Sanchin

[Victor Smith]

If I am I'd like to share some of the information I recall in my studies about what became Goju Sanchin.

Hiagonna Kanryo reportedly returned from China with Sanchin. The kata wasn't as much a fixed form but a set of training. The practice seemed to move forward as much space allowed, then turned to the rear and moved forward till it was necessary to turn to the front again. [Note I know Uechin Sanchin is practiced in free form format too.]

Hiagonna Kanryo taught Sanchin both empty hand and closed hand and showed no preference to either version.

Two of his students retained his studies as their own practice progressed. Kyoda Juhatsu developed Tou'on Ryu. Miyagi Chojun developed Goju.

Note: for solid information on Tou'on Ryu check out Meibukan Magazine No 5 with several articles by Mario McKenna (Vancouver BC Canada) the only Tou'on Ryu instructor outside of Japan. I once had the privilege of a visit from him and was able to observe his Sanchin first hand.

Miyagi apparently really focused on very hard closed fist Sanchin. Kyoda Juhatsu's Sanchin was closed fist, but with a lot free'r movement in practice.

Miyagi developed a version of Sanchin shorter than Hiagonna's version, no turns and included backward movement. Reportedly it was because Miyagi felt Goju needed retreating movement in their practice and the other kata didn't efficiently use backward movement. He taught both versions and today some goju programs continue teaching the Hiagonna and Miyagi Sanchin.

Note: Isshinryu Sanchin is a variation of the Miyagi Sanchin - apparently what Shimabuku Studied from Miyagi in his time.

Tensho was developed as a variation of Sanchin for open hand technique (reportedly from concepts in the Bubishi). There are Okinawan Goju schools which do Sanchin-Tensho, incorporating both styles of movement.

Note: There are many Goju school variations on the Goju theme, there are not all moving lockstep.
Note2: Miyagi Chojun awarded no one dan rank, he didn't believe in it. He did obtain advanced teaching credentials from the Japanese martial establishment but did't use that to offer the same in Goju-ryu. His students on his death, in the mid 1950's all adopted dan ranking - contrary to his wishes, similar to how on Funakoshi Ginchin's death his JKA moved past 5 dans ranks to today's 10 ranks. hmmm.

Suprisingly there is not a great deal of Sanchin Video from sources we'd really like to see.


Miyagi Chojun Goju Ryu
Sakiyama Sogeh Roshi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNpuaWP88HI

Miyagi Sanchin – Hiagonna Morio
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG0369WGcPs

AN ICHI MIYAGI & TERAGUCHI SENSEI SANCHIN SHIME
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjjzbVLdY1o

Isshinryu Sanchin Kata – Shimabuku Tatsuo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFeWJRRm4Qk

Motobu-ryu version orf Sanchin. On the tape it's called Moto-te Ichi.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fhk8GaAGnI
actually two different versions are being shown, open hand and closed fist. It might appear they were trying to follow the original Hiagonna Kanryo approach. I do not know the link to Goju.

Goju-kai Sanchin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpEVNUIkVx8
lineage - Miyagi Chojun – Yamaguchi Gogen

Meibukan – Sanchin-Tensho Kata
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHeRn4xaQvU

[Bill Glasheen]

Tensho was developed as a variation of Sanchin for open hand technique (reportedly from concepts in the Bubishi). There are Okinawan Goju schools which do Sanchin-Tensho, incorporating both styles of movement.

People are all over the map on this.

I personally have a hard time getting my brain around tensho being anything but a separate kata the way Uechi Seisan is separate from Uechi Sanchin. It certainly was treated that way in Shorei Kai Goju - the lineage from Seikichi Toguchi.

Perhaps this is all semantics.

Speaking of which... Here is the form by my teacher a few generations up.

Seikichi Toguchi - Kata Tensho

Maybe I'm biased, but... I'm glad I started with Shorei Kai Goju. Then again... My teacher first started learning from Yamaguchi Gosei, and then Kimo Wall before finally working with Scott Lindsay and the Shorei Kai branch. Why all the jumping around? Silly-assed politics. (Don't ask...)

- Bill

[Dana Sheets]

Tensho was developed as a variation of Sanchin for open hand technique (reportedly from concepts in the Bubishi).

That makes a lot of sense to me. Both forms are training the power development for fundamental movements. There's really only 2-3 techniques in tensho that aren't in Uechi sanchin and those got pulled into Uechi hojo-undo. So it is easy to see how they're related.

[Bill Glasheen]

Earlier I had intended to embellish Panther's descriptions of the differences in turning between Uechi Sanchin and Goju Sanchin (Sanchin dai ni for those who prefer...).

• In Uechi Sanchin...
  • Pivot on back foot while turning body 90 degrees. Then plant the back foot. Old back foot will soon become new front foot.
  • Slide front foot across while completing the turn (90 more degrees) and shifting the center of gravity. Old front foot becomes new back foot.
• In Goju Sanchin...
  • Slide front foot across so that ball of foot is placed where it will end up after turn. Do this while shifting center of gravity from in-between the old feet positions to over top of the remaining planted foot.
  • Pivot 180 degrees on balls of both feet while shifting the body's center of gravity more in the same direction until it is in-between the two new foot positions.

So the differences in the turn are:

• Rotate all at once (Goju) or two times 90 degrees (Uechi).
• Shift center of gravity all at once (Uechi), or in two half-shifts (Goju).
• Pivot feet all at once (Goju) or one foot at a time (Uechi).

Essentially the same elements are mixed differently.

Why would one do this cross-over step? Well...

Check out the classical form Sepai. I like this guy's form. He reminds me of my own teacher, back when I was learning from him in the 1980s.

Kata Sepai by Abe Ryuki

In particular, look at the footwork from 1:38 to 1:40. There you step into the cross-step and turn 270 degrees counterclockwise to a new Sanchin.

Also check out the 225-degree turn from 1:18 to 1:20. You can't do that turn using standard Uechi mechanics. (Uechi Sanseiryu also has a 225-degree turn, but done with traditional Uechi Sanchin mechanics.) And note the Uechi-like "groin strike" at the end.

These turns don't make sense to strikers. But if you view Naha styles as a bridge between striking and grappling, then you'll get it. The 225-degree turns in particular are puzzling until someone shows you an application. Then it becomes a forehead slapper.

SIDE NOTE:

I don't like the way this guy does the last move in Sepai. It's all wrong. If you want to know what that move is supposed to do, check out the fight sequence in The Matrix. In particular, look at 1:09 to 1:10.

Matrix - Neo vs Morpheus

Yea, we did that as a bunkai. I goofed on my landing once and accidentally separated my shoulder. Oops!

I'm not saying that's the only interpretation. But boy is that fun! Imagine my joy when - years after I separated a shoulder while learning it - I saw it on the big screen.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Tensho was developed as a variation of Sanchin for open hand technique (reportedly from concepts in the Bubishi).

That makes a lot of sense to me. Both forms are training the power development for fundamental movements. There's really only 2-3 techniques in tensho that aren't in Uechi sanchin and those got pulled into Uechi hojo-undo. So it is easy to see how they're related.

It is what it is. If that creates order in your brain, then that's a good thing.

The first part of the form with the closed fists really is no different than the beginning of the "long form Seisan" vs. "short form Seisan" in Uechi Ryu. In other words, totally optional, and a way to remind you that it's all connected.

The person who threw Goju Ryu together was very different than the person who threw Uechi Ryu's kata together. Some folks (like Gary Khoury) believe you should acknowledge a dominant side and run with it. Others believe you should train your body to be completely ambidexterous, and let happen what happens.

The Goju instructional forms are all about bringing ambidexterity to the Goju classical forms. Everything is done on both sides. There's no need to practice kata in "mirror image" to get that.

Sanchin (both kinds) and Tensho are essentially ambidexterous exercises of the core movements.

You are right about one thing, Dana, and in a way you hadn't really thought to bring up. Uechi Ryu's hojoundo bring that ambidexterous training ideology into Kanbun's system in a way that "the big three" (Sanchin, Seisan, Sanseiryu) do not. Many practitioners of the style (including yours truly) don't stop there. They dissect all kata and make the students do all movements in any number of ways and combinations. And this means teaching ambidexterity as well.

So when you take the closed-fisted stuff out of Tensho (as in taking the first three thrusts out of Uechi Seisan), then you get down to the meat of the form. And that form is a fairly involved laundry list of open-handed ukes (receiving techniques) in the system.

I like teaching Tensho to Uechika. But to me it's taking those simple circles at the end and running hog-wild with the elements.

The wrist movements (koi no shippo tatte uchi) really are a whole other kettle of fish. They're not in Uechi Sanchin. And like Milton Berle and his joke about plagiarism in comedy, Kanei knew some good techniques when he stole them.

Also note the "yama" (mountain) postures towards the end. They're sort of like the closed gate posture, and sort of different. (The elbows intentionally come out more.)

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

The more you look at all the myriad variations shown by Victor and then consider Uechi's own Sanchin, the easier it is to come to one of his stated hypotheses.

Hiagonna Kanryo reportedly returned from China with Sanchin. The kata wasn't as much a fixed form but a set of training.

The name in the end is semantics. We have essentially a body of exercise sets that the Chinese probably felt quite comfortable leaving loose the way a jazz musician doesn't care about how he did something yesterday.

In Okinawa and Japan, they standardized and codified various routines off of that body of human movement. They're good at doing that.

It reminds me just a little bit of going through YouTube and looking at various versions of the Turkish stand-ups (get-ups). There's sort of a core way of doing it. But there are embellishments on the core, and myriad variations on some of the movements. And then you see people arguing online about whether you should be looking forward (my preference) or up at the weight.

At the end of the day, the answer is clear. What I do is right, and what you do suks.

But seriously... that flip comment has a tiny element of truth in it.

It's my observation that most people's Sanchins really aren't that good. It seems the sooner someone settles on the "what" and starts spending more time on the "how", the sooner they appear to start demonstrating good mechanics. It's a lesson to folks who think they've gotta have that one more kata. There are a few kata geniuses out there who can do so many and do them all well. But most folks really need to spend a lot more time on the "how."

If you have a great guru or you are a gifted athlete, then it doesn't matter "what" you do so long as you're getting the "how." But really good teachers are few and far between. So the thing Okinawa added to this body of knowledge is structure so that students could get to the "how" quicker without having to rely on bumping into that rare guru who was so good and taught so extemporaneously.

- Bill

[Dana Sheets]

You are right about one thing, Dana, and in a way you hadn't really thought to bring up. Uechi Ryu's hojoundo bring that ambidexterous training ideology into Kanbun's system in a way that "the big three" (Sanchin, Seisan, Sanseiryu) do not.

Telepathic are you?

In classical chinese training, the teacher only shows/works with you on one side. It is then assumed that you're going to figure out the mirror image for balanced, whole body development. You don't need a mnemonic for both sides. The big three cover everything in hojo-undo and, if the parts of the kata are trained correctly, hojo-undo would be unnecessary. Hojo-undo was added after the classical way of teaching was abandoned.

[Panther]

This is a wonderful thread! I really want to say "Thank You" to everyone for the great, thoughtful, thorough, informative posts.

In that light I almost hesitate to say anything further... almost. (When have you known this cat to stop purring for long! )

The crux of the matter is that too many people think that kata are THE moves for fighting. I see that all the time... hell, I thought that at one time. They're not. They're the concepts, the principles, the foundations... which is why they are taught in "building blocks" where you will see many (if not all) of the moves from earlier kata in the later ones. If one uses the moves taught in kata as strict fighting techniques without understand that it is the "how" you need to be learning and the ability to adapt that "how", then you're going to miss out. (and not understand why things didn't go your way when the proverbial rubber met the road). As Bill-Sensei points out, there are some folks who are kata geniuses (and I'm impressed by many of them... I even did pretty good in competition kata myself when I was a young buck), but kata aren't fighting. In many regards, once one has gotten past the "building blocks" phase, one can practice a very few kata for all the concepts, principles, foundation, technique reinforcement that one needs. (It is still good to do the "building blocks" in order to focus on the fundamentals, but... I'm just saying... )

That's why the last few posts have had me reading going, "yes, Yes, YES!"

Thanks again...

[maxwell ainley]

In the big three from yesteryear you would not be doing a kata one side only ,you would be doing them both sides Ikyryoko fashion .

Max.

[Bill Glasheen]

In the big three from yesteryear you would not be doing a kata one side only ,you would be doing them both sides Ikyryoko fashion .

Max.

I haven't seen this practice everywhere, Max. David Finkelstein turned me on to it decades ago. But other than that, I don't see a lot of other lineages doing this.

I've heard some people speak passionately about having and maintaining a dominant side rather than train to be ambidextrous. Gary Khoury comes to mind. And he's done some time on Okinawa, including with Nakahodo Sensei.

I frankly don't know what Kanbun did in this regard. If you or others have documentation on this, it would be fun to explore it.

- Bill

[Victor Smith]

This practice, doing the kata with reverse iis rarely found in other arts.

There are some in tai chi who practice their form reverse, and I even recall one group only does the yang form in reverse.

I have on occasion worked many of my kata this way, and even starting from the end working to the beginning in standard and mirror image. It's a nice intellectual exercise but I don't see it as a stustaining practice.

Logically any technique application study can find a technique works (say 98% of the time) against any attack right or left, so working the kata in reverse to balance yourself against a left attack doesn't necessarily mean that is required.

Come to think of it the way Tom Chan shared Uechi Sanchin one time he'd start with the left, the next time he'd start with the right too.

Shame there's not unlimited time to study every potential aspect of our arts isn't it.

[Bill Glasheen]

For years when at UVa and teaching hoards of young, bright people, I had a test format that encouraged the mirror-image practice. In any test, you'd have to perform your highest kata the regular way, and the next highest in mirror image.

These days I do less of kata by rote, and spend a lot more time drilling specific aspects of the forms. In this manner I'm able to have folks do sequences on both sides. That works out pretty well.

As I am want to say, Uechi kata are less story books and more reference books. Hence spending lots of time working on the pieces and parts in myriad ways seems to make a lot more sense. This way one can get creative with variations, rearrange sequences, practice things on both sides, work on one or more bunkai with a partner, etc. Doing so however requires that the instructor know the material well and have a strong streak of curiosity and creativity.

- Bill

[maxwell ainley]

Bill,
Its good to converse with you ,on practices over the years.
I came at uechi from a certain angle, you from another angle ,from my viewpoint i thank you for your input ,such as it makes me inspect what I do .

Anyway I value working both sides .

"Kanbun never taught or demonstrated a kata in its entirety.He taught a method he called Ikyoryo, meaning one move at a time with explosive power .

A very natural out come of this approach and practice is; addressing left and right .plus you have the time in class to do it ,one reason is you have the bare minimum of uechi material at your disposal ,providing you are not at the level were you can create more things ,this is a factor were study of three kata can become misleading to folk .
Lets say a practioner is at a level were he/she have two kata only Sanchin /seisan ,and its done Ikyoryo style of practice ,you have hellave a lot of practice material here ,the bulk of a workout is taken up here ,with time out for free sparring /conditioning .
Left and right practice issues are quite easily absorbed into this format

[Bill Glasheen]

Max

This makes sense. And it's a style of teaching that I seem to be evolving to.

As I've said many times, kata are reference books and not storybooks. You would never read The Encyclopedia Britannica from beginning to end. You go into a volume and get what you need, and use it in whatever fashion suits your purpose.

We still do kata from beginning to end, but only after I've spent time drilling on pieces and parts that are of interest that day. And I do said parts on both sides.

If you've never done it before, try a Seisan jump in mirror image. Or the final crane movement in Seichin. Messes most people up every time. And yet if you spend time drilling it seven ways to Sunday, you have all sorts of interesting pieces and parts that you can use - with or without weapons.

- Bill

[maxwell ainley]

Max

This makes sense. And it's a style of teaching that I seem to be evolving to.

As I've said many times, kata are reference books and not storybooks. You would never read The Encyclopedia Britannica from beginning to end. You go into a volume and get what you need, and use it in whatever fashion suits your purpose.

We still do kata from beginning to end, but only after I've spent time drilling on pieces and parts that are of interest that day. And I do said parts on both sides.

If you've never done it before, try a Seisan jump in mirror image. Or the final crane movement in Seichin. Messes most people up every time. And yet if you spend time drilling it seven ways to Sunday, you have all sorts of interesting pieces and parts that you can use - with or without weapons.

- Bill

Bill I agree,you have the full kata plus the parts . two sides of a coin .
I have tended to be more the parts ,only now and again do I
whip through full katas .
This is how I tend to see things, a growing in depth study of the parts will foster more meaning to the full kata ,plus its the mix of parts you will be fighting with ,I think this is 100% in line with Kanbun's approach to the fight situations ,and for these fight situations a growing skill usage in both left and right use of the parts will give you a edge .
If we feel what Sanchin is offering truly feel ,it will not be a southpaw its attempting to produce in us all.