Why Nobody will Invade Switzerland

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Why Nobody will Invade Switzerland

Postby Bill Glasheen » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:30 pm

Historically one big reason for the development of martial arts was freedom from tyranny. More often than not it was the tyranny of highway bandits and home invaders. But it also was freedom from the tyranny of governments and invaders. Below is a compelling video that all martial artists should watch. It's a paradigm shift away from the gun control debates happening on our shores.

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..... Why No One Invades Switzerland
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Re: Why Nobody will Invade Switzerland

Postby Glenn » Wed Oct 14, 2015 4:02 pm

That video glosses over some things, for example in the introduction she says "basic military training is required for young men, and afterwards they are required to keep their weapon at home" but that is because they are considered to be active militia and those weapons are their service weapons. Newsflash, American service men and women are required to keep service weapons at home as well. However in Switzerland, while they are required to keep their service weapons at home, they are not allowed to keep any military-issued ammunition for those weapons at home. In the event of an invasion or other crisis, ammunition would be distributed to them by the government.

After their military service is over they do have the option to apply for a permit to keep a modified, non-military version of the weapon, but many turn theirs in and personal gun ownership is in only around 30% of Swiss households (compared to almost 45% in the U.S). That number she gives of "over 500,000" Sig 550s in Swiss homes is for active militia, the number of personal guns is lower. That video also does not mention that the per capita gun ownership rate in Switzerland is lower than in Germany, France, Austria, and others, so Switzerland does not even stand out in Europe in that respect.

The bottom line though is that the NRA, Republican Party, Libertarian Party, and so forth would never agree to the Swiss model of required military service, required training, and required permit in order to own a personal weapon because that is the gun control they oppose, so this is all a mute point in the U.S. gun-ownership debates.
Last edited by Glenn on Wed Oct 14, 2015 4:30 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Why Nobody will Invade Switzerland

Postby Glenn » Wed Oct 14, 2015 4:12 pm

Here is what is required to get to keep a gun at the end of military service or to buy a gun, in Switzerland:

- weapon acquisition permit
- valid official identification
- residence address
- criminal record copy not older than 3 months

Sounds a lot like what Republicans are trying to require here to vote, but are refusing to even discuss for gun ownership. And if you want to transfer a weapon or essential weapon component to someone else, you need a written contract that includes:

- family name, first name, birth date, residence address and signature of the person who sells the weapon or essential weapon component
- family name, first name, birth date, residence address and signature of the person who purchases the weapon or an essential weapon component
- kind of weapon, manufacturer or producer, label, caliber, weapon number, and date and place of transfer
- type and number of official identification of the person who acquires the weapon or the essential weapon component
- an indication of the processing of personal data in connection with the contract in accordance with the privacy policy of the Federation or the cantons, if firearms are transmitted

Yeah, the Swiss model would never fly here. As an anti-party, independent moderate I can see potential in the Swiss model, but I, like the plurality of Americans, have no representation and thus no say in the matter, so what do I know. :roll:
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Re: Why Nobody will Invade Switzerland

Postby Bill Glasheen » Thu Oct 15, 2015 4:51 pm

We're not talking about handguns, Glenn. These are military-grade weapons. We shouldn't be surprised there's a bit of regulation involved in owning them and buying/selling them. That said, they're in virtually all homes.

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Re: Why Nobody will Invade Switzerland

Postby Glenn » Fri Oct 16, 2015 4:43 pm

Those regulations apply to all firearms, Bill, from the Sig 500 to the smallest handguns. The Sig 550s are in the homes of active militia (roughly 20-30 year olds), and a few who apply to keep a non-military version of them after their active service ends. According to the video you posted, there are roughly 500,000 Sig 550s in Swiss households. As of 2008 there were 3,362,073 households in Switzerland. If we assume that those 500,000 Sig 550s are divided up so that there is no more than one per any household (probably not an accurate assumption), then Sig 550s are in no more than 15% of households...hardly "virtually all homes."

So what is it like to fire one of these Sig 550s? From the video it does not appear to have much kick. It's 5.56 mm ammo is virtually the same as the .223 caliber, which in projectile size is not much different from the .22 caliber rifle I own, but the Sig 550 has a considerably higher muzzle velocity given its effective range of 400 m (my .22 would struggle to be effective at 100 m). On the other hand I also imagine it is better designed to reduce recoil than an old .22 rifle handed down from my grandfather.
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Re: Why Nobody will Invade Switzerland

Postby Bill Glasheen » Sun Oct 18, 2015 12:22 am

Wikipedia wrote:In some 2001 statistics, it is noted that there are about 420,000 assault rifles (fully automatic, or "selective fire") stored at private homes, mostly SIG SG 550 models. Additionally, there are some 320,000 semi-auto rifles and military pistols exempted from military service in private possession, all selective-fire weapons having been converted to semi-automatic operation only. In addition, there are several hundred thousand other semi-automatic small arms classified as carbines. The total number of firearms in private homes is estimated minimally at 1.2 million to 3 million.
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Re: Why Nobody will Invade Switzerland

Postby Bill Glasheen » Sun Oct 18, 2015 12:26 am

Snopes wrote:Switzerland has one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world, with 45.7 guns per 100 residents (ranking below only the United States, Serbia, and Yemen in this measurement).
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Re: Why Nobody will Invade Switzerland

Postby Van Canna » Sun Oct 18, 2015 3:09 am

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Re: Why Nobody will Invade Switzerland

Postby Van Canna » Sun Oct 18, 2015 3:22 am

https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/ ... ed_into_a/


Concealed carry licenses are EXTREMELY hard to get. You have to prove that your life or the life of other people is in danger, or that you need a gun for your job. After getting the permit you have to pass a written and practical examination, the permit is valid for 5 years.
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Re: Why Nobody will Invade Switzerland

Postby Bill Glasheen » Mon Oct 19, 2015 9:25 pm

Thanks for weighing in, Van. And long time no chat with! Miss you, my friend.

You included this article in one of your posts above.

..... The Swiss Difference: A Gun Culture That Works

I appreciate that article. It's very well done.

What I find interesting is that there are battles going on in some sources, like Wikipedia. Articles get changed back and forth, and you wonder why. It appears that pro and anti gun extremists are trying to shape the message. The Time Magazine article seems to agree with the preponderance of sources that I've looked at. It also explains the difference between ownership of military firearms vs. all firearms, ownership of personal ammunition vs. military firearm ammunition, etc. It's also worth mentioning that concealed carry isn't needed in a culture when you have open carry.

Image

Nobody bats an eye to this.

I'm familiar with much of this because my advisor in graduate school was born in Switzerland and got his MD there. He came to the U.S., got his PhD, and ultimately became chairman of my biomedical engineering department. He was quite the athlete. When I could get a bottle of wine in him, he'd talk about cutting classes in medical school so he could ski the Swiss Alps. All this was no big deal to him. His wife was French, and remembered Germany's occupation of her country. They were both pro Reagan when many in academia were quite liberal. Over dinner my advisor's wife explained how they remembered Nazi Germany's occupation, and how important they felt national security was.

Anyhow... Memories! 8)

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Re: Why Nobody will Invade Switzerland

Postby Glenn » Mon Oct 19, 2015 9:51 pm

Bill Glasheen wrote:
Wikipedia wrote:In some 2001 statistics, it is noted that there are about 420,000 assault rifles (fully automatic, or "selective fire") stored at private homes, mostly SIG SG 550 models. Additionally, there are some 320,000 semi-auto rifles and military pistols exempted from military service in private possession, all selective-fire weapons having been converted to semi-automatic operation only. In addition, there are several hundred thousand other semi-automatic small arms classified as carbines. The total number of firearms in private homes is estimated minimally at 1.2 million to 3 million.


Uh huh, and you forgot to include the part where Wikipedia says "citation needed" for that paragraph. Equally troubling to there not being a citation is the extreme range for a total number of firears in that quote, with the high end being 2.5X the low end! Not exactly confidence inspiring. But to your point, yes, the total number of firearms in Switzerland is likely to be some number higher than just the 500,000 Sig 550s we were originally talking about.

Bill Glasheen wrote:
Snopes wrote:Switzerland has one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world, with 45.7 guns per 100 residents (ranking below only the United States, Serbia, and Yemen in this measurement).


Check the math Bill. While the Wikipedia quote you use is not clear about whether that 1.2-3 million estimate for total firearms is from 2001 or more recent, we will assume it is for 2001. In 2001 the population of Switzerland is estimated to have been 7.23 million, thus the range of per capita rates would be 16.6-41.5 per 100. If the total number of firearms in your quote is meant to be more current, then the rate goes down. The most recent population estimate for Switzerland is 8.08 million in 2013, resulting in a range of total firearms per capita of 14.9-37.1 per 100. Either way, your two quotes are not agreeing with each other.

Your Snopes quote also contradicts the paragraph below the one you quoted from Wikipedia, this second Wikipedia paragraph being the one I incorporated earlier...and unlike the Wikipedia quote you chose to use, this second one actually references published sources, from Switzerland nonetheless:

In 2005 over 10% of households contained handguns, compared to 18% of U.S. households that contained handguns. In 2005 almost 29% of households in Switzerland contained firearms of some kind, compared to almost 43% in the US.[5] According to current estimations of guns per 100 residents is about 25,[6] which is, for example, lower than Germany, France, or Austria.


So it seems that according to the Swiss, the per household rate is around 29 per 100 and the per capita rate is around 25 per 100, or significantly lower than the rate you got from Snopes but right in the middle of the the range I calculated above using the numbers from your Wikipedia quote.
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Re: Why Nobody will Invade Switzerland

Postby Van Canna » Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:54 am

Hi Bill,

Thanks, I feel the same, we have had some good times on these forums.

I love Switzerland...I spent some of very finest vacations in the city of Lugano of the Italian Canton.

A paradise on earth. Beauty all around, nice people, elegance, well mannered persons everywhere, great food, great shopping...what a place.Image
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