Perhaps a force of nature?

[Victor Smith]

Again Hi Bill,

The Bassai video you're showing is a solid Shotokan one.

I do think you're accurately describing why changes took place in a kata history such as patsai. Somebody understands a different attack and moves a little differently to address it with their kata.

Especially in the past where there was no 'historical record' available. So if you made a change and taught it your student may not have had record of what was before the change. As I said I personally see 3 distinct themes in the passai variations.

Unfortunately, outside of our own analysis, we can't determine what the creator(s) intended. And I'm in the logical analysis of any technique potential, on how I can use it side, not terribly concerned about the past per sae.

I've copied my version of that book into a .pdf file for my use, but I don't distribute it. I sincerely trust your interest, if you write me at isshim2@comcast.net I'm sure we can discuss getting you a copy. It is fascinating looking for the similarities and differences.

It's been a while in my video searchs since I've tried to find current versions. I'll make it a project tonight (if the heat isn't too unberable - it's been a real bear in NH the past few days).

Unfortunately the best source I have is a video made by a friend in Japan and not on youtube containing different versions, especially a great one of the Itosu patsai.

[Bill Glasheen]

I was looking for some bunkai of Bassai. I expected to see bad stuff and good stuff. And that's what I found.

The bad to the point of being an absolute embarassment.

Bunkai do Bassai-Dai

The good.

Bassai Bunkai... HEY! You Got Judo In My KARATE!!!

Now you know why I blended my aikido with my karate, Joe Pomfret blended his BJJ with his Uechi, etc., etc.

Traditional karate bunkai should not be about fighting karate people. That's like kissing your sister. They're about self defense situations. And most bunkai I've seen of traditional Okinawa te that make sense involve a mix of grappling and striking methods.

- Bill

[MikeK]

Gotta run but...
http://www.24fightingchickens.com/files ... -05-02.pdf

[Panther]

I wanted to find an example of Seiunchin kata (note the proper spelling) that I liked. Oy! There's a lot of garbage out there.

ummmm... shoulda corrected that...

This particular version isn't exactly as I would perform it. But the execution is nice and it's pretty close to what I learned in Shorei Kai Goju Ryu (Seikichi Toguchi lineage). If performed in a tournament, I'd give it extremely high marks for precision, dynamic range, whole body connectivity, and a sense of purpose in motion.

Seiunchin Kata - Goju-ryu

- Bill

That's pretty close to the way I learned it. It's always been one of my favorites, even after the knees & back problems caused trouble doing the soto shiko dachi (or actually IIRC it would be soto sochin dachi because it's at 45 degrees... anyway...) there are a few other things that I learned a little differently, but this one's the closest I've seen.

[Panther]

Bill-Sensei,

That's why I always enjoyed mixin karate' with ju-jitsu!

[Victor Smith]

Bill, as promised:

The book was Patsai by Sawabe Shiberu – 1977
The following list of kata is what the book contained. I’ve tried to locate versions on YouTube that seem to be named the same. I haven’t taken the time to compare the video’s to the book to verify at this time.
Chibana no Passai http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCfT5wnAy2E
There are three Passai/Patsai/Bassai kata in Miyahira Sensei's Shidokan: Passai Sho, Passai Dai and Koryu Passai. Chibana Sensei kept a version of Matsumura no Passsai following Itosu Sensei's advice, which he called Passai Dai; Itosu no Passai became Passai Sho-THIS is the kata on this video. Shidokan's Koryu Passai is called Passai Sho in Shotokan.

Tawada no Passai http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNyUSsKAW5c
Higa Yuchoku performing Matsumura Passai. This version is also known as Tawada Passai

Matsumura no Passai http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yl5OJGOp9BA
Miyazato Karate Do - Kata Matsumura no Passai & Kata Kooryu Passai

Oyadomari no Passai http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kagenn4dbhA
differences between the Tomari-te of Matsumora and Oyadomari, for example, this later had his own version of Passai (known as Oyadomari-no-Passai) while Matsumora preserved the original Tomari Passai, that is shorter (These two versions being Tomari no Passai Dai & Tomari-no-Passai Sho).

Matsumora no Passai http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroE4Ukfw-E
Matsumura no Passai of Sensei Bud Morgan

Kyan no Passai http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2wAqLJZnYM
Chotoku Kyan version of Passai. Originally from Pechin Oyadomari of Tomari. Performed by Zenpo Shimabukuro of the Seibukan.

Motobu no Passai http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4Z_0qY4CAg
Shimabukuro Sensei in which he taught the Passai Guwa kata. This kata was taught to him by Nakama Chozo (1898-1982). Master Nakama in turn was taught the form by Motobu Choki (1870-1944). This very rarely seen kata is sometimes refered to as Motobu Passai.

Tomari Passai http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3QKA7hicbI
TOMARI BASAI STYLE JYOSHINMON SHORIN RYU KATATE DO

Ishimine no Passai http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RlWeruordg

Itosu no Passai http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7fHS9gd0tU
Kata Itosu no passai in the Shirasagi style of Okinawan Shorinryu Shidokan Karate.

Shotokan Bassai http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wW2oCU0_IYI
Enoeda & Nakayama Bassai Dai http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hhooy5dZ_1Q
Nakayama Legacy: Bassai Dai Kata Bunkai http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0OLknQHQ-c

Personal side note on bunkai. Bunkai is not an Okinawan term, but one developed in Japan using the term bunkai as ‘to take apart to fix’ to represent their efforts to show the use of kata technique (and eventually this term moved into some Okinawan groups.

In the Kyan lineage, Kyan only taught kata, not kata applications. Many of the groups derived from his teachings did the same. Kata techniques were taught as specific responses to specific attacks, but the purpose of training was not to be taught an application or applications for all techniques. Students were challenged to work them out themselves.

I can’t say how far this was the standard in other groups, but there are hints it may have been the core of Itosu’s teachings. Shiroma Shimpan’s description in Nakasone’s ‘Karate do Taikan’ seems to suggest this (My personal analysis at this time).

But Bunkai seems to have first been used by Mabuni Kenwa in the 1930’s to explain how Shito Ryu Goju kata could be used. He was writing for a Japanese audience and had no Okinawan term to explain what he did. Mabuni was both a student of Itosu and of Hiagonna Kanryo (instructor of Miyagi Chogun) and incorporated both instructors kata in his system.

[eric235u]

you guys know plenty i don't. that's a fact. but i'm a long time fight fan. i know a freakin' fraud bum joke lame when i see one. dillman is bum. a con man. it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to see it. everything he does *****. he is not worth your time and knowledge. clearly. here's a vid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z0_n7tGnK0

oh and kata is horrible. i would openly mock him on the dojo floor. and his chi wammy wouldn't stop me. ;)

[Victor Smith]

Eric,

Hi, I understand your feelings but would suggest you try and understand the picture of George Dillman is more than some kata video or performances.

He was one of the original group of instuctors who helped establish karate in Pennsylvania from the 1960's onward. He established a group of schools, developed strong students in their style and promoted two very large regional tournamnets a year for probably 30 years.
In Karate tournament origins he was a strong competitor for that age.


Yes he was always a self promoter, dozens of magazine articles, and always had supporters and detractors.

Eventually he saw marketing potential in the matrial Oyata Seriu was sharing and picked up enough to market it himself. And I'm sure made a whole lot of money in the process. And being in marketing the arts and making money you're always looking for a new hook, which is where I suspect the no touch ko demonstrations came from.

Theres enough in his life to admire and dislike, depending on how deep you look.

To me seeing those kata which I only have some memories of his senior students competing with (in divisions I as competing in myself) they were using the same kata, but were more forceful, etc. My interest if first trying to recognize what Dillman did to 'create' them. His performance could have just been low level walk through, or it could be everying he had. I have no answer for that but I don't assume anybodies vidoes shows anything but that moement in time, and not their intent or reason.

Historically many karate performances were changed pubically to hide the art. The kata in the 70's magazines by senior Japanese practitioners were often 'changed' to make sure nobody could learn the right kata. And especially from China there is a long history of doing stunt performances in public. The no touch KO might just be that, interesting entertainment.

Things are never as simple to understand as it is to form opinions.

[Bill Glasheen]

I pretty much agree with most of the sentiments expressed by Victor.

The naked eye should be able to see that - even in his advanced age - Mr. Dillman was a remarkable physical presence. I've had the chance to lay my hands on thousands of Sanchins (in Sanchin checking/testing) for perhaps hundreds of thousands of times. You get to the point in this business where you can size a person up at a glance. When my eyes see Mr. Dillman, they say he most likely could have put a hurt on someone once upon a time, but he's let himself go since that physical peak. I don't see him capable of complex movement. But then when it comes to the kind of violence and self-defense that Van talks about, fine motor coordination doesn't exist. Complex motor coordination is compromised for all but the most gifted and/or best mentally conditioned. So sometimes KISS isn't just good enough; it can be the absolute best way to go on the street.

In my tournament fighting days, the best fighters had just a couple of techniques that they spent all their time trying to set up.

In any case, Mr. Dillman has that presence.

All that being said, I wouldn't study from him. He's an uber marketer; I'm a scientist. His "hook" as Victor so succinctly put it doesn't interest me. But for every experienced martial artist with a critical eye, there are ten or more who are looking for that edge, that shortcut, or that recipe for a secret sauce. Mystique has followed martial arts into this country, and it has flourished in the land of PT Barnum. You have no idea how much some students are attracted to an Asian accent and poorly-spoken English. It's like my British apartment mate back in my UVa days who could speak filthy to women at a party and they'd giggle because they thought it sounded cute with a British accent. What the heck... he got laid a lot. I just sat back and marveled at it all.

Many martial arts students want to believe in something. Go back to the first part of the twentieth century where boys sent money to The Charles Atlas Program because they didn't want sand kicked in their face any more. Now bring that formula forward to Asian guys breaking things. (Dillman had his breaking phase...) The kyusho was a half-truth which gave him a leg up on the competition, and kept his business model going. Money talks. Kung fu wasn't on television any more, Bruce Lee was dead, and interest in martial arts was waning. And then you find this next "hook" that keeps that revenue stream going. And a marketing genius isn't going to let that slide - particularly if he's hungry enough.

I was fine with the kyusho - even though the "theory" (based on five elements and the cycle of creation/destruction) is absolute medical rubbish. But what-ever... We used aspirin for generations before we knew why it worked and developed a science around NSAIDs. At least they had some "owie points" mapped out, and we could begin to try stuff out on our own.

I raised the "BS flag" with the no-touch KOs. We tested an expert at no-touch martial arts at camp once, and he proved to do worse than random chance. So this is where you begin to see that someone's substance has wandered into the realm of cult and PT Barnum theater - all for a buck. That part needs to be exposed. If we are generous - and I try to be with someone who's been in it for so long - then at best we can say someone began to believe in their own marketing hype and the power of suggestion. And that won't buy you squat when you're all alone on the street.

Sooo.... It's complicated.

- Bill

[Glenn]

The kata in the 70's magazines by senior Japanese practitioners were often 'changed' to make sure nobody could learn the right kata.

Reportedly Shinpo Matayoshi would always perform altered versions of his kata in public displays and for video productions up until his death in the late 90s, for the same reason.

And especially from China there is a long history of doing stunt performances in public. The no touch KO might just be that, interesting entertainment.

The historical aspects of performance displays are interesting, and often overlooked. We look at demonstrations such as no-touch KO today from our cultural point of view, not to mention some level of understanding of how the martial arts work from our own training, and it is easy to condescend such performances. But historically they seemed to fill many roles, including drumming up new students.

Such demonstrations seem more out of place in today's day and age, but I wonder what those in the know in previous eras, say 19th century China, also truly thought of them.

So does the current era of everything being recorded for posterity now make it easier to for these performances to dominate perception of the martial arts or for the realistic aspects to win out...or has nothing changed after hundreds of years even with the new media technology?

[Bill Glasheen]

Glenn

I think the 24/7 Internet, YouTube, MMA competition, and free speech has helped eliminate much of the garbage. Not all of it, mind you... But it's much easier for a person to be well-informed.

And it's much harder to keep secrets.

There's still room however for a few good men (and women) to make a career out of unique niches in the martial realm that have nothing to do with sport karate, losing weight, or making your kids do better in school. Many people still can't get their brains around the diversity that exists in the martial play space.

- Bill

[Victor Smith]

You know when it came to showmanship there was Joseph Goldstein the "Mighty Atom".

As an old mad I'd see him perform at the York Fair, bending horseshoes, biting nails in half... and he was just a little old guy. I recall his Grandson was a Kung Fu stylist.

He made his living at Fairs and Carnies selling a health tonic and performing strong man stunts, and embarrassing young women about why he was called the Man of Iron.

The discussion about George Dillman just made me recall the resemblence.....

[Bill Glasheen]

I had to search far and wide for some documentation on that vaudeville act, Victor. But I found a nice piece online.

The more I read about him, Victor, the more I see there was some substance beneath the hype. After evolving away from a lot of "modern" weight training methods and a little more towards the old basics that work (e.g. olympic lifts, Turkish stand-ups) I'm developing a greater appreciation for some of these old-school strongmen. Yes, there is much hype. But some of them really were that good.

Note the martial link.

- Bill

The Mighty Atom - Strongman

Strongman who became known as The World's Biggest Little Man
Born: 1893 - Suvalk, Poland
Died: October 8, 1977 - Brooklyn, New York



Joseph Greenstein, a.k.a. The Mighty Atom was born a sickly child in a small village in Poland. More than once during his childhood doctors were certain he would not survive, but he managed to make it through.

When he was a young teenager, he was caught sneaking under a tent into the circus and severely beaten by an angry stagehand. He was rescued from the beating by a circus strongman named Champion Volanko who decided to put the boy under his wing and trained him on strengthening his body and mind.

Greenstein traveled with Volanko and the Issakov Brothers' Circus for the next 18 months. After leaving the circus, a changed man, both physically and mentally, he moved back home, married, and began wrestling under the name "Kid Greenstein."

Soon after he immigrated to America with his family, settling in Galveston, Texas where he worked in oil fields. In 1914, a man who was obsessed with Greenstein's wife, shot him right between the eyes, and as the story goes, the bullet merely flattened on his forehead.

As a result of this near death experience, Greenstein became determined to hone both his mind and body and began developing many unusual feats of strength. Soon, the 5'5, 145 lb Greenstein was traveling the country as a strongman under the pseudonym of The Mighty Atom.

Some of his feats of strength included:

* Pulling a 32 ton truck with his hair.
* Holding back an airplane with his hair.
* Lying on a bed of nails supporting a 14 person band on his chest.
* Breaking up to three chains by expanding his chest.
* Removing a car tire from its rim, bending steel bars, spikes and horse shoes, all with his bare hands.
* Driving spikes into wood planks with his palm.

The Mighty Atom became a huge sensation on the vaudeville circuit traveling throughout the United States and Europe. He was considered to be one of the most remarkable strongmen of the 20th Century--A modern day Sampson. His most famous exploit took place on September 29th, 1928 at the Buffalo Airport, when in front of a large crowd of witnesses, he held his ground with his hair tied to an airplane accelerating at 60mph.

One of the Mighty Atom's deeply held beliefs was essentially that "if you think you can do something, you can do something, just by conquering your own mind." Through a combination of Asian concentration methods and Jewish mystical writings, he taught himself how to unlearn the mechanism that forces us to stop doing things when we think we have reached our physical limits. He was a vegetarian, although at the time such a diet was almost unheard of.

Throughout his life, Greenstein actively supported Jewish causes and helped sell World War I and II war bonds. During World War II, The Mighty Atom gave jujitsu and judo demonstrations to help recruit men into the New York Police Department, which was running low on recruits.

He continued to perform his strongman act until he was 83 years old, when he gave his last performance at Madison Square Garden on May 11, 1977. A biography of him was written by Ed Speilman called The Spiritual Journey of Joseph L. Greenstein: The Mighty Atom, World's Strongest Man."

He died in Brooklyn, at the age of 84.


Interesting Facts

* The Mighty Atom was featured several times in "Ripley's Believe it or Not."
* The 1976 Guinness Book of World Records cites him as having "the world's strongest bite."
* He traveled in an old Model A truck full of citations from civic leaders and press clippings.
* He was honored by NYC Mayor LaGuardia for his contributions on behalf of the NYPD.

Posted by Rob Hood

12:59 PM, November 30, 2009

- peopleofthe book

September 6, 2005
By: British Commentator (London, United Kingdom)

Ever heard of man bite through tempered iron with his teeth...or hang from an airplane by his hair? Just because you may not have heard of Joseph "Mighty Atom" Greenstein or his accomplishments it does not mean you should ignore this book, quite the opposite in fact. I got this book as a young child in the 1980's and have read it many times. A riveting and inspirational read. Anyone interested in sports, martial arts, nutrition, spirituality or just looking for a self help guide would be wise to read this. A fascinating life with lessons for all of us...not just philosophical but practical too. Joseph Greenstein was not only the strongest man in the world, he was a giant of a character...raising a large family and much money for charity, providing health lectures and products for thousands of poor Americans. If I had just ten books on a desert island this would be one of them.

[eric235u]

neat info about the mighty atom. i didn't know about him. thanks.

no offense, while i like a good magic show as much as the next guy, i personally prefer no voodoo in my martial arts and sports. if we're going to talk old school strong men i'll take paul anderson. he was a beast for real. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muY0LmeMl9s

i took a kempo class in nyc as a teen by a self described 10th dan master who would do various tricks. i thought it was amazing. but eventually realized that the man completely wasted my time. my step father was a nyc cop and disliked the "master" as soon as he met him.

but to each his own. hope i wasn't too harsh with my first post.

[eric235u]

hey check out this 57 year old. wow. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eH5C3im5ygM