide. Use the greatest legal document in the world to completely ban it. What's next, OCP's because they sometimes prevent implantation? Would that be "legislating morality" on any level? Banning abortion? Hmm?

I looked for confirmation and found that not all "libertarians" are entranced with this guy's pure, noninterventionist politics. The libertarian vice-chairman ought to know:

Koch said Paul's views on a variety of subjects differ from the Libertarian Party, including his promised support for any measures to ban abortion and his opposition to same-sex marriage.

"Trying to impose a national standard for that would throw the whole system out of balance, and that's definitely not Libertarian," Koch said.

Koch also said Paul is out of step with Libertarians in his unwillingness to call for U.S. troops to leave Iraq and Afghanistan.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 02334.html

If Paul were to come out and say that the government ought to get out of marriage entirely, and permit civil unions on a lvel palying field, I'd be delighted; that's my recommendation and has been for a long time. I'll be waiting for that suggestion--and for hell to freeze over since it's going to be a tough sell for Republicans in general. It'll be a long time before Bill stops chastizing me for not embracing all the things Rand will do for my personal freedoms. And a lot longer for any of them to materialize while he's busy opposing gay marriage and amending the Constitution to ban abortion.
--Ian
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Ian

It doesn't surprise me that the Washington Post engages in a misinformation campaign to attack a Republican. They aren't a lot better than the New York Times - or LA Times for that matter. Might as well go back to quoting salon.com.

To wit...
Ian wrote:
Washington Post wrote:
Koch also said Paul is out of step with Libertarians in his unwillingness to call for U.S. troops to leave Iraq and Afghanistan.
Wow... Look far enough, and you'll find someone within a somewhat fuzzy group (there's a spectrum within the spectrum) who doesn't like the bloke next to him. How convenient of The Post to cherry-pick the right guy to impugn Rand's views. I'm shocked! (Not...)

Let me quote a well-respected writer. :P
Bill Glasheen wrote:
George Will wrote:
Democrats and, not amazingly, many commentators say Republicans are the ones with the worries because they are nominating strange and extreme candidates. Their Exhibit A is Rand Paul, winner of Kentucky’s Republican primary for the U.S. Senate.

Well. It may seem strange for a Republican to have opposed, as Paul did, the invasion of Iraq. But in the eighth year of that war, many Kentuckians may think he was strangely prescient. To some it may seem extreme to say, as Paul does, that although the invasion of Afghanistan was proper, our current mission there is “murky.” But many Kentuckians may think this is an extreme understatement.
So... Nice try, Ian, but I don't buy your argument. I trust George Will. And his characterization of Paul per Iraq and Afghanistan is one of a "libertarian-minded" individual (probably more Classical Liberal) who wouldn't do anything rash, stupid, or without careful consideration. Sounds good to me!

Panther, you have met the man. Care to speak to his positions as you understand them?

Better yet, believe what Rand Paul himself says on his own website.

Issues - Rand Paul 2010

The only view I can confirm as being consistent with the one you posted is the one on abortion. But here's the thing, Ian. Libertarian-minded people can be for or against abortion. That's a religious thing after all. The biggest issue isn't allowing it or not for the next person, but rather blocking FEDERAL funding of abortions. Allowing these things to be settled at the state level is all most people who are against a big FEDERAL government ask for.

The marriage one is a red herring, Ian. Marriage is a religious institution, and outside groups have no business telling people of a particular religion what they should and should not believe. Should I refer you to Jefferson's Virginia Statute on Religious Freedom?

There are legal arrangements that can get you everything you want without the need of a Judeochristian institution that's based on dogma that may or may not ascribe to your views.

I think Shakespeare got it right on this one.

What's in a name?
That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet.


Been there, done that on this argument. Enjoy your partner, get your rights, and be done with it already! You have every right to be just as miserable as any average married person in this country! And besides, I'd a lot rather trial attorneys spend less time attacking business and medicine, and more time milking arguing couples of their precious family assets. Think of the increased revenue for them! :P

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Post by IJ »

Bill, your concern with my quoting one of the Libertarian party's own higher ups (regardless of which paper it was featured in), was with regard to the war situation. My interest, however, was primarily his "promised support for any measures to ban abortion and his opposition to same-sex marriage," since these issues are the ones at hand (personal freedoms). You failed to address the abortion issue, and focused on the war issue--what a "red herring."

Writing a constitutional amendment to define any act that interrupts pregnancy from someone who believes "life begins at conception" (Dr. Rand Paul, official website, today), is hardly limited government and personal freedom. Most Americans, including most Catholics even, believe in the use of birth control, which does prevent implantation of fertilized eggs on occasion. His own statements indicate he might not only ban abortion (hello, back alley abortion fiascoes; hello, federal intrusion on state's rights (at least as defined by liberals like Antonin Scalia)) but actually ban birth control.

And you omit this because it doesn't support, er, refutes, your hypothesis. Interesting.

And the gay marriage issue is NOT a red herring, Bill. It is clearly an issue of national importance. It is irrelevant only to you, because it makes your argument shakier. I could find nothing on gay marriage on Paul's site, including under his privacy and liberty section. Based on reports, he is opposed to gay marriage, but until I hear that is because he opposes straight marriage AND gay marriage recognized by government, he appears to be promoting discrimination. Against me. You were just soothing Panther about his experience with prejudice from northern elites; a few hours later, the actual legally enshrined discrimination kind of prejudice is just a "red herring." Whatever.

"Marriage is a religious institution, and outside groups have no business telling people of a particular religion what they should and should not believe. Should I refer you to Jefferson's Statute on Religious Freedom?"

"There you go again." Interestingly, this time, it's just hypocrisy. You don't think outside groups should tell churches whom they can marry? Then F#@k off, and let equality minded churches marry same sex couples, instead of telling all Jewish, Christian, and other gay and lesbian couples they can't use your magic word because you feel you can tell them their branch of religion is less worthy.

No one has to be forced to marry gay people. Priests could still refuse if there were marriage equality in the USA, contrary to your suggestion that gay marriage equality would be "telling people of a particular religion what they should and should not believe." I don't want to be married at all, for the reason you give: it's a religious institution (to me; not to all). But for you to tell me I need to re-read Jefferson's Statue on Religious Freedom, and then to propose that churches and temples (who knows, maybe mosques) shouldn't be permitted to marry same sex couples because you own the institution? And you've never suggested you would de-governmentize straight marriage--it's ok for you to have a government sanctioned straight marriage, but you'll tell same sex couples legal recognition isn't part of the equation when they're concerned. I'd be laughing if I weren't insulted and astounded.

Once again: an occasionally wise, occasionally misguided person once said,

"Marriage is a religious institution, and outside groups have no business telling people of a particular religion what they should and should not believe."

That happens when YOU or the GOVERNMENT tells a religion they CAN'T marry same sex couples.

It doesn't happen when I or MASSACHUSETTS or SPAIN etc tells a religion they may marry or not marry whom they please.

Get it?! You have the principle spot on and the application bass ackwards.
--Ian
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Post by Panther »

IJ wrote:But we can't really deny that slavery, then Jim Crow laws, lynchings, and so on, have been overall more of a problem in the South than the North.
History is history, but be careful where you get your history because the books are written by the winners. :wink:

The truth is sometimes far different than the propaganda/history written by the victors. I don't feel it worthwhile to get into the ins and outs of that history, especially not here. But I will say that your position is typical of someone who believes the commonly taught propaganda/history of the time... which basically lays all blame on the evil white slave-holders in the South (a very, very small fraction of the population BTW) and basically completely absolves anyone to the North of the Potomac of wrong. Neither is correct.

EG: I once had a well-educated person in Massachusetts tell me how it was "historical fact and common knowledge" that the white children in the antebellum South were raised and taught to read & write by the "black mammys" (his term not mine). I asked where he got his information and he said it was fact and was taught in the schools in Massachusetts when he was growing up including to his children (who confirmed the belief/lesson). I was very nearly shouted out of the room as being a "revisionist" when I pointed out that they were wrong. My proof was/is simple. It was illegal for any slave in the antebellum South to read or write! (On a side-note and as an FYI/"fun-fact", there were Free Blacks in the South who were slave-owners.)
Now, for interest sake, I decide to explore Rand and gay rights a bit. Rand Paul Gay Rights gets me the following on google:

http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2010/05/ra ... _enou.html
Here I learn that Paul supports banning gay marriage! Great, Bill... now here, if I ran with your libertarian assurances, I might have assumed he wouldn't use the government to, ahem, legislate morality, and discriminate against gay Americans. But he would. So... he tolerates the evil of racism, but he can't tolerate two women getting married? Some libertarian.
Actually Ian... I don't support "legalizing" gay marriage either. But wait before you angrily hit the reply switch. First "marriage" is a term that is filled with religious history. It is between partners and their God. If your church/mosque/synagogue/temple/religion/beliefs say that marriage is between two people who care for each other period, then that's fine by me. BUT (forgetting how things technically are now, which I don't agree with), that is none of the State's business. IMNSHO, it is none of the State's business regardless of who the parties are. I don't believe the State should be in the business of issuing marriage licenses/permits/certificates/what-have-you at all. For purely legal reasons, I think that any two people, anywhere should be able to enter into a legal partnership which "grants" the privileges which are currently conferred legally by the State's version of "matrimony"... but that is separate from what you and your partner do from a "religious" standpoint. You can call it "civil union" or whatever, but it should be considered a legal partnership only. In truth, I don't think the State should have any business in it all, but only take this position because of the current place we are regarding Government control over us. (The whole government "marriage license" scheme is for revenue & control... two things I'd like to reduce from government as far as possible.)
I looked for confirmation and found that not all "libertarians" are entranced with this guy's pure, noninterventionist politics. The libertarian vice-chairman ought to know:

Koch said Paul's views on a variety of subjects differ from the Libertarian Party, including his promised support for any measures to ban abortion and his opposition to same-sex marriage.

"Trying to impose a national standard for that would throw the whole system out of balance, and that's definitely not Libertarian," Koch said.

Koch also said Paul is out of step with Libertarians in his unwillingness to call for U.S. troops to leave Iraq and Afghanistan.
I don't know about Rand, but his Dad, Ron, has called for U.S. troops to come home... period! Also, Ron has been very specific that his personal beliefs are that life starts at conception, but he leaves others to their beliefs (as a good libertarian would). Ron has said that he does not believe in same-sex marriage for the same reasons I just stated (except he's a stronger proponent of "limited" government, whereas I used to be a "minarchist" until I ran out of excuses...) As for Rand vs. Ron, I honestly didn't get into this with Rand. We spent lots of time talking with Rand's sister (plenty of which surrounded her & my wife comparing pregnancy notes... it's a "woman-thing" which I wasn't really allowed to be more than a passing witness to) and some time talking with Ron. I guess I'm guilty of "innocent by association" on this, since there isn't anything from my experience directly to tell me that Rand follows his Dad's or Sister's beliefs. We all know that offspring or siblings can and do hold wildly disparate beliefs sometimes. I will just leave it that I am far closer to Ron Paul than any other politician I've ever met.

On the "diamond" graph of political views which Bill posted, I have taken the test(s) to place myself on that graph many times and almost always end up right at the top point... although I've been directly down by one spot once when I wasn't thinking clearly. :lol:
If Paul were to come out and say that the government ought to get out of marriage entirely, and permit civil unions on a level playing field, I'd be delighted; that's my recommendation and has been for a long time.
See... we agree completely. :wink:
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Oh al-right...

More fun with my friend Ian. 8)
IJ wrote:
Bill, your concern with my quoting one of the Libertarian party's own higher ups (regardless of which paper it was featured in), was with regard to the war situation. My interest, however, was primarily his "promised support for any measures to ban abortion and his opposition to same-sex marriage," since these issues are the ones at hand (personal freedoms). You failed to address the abortion issue, and focused on the war issue--what a "red herring."
Nice try, but... Wrong.

Save the herring for the sushi bar; I addressed the abortion issue.

You know what you're suffering from here? You're too much like Rand Paul was with the whole civil rights thing. You're thinking your personal political principles, and not thinking like a politician.

You and I both agree that abortion is something to be avoided if at all possible. It's a terrible thing, and never to be taken lightly. We both have a love of life and of nature. So we're good there.

Rand Paul says he believes life begins at conception. Maybe he does, and maybe he doesn't. Gamete turns to zygote. Cool. It's just as arbitrary as a fully formed baby being on one side vs. the other side of a vaginal opening. So let's just put that whole argument aside. I think we can agree on that. There are so many other more fun things to torture each other about. ;)

Mostly he says things like this to address bible belt constituents. You don't live there; he does. You're not a practicing, bible reading Christian; maybe he is. In any case, he plays to the evangelicals the way you play to hispanics with illegals living in their homes, or to your gay friends. Score some points with your voters, and move on. Say something different to a different crowd, and move on.

AS LONG AS YOUR CORE PRINCIPLES REMAIN THE SAME.... you as a politician have a right to empathize with the crowd you're speaking to. That's just good emotional intelligence, and being a good politician.

I would never make a good politician because my Irish scientist mouth likes to tell people what I REEEAAALLLY think. I suspect you can relate - which is why we like to argue so much. You're not a lot different than my best friend I grew up with - who by the way is also an MD. Only he went from Vietnam war protestor to anti-terrorist Jewish conservative with a son in the Naval Academy. Different paths; different outcomes.

Anyhoo...

You can remain a good politician and a principled one at that by bringing all your voter constituents together using some simple core principles.

Rand Paul does this by suggesting he'll get the federal government out of the abortion equation. If you didn't notice... This tactic was used to get Obama, Pelosi, and Reid not to pay for abortions with federal money or insurance mandates. For whatever reason... We can agree to disagree. We say keep the federal government out of it, and let the states settle it amongst themselves. Then states can vary in how they interpret the law.

Roe vs. Wade is what it is. It really was an overreach of the federal government. But for now it is the law of the land. How individual states interpret that ruling can vary.

Ian... I PERSONALLY support a woman's right to choose. However I also think we should avoid legislating morality on the federal level - whenever possible. If I went around wanting all my friends to be just like me, well then you wouldn't be my friend. And I wouldn't have a couple of lesbians who are dear friends and personal confidantes. I VALUE the diversity amongst my friends. I don't want to change you, Ian.

But I don't like it when you tell my Christian friends how they should live or what they should believe. Same with my Muslim friends for that matter. Then I can't get all my friends to get along.

So...

We find ways to agree to disagree. Then we get to be a nation that's strong not by its homogeneity, but rather by its heterogeneity.

So...

I hope I've put the pin in your big balloon argument about limited government. You've got it backwards, Ian. It isn't the business of the federal government to legislate how we should live. THAT is limited federal government.

Less is more.

And just so I won't disappoint you... ;)
Jefferson points out that good government is limited government and that limited government encourages our civic happiness. He favored a constitutional government of enumerated powers, one that would restrain men from harming one another but would otherwise leave them to their own pursuits--not taking "from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circle of our felicities."
- The Heritage Foundation

How things work out on the gay rights front is something I can't fathom. But I have faith we'll all figure it out. And the fewer the rule it takes to do so, Ian, the happier I'll be. The less we all have to change to live happily by the next person, the happier I'll be.

If you were in my foxhole, I'd get your back. And I'll sleep with you there any day. Nuff said.

- Bill
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Panther
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Post by Panther »

I guess I should have read farther before replying.

Here it is in a nut-shell...

I don't like force or coercion being used on anyone. No one has the right to harm anyone else, everyone has the right to defend themselves and live at peace. (basically the old adage of "your right to throw a punch ends at my nose.")

A starting point is to only keep "mala in se" laws and abolish all "mala prohibitum" laws.

If you believe that people need someone else to govern them, then you believe that people cannot govern themselves. If you believe that others cannot govern themselves, then you must concede that you cannot govern yourself. If you cannot govern yourself, then you cannot govern others and if you are not competent to govern yourself, then you are likewise incompetent to choose your own rulers and are especially unsuited to chose someone to rule over others. In that case, you are not qualified to vote. So don't vote, you're not qualified!

Perhaps that circular logic doesn't work for you, then think of this... There are three possibilities:

1) Everyone is good therefore no one needs anyone else to be in power to tell them what the "right" thing is to do. OK, so we can all agree that's not the case.

2) Everyone is bad therefore putting anyone into power is only electing bad people to control other bad people and what use is that. You can argue "degrees" of bad, but that's basically every election cycle I've ever witnessed. OK, so we can all agree that's not the case either.

2) Some people are good, some people are bad. Now we have a realistic assessment... The "good" people, by definition, will "do the right thing" and they don't need anyone to control them. The bad people want power and control over others, by definition, and (being bad) will use every means available to get that power and control. Therefore the system of putting anyone into power in such a scenario is inherently rigged so that mainly (if not exclusively) bad people will gain the power & control. Again, you can argue "degrees" of bad, but as I wrote, that's basically every election cycle I've ever witnessed. So is it really reasonable to have a system that is inherently setup so that bad people will gain control over good people? I don't think so. Regardless of where your political leanings are, remember that it matters not which foot, left or right, the jackboot of control is on. You are still the servant/slave and the person with the jackboot is still the master. You may argue that legislating morality or "good" is acceptable to you. Then consider this:

What people fail to think about when "electing" ideologues from either side is...

Put together your most desired, most ideal law that will be vigorously enforced by government, then imagine that the person who will enforce that law is your very worst enemy.

Still think it's a "good" idea? (Having an attorney step-daughter & paralegal wife, I've learned to be cognizant that "the devil is in the details" and anything can be twisted/interpreted to be different if those in power want it to be interpreted differently! 8O )

In the Lord of the Rings trilogy the "One Ring" controls all of the other "Rings of Power". The Dark Lord Sauron needs to get the Ring in order to be all powerful. The wizard Gandalf wants the Ring to use it for good, but he realizes that the power of the Ring corrupts and no matter how powerful a wizard he is or how good he is, the Ring will corrupt him. So it is decided that the Ring must be destroyed and in order to do that Frodo, a truly good and innocent being, is given the task because he is the only one they can trust not to be corrupted by the Ring's power while completing the task of destroying the One Ring.

(Yeah, you're wondering where I'm going with this... )

The One Ring is government. It is all-powerful over people and will always corrupt them. The debate is ageless and timeless... We must elect someone who will use "government" power for "good" and people fall for that ploy time and time again, never realizing that no one can control the Ring's power for good without being corrupted. The only answer was to unmake the One Ring using the fire from Mount Doom. The only solution is to destroy the power so that it can not be wielded. Unfortunately, we have no Frodo and most people still believe the lie that the power "just needs to be harnessed for good"... which is an impossibility. Most people are brainwashed into believing that all of that power is 'necessary"! Most people can not even fathom looking into the fire of Mount Doom... into the "abyss" where all that power is destroyed. They've been brainwashed that the destruction of all that power will result in something worse... something unthinkable... something unspeakable...
Which, in reality, is called Freedom
==================================
My God-given Rights are NOT "void where prohibited by law!"
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question.
- Jefferson's First Inaugural, March 4, 1801
Valkenar
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Post by Valkenar »

Panther wrote:
The bad people want power and control over others, by definition, and (being bad) will use every means available to get that power and control.
Except you didn't define "bad people" so there's no "by definition" that applies here.

I think this argument also glosses over an awful lot of human nature. People aren't just bad or good. They're also ignorant or knowledgeable, smart or stupid, etc. Even the "bad" and "good" isn't neatly categorizable. A person can be kind on a personal level and cruel on a group level, or the opposite. Someone might enjoys watching others suffer (making them a "bad" person, right?) but maybe they just hate other people in general and don't want to rule over them either.

Furthermore, taken to its logical extreme there can be no government at all. Not even police and regular laws, because hey, the police obviously are going to be "bad" people because they get law enforcement powers, which causes the system to be rigged. Now maybe you actually want no government at all, but that would be a very extreme anarchist position. If that's something you want to see happen, then the conversation can end there.

However, if you take a step back and decide that maybe having some government at all is not just a mechanism for sadists to control hapless innocents, then there's a decision to be made about what "minimal" government means. The fact is that minimal is a word a lot of people use, but doesn't mean the same thing to everybody.
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