Perhaps a force of nature?

Victor Smith · Post by **Victor Smith** » Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:20 am

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:36 pm

Victor Smith wrote:
forgive me father for I have sinned?

We don't get lots of warm and fuzzies for critiquing here. There are the faithful, and then there are the detractors. And boy do they not like each other - which can lead to emotional talk.

Mr. Dillman has done much for martial arts, and the MA world owes him gratitude. He's also walked on the wild side a bit - enough so that it warrants a "BS flag" now and then. But hey, at least he's out there. You have to give the guy credit for being both martial artist and uber marketer.

When I get a chance, I'll review the forms. Should be interesting.

- Bill

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:46 pm

Well I couldn't leave without looking at maybe a few kata. I started with Sanchin. My thoughts.

Obviously a strong stance
Arm posture is all wrong in sanchin. The elbows are not supposed to be flared out farther than the wrist. This is a beginner error.
The circle movements are wrong. Not just curious, but wrong. The hand that starts down finishes down.
I can't figure out what he's doing in the forward/backwards part. I know a "sanchin dai ni" (he's doing a sanchin dai ichi). Honestly it looks like he never quite learned the "yama" postures.
He spends way more time doing breathing than he does movement. It is what it is. Personally for me Sanchin is about learning how to coordinate breathing WITH movement. So I really can't figure out what he's doing that can't be done with a simple set of deep breathing exercises done with a natural posture.

My opinion (FWIW, which may not be much) is he never learned the kata correctly, and doesn't really care much for it. I've seen this a lot with people who were tournament champions, as Mr. Dillman was. He'd rather just fight.

It wouldn't do much good critiquing this more without looking at how his teacher did it, as well as his teacher's teacher.

- Bill

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:50 pm

As for the Seiuchin (the other kata I looked at), well... he wouldn't win any kata championships with that form. No zip. No life. Arms are waving without any connection to what the body is doing.

I realize he looks to kata these days for direction on his kyusho. But I was always taught that kyusho should be the poison on the end of the spear. The spear alone should get the job done.

- Bill

Victor Smith · Post by **Victor Smith** » Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:55 pm

(With a twinkle in my eye) I was surprised to see these posted, but in the days I lived in Pennsylvania (as an younger black belt) these were consistent with his student's performances.

I'm not suggesting there is one way to make things work, fully acknowledging very different or even contradictory approaches to training can be effective, but as I study kata this is not what I work towards though age is doing it all the same. Age has an effect without doubt.

Mr. Dillman was a tournament champion before my time, but I understand he was mostly one in kata and kobudo. I also understand he frequently used Pai Lum Kuen for his empty hand comptetition.

Not having seen him compete I was never able to reconcile this approach to kata mechanics with competition.

Panther · Post by **Panther** » Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:41 pm

Just because Bill-Sensei said he looked at it, I looked too. And while the basic form is there, that's just not Seiuchin as I learned it.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:41 pm

I wanted to find an example of Seiunchin kata (note the proper spelling) that I liked. Oy! There's a lot of garbage out there.

Here's a little history that I found on an Isshinryu site.

Seiunchin Kata

Meaning: Marching far quietly.

History: Legends tell that Seiunchin Kata is named after a famous Chinese martial artist. The Okinawan master Kanryo Higashionna is said to be responsible for developing Seiunchin Kata after training in Ch’uan fa. The Seiunchin Kata practiced by most Isshin Ryu karateka was refined by Tatsuo Shimabuku, but the essential form (from Goju Ryu) was developed by Chojun Miyagi. The Isshin Ryu Karate-Do version is derived from Goju-Ryu Karate-do. It is known as “The War Kata”.

Distinguishing Characteristics: Seiunchin Kata features more wide, deep stances (soto hachiji tachi) than any other kata in Isshin Ryu Karate-do. The original kata featured much deeper stances (a trait of Goju-Ryu Karate-do) and because of this there are no kicking techniques.

Here is Mr. Dillman.

Dillman Seiunchin

This particular version isn't exactly as I would perform it. But the execution is nice and it's pretty close to what I learned in Shorei Kai Goju Ryu (Seikichi Toguchi lineage). If performed in a tournament, I'd give it extremely high marks for precision, dynamic range, whole body connectivity, and a sense of purpose in motion.

Seiunchin Kata - Goju-ryu

- Bill

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:33 pm

While I don't like Mr. Dillman's performance of Naha-style kata, I do like the way he does this classic - particularly in the second half.

Kata Bassai - George A. Dillman

My one comment though is... WHICH BASSAI IS THIS??

- Bill

Victor Smith · Post by **Victor Smith** » Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:01 am

Bill,

Just for contrast this is the way I've practiced and taught Seiunchin the past 37 years, using one of my senior students (Young Lee) for the demonstration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aupXGh3Q8c

We strive for a blend of hard and soft in the execution, but our application studies are not done slow.

There is considerable contrast between diffferent Isshinryu instructors, and this only represents my studied with Tom Lewis.

As you can see I have a very hard time contrasting this version to George Dillman's.

History is interesting but what our students can work towards imo is more important.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:41 am

The timing and execution of that Seiunchin is a bit different. But this fellow does have good caffeine in his motions.

- Bill

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Thu Jul 08, 2010 1:25 am

Wow, Dillman's performance of those kata were pretty bad. Especially for someone of advanced rank.

Bill, I'm not sure what version of Bassai that is. I've done quite a bit of Shotokan Bassai which looks like good old regular Passai. Dillman's version seem to be missing parts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2wAqLJZnYM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7fHS9gd0tU

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Thu Jul 08, 2010 1:37 am

Maybe Dillman's Bassai is a variation of Passai Dai.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wyvse0F ... re=related

or maybe this Tomari version
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kagenn4dbhA

Victor Smith · Post by **Victor Smith** » Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:11 pm

I concurr the Dillman bassai is a variation of the Kyan patsai (oft times referred to as Tomari patsai).

Patasi was one of Kyan's kata Shimabuku Tatsuo didn't include in his Isshinryu kata (but used as the base for his own SunNuSu kata).

In the same way the Dillman Seisan is most likely from the Kise Fuse Seisan, still remaining a variation.

He tends to shorten technique sections or techniques in his versions of all his kata.

I also think his performance on those video's is fulfilling his teachings (in his kyusho) that it doesn't matter how you do your kata (especially no reason to sweat to have good technique) as long as you understand it's lessons where to strike. I imagine that makes his teachings more marketable to a wider range of schools (one's that do bad kata for instance IMVHO).

On Patsai in 1979 a book was published with 15 different versions (including Funakoshi's Bassai Dai). I have a copy and on the whole (with small variations) there are essentially 3 patsai approaches.

the Matsumura Patsai (focusing on head striking attacks)
the Kyan Patsai (focusing on open hand striking attacks)
the Itosu/Funkakoshi Patsai focusing on blocking (either defensive or offensive depending on your analysis).

All the rest are variations on those themes.

As an Isshinryu stylist I was first interested in the Kyan patsai, but when I saw and understood the oldest variation, the Matsumura Patsai and saw how it was focusing on striking it interested me most.

Looking at Patsai, however, I developed my own theory on the Okinawan statement, don't change kata. It's obvious everyone changed the kata, but they didn't really change the embusen. Perhaps by keeping the embusen of the kata movement they were still touching the original core body movement and not changing the kata, where the externals were then instructors following their visions?

Of course I still have a hard time following the Dillman bassai from the earlier answers.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:38 pm

Mike and Victor

Thanks for your rich commentary. It all makes sense.

I had a Shotokan student (Farino Furman) who was quite the quick study, and got a shodan in Uechi from me in very short order. Along the way, I've offered to teach ANYONE the handful of kobudo forms I know. I've managed to collect a few which IMNSHO are some of the better, older, and "more complete." In other words if you learn this form and practice it, that's all you really need to get good at this weapon from a fighting standpoint.

One kata was Hamahiga no tonfa. I learned it from Yonamine, who is one of Uechi Ryu's supermen. He does demonstrations where people break bats over his shins, and one of his students became All Okinawa Champion. You get the idea. Anyhow the version he taught me of Hamahiga no tonfa blended really well with Uechi Ryu Seisan.

So Reno (nickname of Farino) was a quick study with this tonfa form. But as I was teaching him the kata and the parallels with Uechi Seisan, he got all excited and was showing me how much it blended with Bassai.

Here is a kick-ass version of Bassai. Unlike what's shown by the above-named master, this one is mechanically sound. (I am in awe...)

Kata Bassai Dai

To give you an idea of what I'm talking about, check out the two techniques from 0:58 to 1:01. When you first look at that and try to do it, your reaction may be WTF???. However... put a pair of tonfa in your hands and then try it. If you understand the principle of sequential summation of motion (e.g. a body wave), you can get that tonfa to whip at the end of your hand like there's no tomorrow. That Aha! makes you understand that there's more to kata than touching your cooperative students on owie points and expecting them to drop. As I've said before, kyusho is supposed to be the poison on the end of the spear, and not the spear.

Interestingly enough, versions of the Tomari Passai make that same sequence look like you're doing chudan ukes to two different angles rather than doing a body-whipping strike straight ahead. Go figure...

Anyhow I'd be curious to know from Victor and/or Mike which version of Bassai that is. I've seen it in tournaments before. And I really like that execution of it.

- Bill

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:59 pm

Victor Smith wrote:
I also think his performance on those video's is fulfilling his teachings (in his kyusho) that it doesn't matter how you do your kata (especially no reason to sweat to have good technique) as long as you understand it's lessons where to strike. I imagine that makes his teachings more marketable to a wider range of schools (one's that do bad kata for instance IMVHO).

The thing that worries me, Victor, is "lessons" the choreographers have in mind. If they're based on Chinese Cycle of Creation/Destruction theory, then you can throw those forms in the trash can. To the extent they're trying to teach you sequences, the theory is bunk. If they're based on someone who actually fought battles and found sequences which dropped an uncooperative enemy, well then I'm all ears.

I don't expect that any of the choreographers understood modern anatomy and physiology. A lot of what the great choreographers put together was a combination of an intuitive understanding of body mechanics (on the internal side) and trial-and-error on what works (on the external side). Forms based on this KISS foundation are forms which grab my attention.

Victor Smith wrote:
On Patsai in 1979 a book was published with 15 different versions (including Funakoshi's Bassai Dai). I have a copy and on the whole (with small variations) there are essentially 3 patsai approaches.

the Matsumura Patsai (focusing on head striking attacks)
the Kyan Patsai (focusing on open hand striking attacks)
the Itosu/Funkakoshi Patsai focusing on blocking (either defensive or offensive depending on your analysis).

All the rest are variations on those themes.

Excellent summary, and thanks. Is this book still available? Are there videos available which do the same?

- Bill

Perhaps a force of nature?

Perhaps a force of nature?

Re: Perhaps a force of nature?