Ultimate Gun Defense

[Panther]

Good discussion, you make excellent points _ I'd like to also hear from Panther on this subject matter…it would be very educational.

Sigh... I've been avoiding any comment on this thread. I am very sorry to hear of Bert's loss... and also (re)saddened to (re)read your cousin's loss.

My personal experience, in the particular area I live, has been that statistically, accidental shootings, domestic disputes, etc. far outnumber home invasion deaths.

I hope this doesn't sound like a rebuttal, it's just more of my thoughts on the subject.

I know it is tough to lose someone you love (no matter how it happens), but thinking that it was in any way "the gun's fault" for being "easily available" doesn't work for me. Since statistics and accidental shootings were both mentioned, here are some numbers:

• In 2006 (the last year which I have numbers for) there were a total of 30,536 firearms deaths in the U.S. with a population of nearly 300 million.
  
  Of those 30,536, 642 were accidents. I fully agree that a single accidental death is tragic. That represents an accidental firearm death rate of 0.2 per 100,000 and is the accidental death rate for all firearms for all age groups.
  
  Of those 30,536, 12,791 were homocides. Again this is tragic, but someone bent on killing another human will do so with or without a firearm. Also, to reiterate, these figures include all firearms.
  
  Of those 30,536, 16,883 were suicides. Well over half of all firearm deaths in the U.S. were suicides. This makes them no less tragic, but in coutries that have instituted extreme gun control measures (up to and including complete bans on private gun ownership), suicide rates did not fall but the methods to accomplish the task were changed. (It brings a tear to my everytime I think of that poor girl in MA, Phoebe Prince, who took her own life because of being constantly harassed and bullied... She didn't use a firearm... she hung herself over the railing from the second floor... terrible, terrible tragedy... ). That holds worldwide. In Canada, Australia and England firearms suicides dropped, but the overall suicide rates remained constant or even increased with the method of choice changing. Replacement methods became hanging, jumping from tall buildings/bridges/etc, and poisoning (from various substances including taking intentional overdoses of pills to carbon monoxide to injesting lethal chemicals available in many stores). For 2006 in the U.S., the overall suicide number was 33,300. Therefore just over half used firearms (of all types).

Looking at those same numbers for children (without fudging the numbers by claiming that "children" go to age 24 like some anti-gun groups... this is for children from 0-17):

• In 2006 in the U.S., there were 1,579 firearms deaths out of 73,668,012 children ages 0-17.
  
  Of those 1,579, 102 were accidents with about half of those for ages 0-14 & half for 15-17. Again, I fully agree that a single accidental death is tragic and one too many. That is the accidental death rate for all firearms, but compare it to other accidental deaths for children... 934 from drowning, 451 from fire, 416 from poisoning, 138 from cycling, 130 from falling, 1,136 from suffocation... The winner goes to: 4,288 from motor vehicles! And while the reported numbers are less than firearms, there were 91 "environmental" accidental deaths (don't ask me what those are, I'd be guessing) and 64 from MEDICAL accidents.
  
  Of those 1,579, 1,082 were homocides. Again this is tragic, but 797 of those homicides were in the 15-17 age range and includes many "gang bangers". Also, to reiterate (yet again), these figures include all firearms.
  
  Of those 1,579, 371 were suicides. And here's the tragedy of that number... 309 were in the 15-17 age range and 62 were in the 10-14 age range. NO ONE below the age of 10 commited suicide with a firearm. # children from 0-9 commited suicide by other means... While I'm on this tangent, in the 10-14 age range 154 children commited suicide by other means and in the 15-17 age range 412 commited suicide by other means.

So if you look at the entire population and take the accidental firearm deaths for children (0-17), the fact is that there is far less than one in a million chance of a child dying from a firearm accident. AGAIN, one is one too many, but statistically firearms aren't the big killer of our children.

I apologize if this sounds callous and I really don't mean it to be, but numbers are just... well... numbers and statistics are just... well... statistics. The fact is that we need to do more to prevent those who want to take their own lives (by whatever means is not the issue... it's WHY they feel that way). And... more needs to be done to stop those who are out to do harm to others (by whatever means should not be the issue... it's the fact that there are bad people out there that need to be stopped)!

IMNSHO, having a personal rescue tool (a firearm that one is well trained to utilize) is important in stopping the bad guys.

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A pistol-grip, short-barrelled shotgun (with an extended magazine and tactical light attachment) is a good self-defense tool for a home. I have the Remington version of the Mossberg that Sensei posted... but I prefer the tactical Benelli. The 12 ga is a little strong for the wife, so she has a 20 ga, but (except for the fact that ammo is hard to find sometimes) I think the 16 ga is a great shotgun. I don't quite agree with the #8-#9 pellets for every round. Ours are loaded:

Round 1 & 2: #8 Bird-shot
Round 3 - 5: #4 buck shot
Round 6 - 8: #00 buck shot
Round 9 & 10: Rifled Slugs

FYI, Here's the thinking behind that...

First two rounds will do damage close range, but will be stopped by thick wall-board fairly closely.

Next three rounds have pellets that are the same size as a .17 bullet and there are around 27 of them per round (12 ga). They do more damage in case the first two didn't have the desired effect, but they are also stopped by wall-board (barely, but they stop... trust me...)

Next three rounds have pellets that are the same size as a .22 bullet and thare are ~a dozen per round (12 ga). If I have to keep shooting at this point, I'm no longer concerned with what's behind the attacker, the threat hasn't stopped and needs to be stopped!

Last two rounds... If I get to this point, all bets are off and I'm looking to destroy the continuing threat by whatever means necessary.

Shotguns are best for home defense if they are in the configuration above. Otherwise the best bet is a handgun. I once had someone say to me, "Why do you carry a handgun? You expecting trouble?" I replied, "No, if I was expecting trouble I'd have brought a rifle and a tactical shotgun not a handgun! Why do you have a fire-extinguisher in your house? You expecting a fire?" Naturally the answers to his and my questions are the same... No, I'm not expecting anything, but I'm prepared just in case.

And a final word on home defense firearms with kids in the house... I've had fireams of various types in the house as long as I can remember. I have always been taught and always trained that you don't pull the trigger on a target that you have not fully identified.

While the firearms rules that were listed before are the basics, here are my additions/modifications to the firearms rules:

2. Never point a gun at something you do not want to destroy.

Case in point, when I was a young boy I had a toy soldier that I played with and was fond of. My Daddy was target practicing with a .22 rifle and teaching us gun safety and shooting. At one point I said, "Here, shoot THIS!" and proceeded to setup my toy soldier along with the other targets we were replacing. My Daddy proceeded to put a single round directly through the heart area of the little chest of that toy soldier (from ~200'). When we were safe and went to retrieve targets, I said, "Wow, you SHOT it!" My Daddy pointed out that it wasn't any good for playing any more and that's what a gun can do. They don't ask for respect, they DEMAND it.

3 & 4 are part of the NRA's Eddie Eagle program. I've personally paid for that program to be given in around a dozen places (including elementary and middle schools) in the area. Check it out...

5. While this one is good, the fact is that there is only ONE safety for a firearm and that's the one between your ears...

6. Don't rely on gun locks... EVER. I have been able to remove a gun lock provided by the PD that is State and Federal approved by smacking it just the right way! I have been able to fire a handgun with a PROPERLY attached, approved gun-lock. (Yeah, I know they're not supposed to be loaded, but it was for demonstration and I loaded it intentionally to prove the point.) I have been able to "jimmy" open a gun lock using a key from a different gun lock! Yes, I put them on my firearms and you know what... the only damn time they seem to work is when I'm at the range and can't get the key to open the damn thing!

7. If you want to do that, it's up to you. I was once stopped by a cop who asked me if my carry gun was loaded. I told him that it's not any good empty and I don't plan on using it to throw or as a club.

I do NOT think that only military and police should have firearms and I don't believe they should have any special waivers for any rules or laws pertaining to firearms. Safe storage is great... to a point. As I said before and I want to reiterate again... NO ONE should EVER shoot at ANYTHING that they haven't FULLY IDENTIFIED as a target... EVER. I don't care if it's a loud noise in the middle of the night and you wake up and think that the proverbial schit is hitting the phan... It MIGHT be your kid who's snuck out of the house while you were asleep and is too drunk (even underage) to sneak back in quietly. Sure, you get your home defense tool, but you don't USE it unless it is necessary. AND... This I speak of from FIRST-HAND experience with a (now) 24 year-old who got grounded, but certainly wasn't fired on! I've been waken up plenty of times in the middle of the night by "young-uns" and never even come close to shooting one! On the other hand... IF it is truly a home-defense situation... Identify the target and do what needs to be done. I've been waken up in the middle of the night by someone who wasn't supposed to be there as well. Everyone survived that as well... Some in better shape than others.

(BTW, spackle over those little holes that the #8 or #4 make works, but no one ever seems to discuss the mess you have to clean up BEFORE you can spackle the holes... Think about it... The responding PD doesn't do that for you...)

As was said before, this isn't meant to be callous and I'm truly sorry for the tragedies that people have suffered.

[Panther]

[quote="Van Canna]Again…you need a gun as a life insurance policy if you are so inclined. Many people don't feel the need, fear the gun in the house more than a possible invasion, and some would rather die than defend themselves and go to prison to become Bubba's girlfriend.

To each his own. The nightmares will be there with or without the gun.

Most here speak in theory….I speak from family experience in the terror of violence and death. Unless it happens to 'you' it will not be truly understood.[/quote]

All of the ramifications of gun ownership should be studied and understood completely by each person contemplating that choice. There are things that need to be understood before, during and after each gun ownership decision is made. This forum has been very thorough in getting into each of these very indepth over the years. It would take hours and writing a book to rehash. We all have our own reasons for choosing to have or not have a firearm (or multiple firearms or fire-extinguishers for that matter).

For me, I like Denny Crane's position... (Happy 80th to Bill Shatner yesterday...)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KvO-8IvoCI

[Steve Hatfield]

Kentucky I am truly sorry for your loss as well. I do have to agree with Panther on this one. And I might add, after a long stint in law enforcement I've learned that someone who is intent on ending their life will do it. Suicides are rarely people taking opportunities that just happen to pop up. I will also say that, while it is fine to have a firearm in the home for security, it must only be done if the homeowner(s) are willing to practice and become proficient with them. Again, sorry for your loss Kentucky.

[KentuckyUechi]

It sounds like you and your family have seen your share of tragedy. And it definitely shapes one's behavior and beliefs. We can talk theory, all day long, but sadly, it won't sink in until we've experienced a loss, or had a close call.

Getting back to the original subject of this forum, gun safety: Despite my "house rules", and years of firearms safety training (theory). I still got lazy. Did I ever come in from hunting and leave a few rounds in my hunting vest? Did I forget to make sure my son (he's 17) returned all rifle ammo to the ammo box after a deer hunt? ...........Unfortunately yes, on occasion.
If there is a silver lining to tragedies like this. It is the lessons learned, or re-inforced by the event.

So the thugs caught up with them and one of them stuck his foot in the door preventing it from closing while all three of them shouldered it in.

About 16 years ago, I had a state trooper come out and speak to my students re: self defense. One of the key points, I remember was "Never open the door to a stranger. Even if its chained, once they get their toe in the door, or get a good grip on the door. They are in, there is no closing the door at that point."

Another point that probably still holds true. "If someone says they are with UPS, you should see the UPS truck, UPS employees are required to move their trucks to each stop." So for example, they won't park the truck at one end of the block, deliver packages to several stops and then loop back to the truck.

[KentuckyUechi]

Thanks Steve. Great info Panther.

Lots of great info being shared. As I'm sure it has been over the years on this forum. My "rambling" may have confused the issue, or my stance on things. Then again such emotional events and issues of course can cause ones thoughts to ramble a bit as well. Regardless of your stance on firearm use for whatever reason. As one of you mentioned I believe, the most important part is that we address safety issues at all times when dealing with firearms and their use.

[Van Canna]

It is an effective home defense weapon for sure. You can also attach a surefire tactical flashlight to it to blind any intruder...same as placing a sure fire tac/light on this 1911 I have handy....

[Valkenar]

Of those 30,536, 12,791 were homocides. Again this is tragic, but someone bent on killing another human will do so with or without a firearm. Also, to reiterate, these figures include all firearms.

I think an important statistic here is, how many of those homicides were something other than gang or drug-related? How many are domestic violence or Not to dismiss the gravity of any homicide, but I think the important statistic here is, how many homicides were part of a home invasion? That's the real number you need to look at when weighing whether you want a gun to defend yourself in case of home invasion.

If you're going to routinely carry it, then that's another question, and another set of statistics.

Generally speaking, when it comes to homicide, there are a few very high risk groups with very high murder rates, and everyone else has a very low risk. Those 13,000ish homicides aren't evenly distributed across the country.

[Glenn]

• In 2006 (the last year which I have numbers for) there were a total of 30,536 firearms deaths in the U.S. with a population of nearly 300 million.
  
  Of those 30,536, 642 were accidents.
  Of those 30,536, 12,791 were homocides.
  Of those 30,536, 16,883 were suicides.

Panther,

A couple of questions for clarification:
Those three sub-totals fall 220 short of the total, is there another category?
Where are justifiable firearms deaths (police, self-defense, etc) included in this, as "homicides"?
Are there any stats on how many of these deaths were ruled as justified?

Thanks

[Bill Glasheen]

how many homicides were part of a home invasion?

You can't have a firearm homicide as part of a home invasion if the home owner didn't have a firearm to stop it and the criminals chose not to kill their victims with a firearm.

A very famous case here in Richmond involved one stop on a multi-day killing spree. The Harvey family's home was chosen because the front door was unlocked on an Sunday afternoon.

In the early afternoon of January 1, 2006, Kathryn, Bryan, Stella, and Ruby Harvey, a family of four, were found beaten, slashed and bound with electrical cord and tape in the basement of their burning house in the Woodland Heights district of Richmond, Virginia.



Kathryn Harvey, 39, was the co-owner of a popular local toy shop called "World of Mirth" in the Carytown district of Richmond, and the half-sister of actor Steven Culp. Bryan Harvey, 49, was an indie musician of note, a former member of House of Freaks, a two-man college rock band in Richmond. Their daughters Stella and Ruby were 9 and 4, respectively. Bryan and Kathryn died of blunt-force trauma to the head, Stella of smoke inhalation and blunt-force trauma to the head, and Ruby of stab wounds to her back, one of which punctured her lung.[6]

That didn't make the statistics.

Criminals will follow the path of least resistance. If they know a firearm is present in a home and the owner is willing to use it, chances are they'll choose another home. Therein lies another benefit that doesn't make it into the statistics - the value of deterrence.

Did I mention that many people commit suicide every year with prescription or over-the-counter medications? That didn't make Panther's statistics. And for the record, it's probably a much more pleasant way to go - if you're thinking about that sort of thing. It's certainly a lot less messy.

There are countless victims of crime. There are very few properly prepared to deal with it. We all have rights in terms of the choices we make to prepare for the unthinkable. How it all shakes out may not make for pretty public health statistics. But it does create options for citizens in a free society.

Bill
(Wearing his professional metrician and statistician hat)

[MikeK]

So if you look at the entire population and take the accidental firearm deaths for children (0-17), the fact is that there is far less than one in a million chance of a child dying from a firearm accident. AGAIN, one is one too many, but statistically firearms aren't the big killer of our children.

That's very true with the total sample, but the odds increase for those who have unsecured guns around kids.
It's a balancing act between accessibly and peace of mind.

[Van Canna]

Fact: 60% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they knew the victim was armed. 40% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they 68thought the victim might be armed.

Fact: Felons report that they avoid entering houses where people are at home because they fear being shot.69
70

Fact: 59% of the burglaries in Britain, which has tough gun control laws, are “hot burglaries” which are burglaries committed while the home is occupied by the owner/renter. By contrast, the U.S., with more lenient gun control laws, has a “hot burglary” rate of only 13%.71

Fact: Washington D.C. has essentially banned gun ownership since 1976and has a murder rate of 56.9 per 100,000. Across the river in Arlington, Virginia, gun ownership is less restricted. There, the murder rate is just 1.6 per 100,000, less than three percent of the Washington, D.C. rate.72

73Fact: 26% of all retail businesses report keeping a gun on the premises for crime control.

Fact: In 1982, Kennesaw, GA passed a law requiring heads of households to keep at least one firearm in the house. The residential burglary rate dropped 89% the following year.74

[Van Canna]

Another fact hoplophobes continue to miss is that 'stats' re chances of anything really happening…is not really what drives many gun owners to keep and bear guns.

The largest percentage of gun owners were introduced to guns by parents, friends, and in particular their military service, something the hoplophobes go to great lengths to avoid.

So a great percentage of owners are collectors, and obtain a license to carry for convenience not necessarily to carry as many do not even as they can. They are not obsessed with the possibility of great bodily harm as hoplophobes are want to argue every chance they get.

And Hoplophobes are great hypocrites since if they were in great danger [rape-robbery-ass kicking by multiple opponents] and you happened to walk by armed with a gun, and did not pull it to help them…they would hate you forever.

[Van Canna]

Myth: Private ownership of guns is not effective in preventing crime

Fact: Every year, people in the United States use a gun to defend themselves against criminals an estimated 2,500,000 times – more than 6,500 people a day, or once every 13 seconds.112 Of these instances, 15.6% of the people using a firearm defensively stated that they "almost certainly" saved their lives by doing so.

Firearms are used 60 times more often to protect lives than to take lives.

Fact: In 83.5% (2,087,500) of these successful gun defenses, the attacker either threatened or used force first, proving that guns are very well suited for self-defense.

Fact: Of the 2,500,000 times citizens use guns to defend themselves, 92% merely brandish their gun or fire a warning shot to scare off their attackers.

Fact: Less than 8% of the time does a citizen wound his or her attacker, and in less than one in a thousand instances is the attacker killed.113

Fact: For every accidental death, suicide, or homicide with a firearm, 10 lives are saved through defensive use.

114Fact: When using guns in self-defense:
• 83% of robbery victims were not injured.
• 88% of assault victims were not hurt.
• 76% of all self-defense use of guns never involve firing a single shot.

Fact: After the implementation of Canada's 1977 gun controls prohibiting handgun possession for protection, the “breaking and entering” crime rate rose 25%, surpassing the American rate.115

Canada in particular is the hotbed of home invasions....

The father of an excellent Uechi practitioner was killed in a home invasion years back by thugs who invaded his home, took away his baseball bat he tried to defend himself with....and beat him to death.

[Van Canna]

Myth: You are more likely to be injured or killed using a gun for self-defense

Fact: You are far more likely to survive a violent assault if you defend yourself with a gun. In episodes where a robbery victim was injured, the injury/defense rates were:119
Resisting with a gun 6%
Did nothing at all 25%
Resisted with a knife 40%
Non-violent resistance 45%

Myth: Guns are not effective in preventing crime against women

Fact: Of the 2,500,000 annual self-defense cases using guns, more than 7.7% (192,500) are by women defending themselves against sexual abuse.

Fact: When a woman was armed with a gun or knife, only 3% of rape attacks are completed, compared to 32% when unarmed.120

Fact: The probability of serious injury from an attack is 2.5 times greater for women offering no resistance than for women resisting with a gun.

Men also benefit from using a gun, but the benefits are smaller at 1.4 times more likely to receive a serious injury.121

Fact: 28.5% of women have a gun in the house.122
Fact: 41.7% of women either own or have rapid access to guns.123

Fact: In 1966, the city of Orlando responded to a wave of sexual assaults by offering firearms training classes to women. Rapes dropped by nearly 90% the following year.

[Van Canna]

Fact: Firearm availability appears to be particularly useful in avoiding rape. Australia and the United Kingdom virtually banned handgun ownership.

During the same period handgun ownership in the United States steadily rose. Yet the rate of rape decreased in the United States, and skyrocketed in the other countries.

Fact: More Americans believe having a gun in the home makes them safer. This belief grows every year the survey is taken.124

Fact: Arthur Kellerman, a researcher whose work is often cited by gun control groups said “If you've got to resist, you're chances of being hurt are less the more lethal your weapon.

If that were my wife, would I want her to have a .38 Special in her hand? Yeah