Kanei Uechi Kyohan on Ebay

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Kanei Uechi Kyohan on Ebay

Postby Glenn » Sun May 17, 2015 1:41 am

These still appear on Ebay from time to time, and the asking price keeps going up. Here is one signed by Kanei Uechi and Patrick McCarthy, with an asking price of $5000.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Uechi-Ryu-Karat ... 1647600177

Looks like if I am ever to acquire a copy I will have to sell my house!
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Re: Kanei Uechi Kyohan on Ebay

Postby Bill Glasheen » Mon May 18, 2015 5:07 pm

I think I paid $35 for mine - brand new.

I hate that this book is getting to be so valuable. Now I'm afraid to touch it. This shouldn't be.
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Re: Kanei Uechi Kyohan on Ebay

Postby Van Canna » Mon May 18, 2015 9:37 pm

Yeah, but can you guys read it?
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Re: Kanei Uechi Kyohan on Ebay

Postby Bill Glasheen » Tue May 19, 2015 2:26 pm

First... Like Playboy magazine, most people don't buy it to read the articles. :-P But seriously... The massively large B&W photographs in that book are classic. I suppose at some point someone will scan then all and they'll make their way to the Internet, but...

As for the half of the book that is essentially Takamiyagi's writing, I've learned just enough Japanese to read what I want to read when I need to read it. There are several working translations out there of this part of the book. I'm not sure if any of them will ever get published.

Good point though.

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Re: Kanei Uechi Kyohan on Ebay

Postby Van Canna » Tue May 19, 2015 4:35 pm

True...certainly a classic.
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Re: Kanei Uechi Kyohan on Ebay

Postby Seizan » Wed May 20, 2015 6:57 am

In view of its increasing rarity, what would you consider to be a reasonable price for a Kyohon in good condition?

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Re: Kanei Uechi Kyohan on Ebay

Postby Bill Glasheen » Wed May 20, 2015 7:42 pm

Emphasis in red is my own.
Seizan wrote:In view of its increasing rarity, what would you consider to be a reasonable price for a Kyohon in good condition?

Seizan

Therein lies the rub. Unfortunately the binding for this wonderful piece of work was god-awful. Mine split the day I opened the book. I treated it with kid gloves from that point forward. There is also the lineage chart and the cardboard cover - both of which would be considered part of "the package".

If it's in mint condition (never opened), it's probably worth $10,000 or more. One in decent condition without a split binding is probably worth the $1K to $3K that people are asking. Any book with pages falling out (I've seen them) or with the binding "repaired" is probably worth < $1K, but would be valuable for people who actually want to look at the thing. I would certainly pay a few hundred for a book in pieces with all the pages still there.

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Re: Kanei Uechi Kyohan on Ebay

Postby Glenn » Wed May 20, 2015 8:43 pm

Seizan wrote:In view of its increasing rarity, what would you consider to be a reasonable price for a Kyohon in good condition?


Realistically, reasonable is whatever people are willing to pay. The basic Smithian Economics principle of supply-and-demand prescribes that something that is rare will command a high value if there is demand for it. According to some of these listings, there were only 2000 Kanei Uechi Kyohan printed. Regardless of how many were actually printed almost 40 years ago, there is a fixed supply (with only a tiny fraction of these actually available for sale at any given time), yet the Uechi Ryu (and related) community has likely increased exponentially since then so it stands to reason the demand has also gone up considerably.

The $5000 listing above did not sell. I notice there is another listed for $2500:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1977-Uechi-Ryu- ... 1960418260

Here is a $2400 listing that ended because the item is no longer available, no clue if it actually sold for that:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kanei-Uechi-Kar ... 1727104765

While there is some logic to economic principles, people do some crazy stuff on Ebay...one seller may list an item for $5 and another may list the same thing described in the same condition for $500. I have seen sellers ask over $200 for a used item that is still easily available new for less than $100. Some of it is sellers who have no clue what the item is worth and do not want to spend the time researching it before they try to make a quick sale; some of it is sellers who know they are asking too much but are trying to catch off guard those impulse buyers who also are too lazy to research the value of what they buy.

Ebay has actually been a blessing and a curse for collectors. On the one hand there are a lot of listings for just about anything, making it easy for a buyer to find anything wanted. In some ways it has taken any challenge out of collecting, and for some collectors also removed the 'thrill of the hunt' in collecting. For sellers, this glut has also tended to drive down prices on a lot of items over the years. That is the primary reason I gave up selling on Ebay about 10 years ago. Back when it was just individuals selling on Ebay a seller could make a decent second (or in the case of one of my cousins, even first) income on it, but when businesses started linking all of their inventory to Ebay "stores" the heyday of selling on it ended for the small-scale seller. On the other hand, for rare items Ebay has made more people more aware of how valuable some of that junk from their grandparents attic that used to be given away in yard sales can be, making it harder for collectors to luck into a rare find at a great price.

So what is reasonable for a Kanei Uechi Kyohan? I have no clue...unless you have one you would sell to me, then I think reasonable is about $100! :D
Last edited by Glenn on Wed May 20, 2015 9:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Kanei Uechi Kyohan on Ebay

Postby Seizan » Wed May 20, 2015 9:06 pm

This would be “good” to “very good” condition.

Original box has a few minor marks. Tight binding, pages have no creasing, marks, or fingerprints. Original folder containing names and masters of all Okinawan Karate and Kobudo organizations at the time of publication is with the book. Spine’s cover is slightly faded, gold print still visible. Not much “used”, opened only a few times and treated carefully. To protect it from sunlight (destroyer of books) and dust it’s been stored in a black cloth bag with drawstring since purchase. Bag is a bit faded...

Autographed by the three main authors – Takamiyagi Shigeru, Higa Toshio, and Higa Katsuyoshi. Together they wrote about 90% of this book, Takamiyagi Sensei being the major researcher and actually writing the bulk of it. Uechi Kanei Sensei wrote none of it, though he reviewed and approved. The little that directly bears his name in the book was dictated.

Also autographed by Toyama Seiko Sensei.

We own two; the other is more valued by us for personal reasons and we decided to let this one go.

The copyrights were granted to Uechi Kanei Sensei after the book was published, giving rise to the myth that this is “his book”. They are perpetually owned (I assume they are renewed periodically) by the Uechi Family now.

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Re: Kanei Uechi Kyohan on Ebay

Postby Glenn » Wed May 20, 2015 9:28 pm

Seizan,

Are there any reliable and knowledgeable appraisers or auction houses in Okinawa (or elsewhere in Japan)? They may be a good place to start on trying to determine a reasonable value. Selling it through a professional auctioneer might help get a price you want as well, although some would be lost via their commission.

Interesting details on the history of the book, thank you for that.
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Re: Kanei Uechi Kyohan on Ebay

Postby Seizan » Wed May 20, 2015 9:50 pm

Hi Glenn,

Good idea but the appraisal fee plus commission would have to be tacked onto the final sales amount.

In bookstores here, I have seen this go in generally fair to marginally poor condition, $1200 to $1500, with mars, bumps and bruises, annotations in the margins, pencil marks, dog-ears, no box or folder, bent covers, and the like. Better condition = higher price; add pertinent autographs and the cost can skyrocket (esp. if the person is deceased).

This book will not be reprinted.

I prefer someone in the UechiRyu community obtain this. I don't like letting my "children" go to the hands of strangers...

I believe $3000 is a fair asking price. In ten years this will seem slight.

If anyone feels serious enough to consider buying it and need to see photos, write me and I'll send:

breyette(at)gray.plala.or.jp

(New e-mail address)

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Re: Kanei Uechi Kyohan on Ebay

Postby f.Channell » Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:43 am

To the best of my knowledge copyrights do not need to be reapplied for anymore. This may differ with different countries. You can copyright your book by sending a manuscript to yourself for example. I just put the copyright symbol in my book when I sent it off to the printer. A copyright would do no good really if you don't plan on reprinting the material, other than trying to stop someone else from doing it. Even this takes money to enforce.

Not a day goes by on Facebook when you don't see a Uechi video posted that is probably a copyright infringement. All in all good writers write books so people can read them and draw information from them. This book could be made profitable to the family by translating it in multiple languages and reprinting it in both book and e-book form. It probably wouldn't hurt the original copies value much at all either.

I thought long and hard before making a kindle version of my book available, knowing it might get pirated, but in the long run I wrote it to be read and I imagine perhaps Takimiyagi and Uechi sensei felt the same.
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Re: Kanei Uechi Kyohan on Ebay

Postby Seizan » Tue Jun 02, 2015 7:07 am

Hello Fred,

Good points. I am unsure of how one might legally (or otherwise) circumvent the copyright laws in Japan, but the rights to the book and its fine photos are with the Uechi Family.

Rather than speculate on it, one might write to the Uechi Family or a senior representative, and ask directly if we will or won't see a reissue, and if not, why. I prefer not to second-guess.

Meanwhile, the existing originals are steadily becoming less available. One day soon enough, we might find one only in the Rare Books Section of some library or elite bookshop.

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Re: Kanei Uechi Kyohan on Ebay

Postby f.Channell » Tue Jun 02, 2015 11:26 am

The only comparable situation I can think of is the Canon of Judo by Mifune, the last 10th dan promoted by Judo's founder. It was translated and rewritten some 40 years after his death. This book was rare also. I am sure the originals still are. Some problems with the original translation from what I have read. If the Uechi book is a blend of Chinese, Hogen and Japanese like I have read, it would be even harder to translate. From what I understand Hogen is almost lost as a language? I'm sure Seizan knows better than me.

Here is the Canon of Judo in the public domain. You might notice the book is covered in gi cloth. How cool is that?
https://archive.org/details/pdfy-vaVjryYeqQikyrwh
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Re: Kanei Uechi Kyohan on Ebay

Postby Shinkawa » Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:25 pm

I own the Kyohon in a good condition and think about selling it. If someone is interested, mail me: klaus@canpolat.eu.
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