Once again, my friend Mike Murphy strikes at the heart of the matter by asking "why do we have to fight to get the respect of the Okinawans"? This, he asks in sincerity, not cowardice! Indeed, I have seen Mike move and with his physical size, I can assure you: HE IS ONE TOUGH GUY!!
Mike is right. There are other ways to garner respect form the Okinawans. I call them the "Big 3": 1.) Awesome, strong, right-on-the-money kata and techniques. (And as Van-sensei says, I am not talking about lining up for the Okinawans to be used as human Makiwara!)
2.) Hard-as-nails conditioning. You know that the average 4th or 5th dan on Okinawa has been engaged in hard practice for 15 some odd years. THEY WILL WANT TO CONDITION HARD when we/they visit. We HAVE to be able to meet them on their level.
3.) Free fighting. Anyone who has ever visited Okinawa has fallen victim to A.) The "hour long" body conditioning class, and/or B.)The never-ending congo line of sparring partners.
In one trip to Okinawa, class ended with the shodans lining up in front of me for sparring practice. When I had dispatched them, it was the nidans' turn. As I tired, they brought on the sandans. By the time the yondan and godans got warmed up, I was a lump of raw hamburg in a sopping wet gi! I have even heard stories of "ringers" being called in when foreigners visit to bolster the numbers and fire power at a dojo for that particular evening! When the foreigners disappear, everyone goes back to business as usual, and Okinawan "guests" return to their respective dojo!
The bottom line is this: THE OKINAWANS WILL NOT RESPECT US ANYWHERE BUT ON THE FLOOR. We have to meet them on every level, and that will include in international competition too.
By the sheer fact that the Okinawans DO NOT allow kata to be performed at their tournaments, one can deduce where they feel the importance of these exercises to fall on their priority lists! WE MUST FIGHT!
Beyond this, our absence in comeptition in recent years has led the Okinawans to believe that we could not field a team of talented karateka EVEN IF WE TRIED!
Time to get the respect back AND re-establish relationships. We can do this by making the trips others have spoken of and by supporting inter-association events at which invited Okinawan guests are present.
Once this is accomplished, I believe, we can sit down as EQUALS and hash out where to go with the future of Uechi-ryu.
Respecfully,
Gary
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Gary J. Khoury
http://www.uechi-ryu.com/khoury
Why Fight?
Moderator: Available
Why Fight?
Yeah , like Oshiro beating on Gary At Nakahodo sensei's dojo on a nightly basis in sparring matches and expecting him to be back for more the next day just to mold him into a "real budo-ka"
And The pitting of Americans against one another in the Okinawan tournaments so as to eliminate each other and reduce the chances Of American victory in the finals etc.
What we are in denial of is that there are atavistic regressive forces at work on the island and I am not saying they are all bad ; after all it is their game ; that is how it should be and is , and let the damn foreigners earn the respect of the Okinawan Young guns !
How many of us really train along the "big three" components of the system as outlined by Gary ! Not many ; look at some classes and you want to laugh ! Conditioning is something to get over with in 10 minutes if you are lucky ; sparring is almost non existent in some dojos ; katas are performed without intensity ! We spend countless time on prearranged kumite and we are 'late for an appointment' when some remain after the workout for sparring sessions ! The old guard of Mattson sensei 's dojo on Columbus avenue used to blow holes into the walls much to the chagrin of Mattson sensei !
The message is " shake hands with the devil " !!
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Van Canna
And The pitting of Americans against one another in the Okinawan tournaments so as to eliminate each other and reduce the chances Of American victory in the finals etc.
What we are in denial of is that there are atavistic regressive forces at work on the island and I am not saying they are all bad ; after all it is their game ; that is how it should be and is , and let the damn foreigners earn the respect of the Okinawan Young guns !
How many of us really train along the "big three" components of the system as outlined by Gary ! Not many ; look at some classes and you want to laugh ! Conditioning is something to get over with in 10 minutes if you are lucky ; sparring is almost non existent in some dojos ; katas are performed without intensity ! We spend countless time on prearranged kumite and we are 'late for an appointment' when some remain after the workout for sparring sessions ! The old guard of Mattson sensei 's dojo on Columbus avenue used to blow holes into the walls much to the chagrin of Mattson sensei !
The message is " shake hands with the devil " !!
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Van Canna
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mikemurphy
- Posts: 989
- Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
- Contact:
Why Fight?
Gary-san,
For someone who has not had the priviledge of travelling to Okinawa, your words are a real eye-opener. I did not know that they treated people in such a manner. For what reason other than ego I cannot imagine. What a shame. However, I do agree with your three points. It is something to consider in the dojo and the upcoming workouts.
Thanks for the info...
Mike
For someone who has not had the priviledge of travelling to Okinawa, your words are a real eye-opener. I did not know that they treated people in such a manner. For what reason other than ego I cannot imagine. What a shame. However, I do agree with your three points. It is something to consider in the dojo and the upcoming workouts.
Thanks for the info...
Mike
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Drew Doolin
- Posts: 92
- Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: Washington DC
Why Fight?
From out of the woodwork (actually the jungles of Thailand)[Ed. Wait a minute, you have email access in the JUNGLE???] Ok, ok, from out of the suburban area of Thailand... I come to agree with Gary and Van. (You all would have to tell me, since I have never studied in the US, but are some folks afraid of legal action from a SANCHIN KITAE done with vigar??) I saw some Americans fight in the OKI tourney at the Naha Budokan two years ago and saw their fights end due to a good shot to the mid-section. Yikes! Also, Gary, about your comment about kata at OKI tourneys, makes you wonder about what their focus is on at this time in their history? Has it lost it's balance? Has it all gone to sport fighting exclusively or has their kata abilities dwindled? Makes ya wanna go "HUMM?"
No doubt in my mind that respect, not only on Okinawa but in the states as well, comes from your abilities on the floor. This aint' dancing folks. If you handle yourself with focus, power, and respect when you put on the Ghi, you will earn the respect of others. I have to tell you also, that there are A LOT of karate tourists that come over here for their 2 minute whirlwind dojo visit and get their photo op and run. This doesn't help to garner any respect. Now, I know, and I have publicly said this before, that I am fortunate to be here on the Governments dime and soak all this in, others can't afford the trips, I know; but if we don't talk frankly about perceptions here you may never know what others are thinking. Ok, back to the jungle, urh, uh, the hotel room.
D2
No doubt in my mind that respect, not only on Okinawa but in the states as well, comes from your abilities on the floor. This aint' dancing folks. If you handle yourself with focus, power, and respect when you put on the Ghi, you will earn the respect of others. I have to tell you also, that there are A LOT of karate tourists that come over here for their 2 minute whirlwind dojo visit and get their photo op and run. This doesn't help to garner any respect. Now, I know, and I have publicly said this before, that I am fortunate to be here on the Governments dime and soak all this in, others can't afford the trips, I know; but if we don't talk frankly about perceptions here you may never know what others are thinking. Ok, back to the jungle, urh, uh, the hotel room.
D2
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Why Fight?
Man, this is as good as the trash talk before an in-state football game. We have one thing missing - Jimmy and/or Art in the background beating on the tom toms.
But seriously folks....I like it. For the most part, very positive and inspiring dialogue. I'm a capitalist and a Darwinist at heart. I've always felt that a little competition is a very good thing for everyone.
And it is also refreshing to see things stated publically that many have known about and grumbled about for years: sanchin-kitae hazing of the gaijin by hypocrites who will not take their own gis off, pitting of "foreigners" against each other at Oki tournaments, photo-op dojo visits by Americans and others, etc. Time to call everyone at their games and get down to what is important and what we all came to the dojo for in the first place.
-- Bill
But seriously folks....I like it. For the most part, very positive and inspiring dialogue. I'm a capitalist and a Darwinist at heart. I've always felt that a little competition is a very good thing for everyone.
And it is also refreshing to see things stated publically that many have known about and grumbled about for years: sanchin-kitae hazing of the gaijin by hypocrites who will not take their own gis off, pitting of "foreigners" against each other at Oki tournaments, photo-op dojo visits by Americans and others, etc. Time to call everyone at their games and get down to what is important and what we all came to the dojo for in the first place.
-- Bill
Why Fight?
You're the best, Bill!
And God Bless GEM, if for nothing else than providing us with these forums so we can get to the heart of things!
No more guessing for you guppies and small fries. And you lurkers? Go back to your "sensei's" and ask them what this is all about!
When they tell you that we're all "nuts" and that none of us know what the hell we're talking about, ask him or her how s/he has been able to remain "normal" while the rest of the Uechi world is going insane!
Maybe it's his/her amazing chi! Er, um, I guess we'll discuss that on another thread!
Keep training!
Gary
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Gary J. Khoury
http://www.uechi-ryu.com/khoury
And God Bless GEM, if for nothing else than providing us with these forums so we can get to the heart of things!
No more guessing for you guppies and small fries. And you lurkers? Go back to your "sensei's" and ask them what this is all about!
When they tell you that we're all "nuts" and that none of us know what the hell we're talking about, ask him or her how s/he has been able to remain "normal" while the rest of the Uechi world is going insane!
Maybe it's his/her amazing chi! Er, um, I guess we'll discuss that on another thread!
Keep training!
Gary
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Gary J. Khoury
http://www.uechi-ryu.com/khoury
Why Fight?
JD writes:
"This is good to get this out in the open. If the snow flakes organize, we may be able to direct the avalanche."
And, THAT, my friends, is exactly my point!
What is an association? Like a dojo it is a collection of individuals working together for the same or similar ends.
And like a dojo, though the 4 walls may still exist, what do you really have without the individuals?! NOTHING!!
If we can "band together" --and not necessarily on anything except our resolve to peacefully coexist-- HOW ELSE could anyone respond except, "OK"?!
Even those who do not necessarily LOVE GEM have associated themselves with him because of his open arms, shut-up-and-train philosophy. OKK/ShoHei practitioners from around the world are sick and tired of the "cold war"/closed door policy and are defecting to Uechi-ryu.
Keep your style names, keep your philosophy, but for THE LOVE OF GOD let's cut the BS so that we can continue to learn from each other, our teachers, the Okinawans AND our past!
In the meantime,
KEEP TRAINING!
Gary
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Gary J. Khoury
http://www.uechi-ryu.com/khoury
"This is good to get this out in the open. If the snow flakes organize, we may be able to direct the avalanche."
And, THAT, my friends, is exactly my point!
What is an association? Like a dojo it is a collection of individuals working together for the same or similar ends.
And like a dojo, though the 4 walls may still exist, what do you really have without the individuals?! NOTHING!!
If we can "band together" --and not necessarily on anything except our resolve to peacefully coexist-- HOW ELSE could anyone respond except, "OK"?!
Even those who do not necessarily LOVE GEM have associated themselves with him because of his open arms, shut-up-and-train philosophy. OKK/ShoHei practitioners from around the world are sick and tired of the "cold war"/closed door policy and are defecting to Uechi-ryu.
Keep your style names, keep your philosophy, but for THE LOVE OF GOD let's cut the BS so that we can continue to learn from each other, our teachers, the Okinawans AND our past!
In the meantime,
KEEP TRAINING!
Gary
------------------
Gary J. Khoury
http://www.uechi-ryu.com/khoury
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Chris Long
- Posts: 18
- Joined: Mon Sep 21, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: Flagstaff, AZ
Why Fight?
Howdy folks -
Wow!! I just got back from a training stint in Okinawa, and saw nothing of what ya'll are talking about. I was welcomed in each of the dojos that I trained in (admittedly only 3 - though I worked out in each 4 or more times), and treated with much greater respect than I as a small-fry deserve. Almost nightly, I was taken out for "bureiko" (ask Glasheen-Sensei if the term confuses you - it is a regular part of my dojo, due to his influence). And within the dojo, I was trained in everything from sparring drills to intense kata practice (generally alone in front of a significant sensei - as all people tend to demonstrate kata within those dojo).
My Japanese is mediocre on an incredible day, but all the folks I worked with were gracious and patient. Secrets were not held, nor were target practice sessions held on my skinny body. I have to agree with the good doctor that any teacher worth his salt will train you once they see your intent. If you practice what they give you with a modicum of diligence, they will promptly single you out for more attention. Okinawan dojos are different from our own. Your time is not closely scheduled, and if desired, you can hang out in the back doing a whole lot of nothing. Sure, they want to see a bit of desire. What teacher doesn't? But if you show it, they take you into their dojo in a heartbeat.
As for tournement sparring, Gary-Sensei knows much more than I. I have only participated in dojo-kumite on the island. But I will say that within the dojo, there is an almost irristible urge to hang out with anyone that can speak english. Americans are relentless in this, and I find myself fighting it all the time when training there. I can't help but think that some of our pairing with Americans when on island is our own fault - and the Okinawans respond (at least in part) to our apparent preferences by grouping us together almost reflexively.
I was the only non-Okinawan at the recent test (Bill-Sensei - you now have another yondan to your credit. Arigato...), and obviously did not get paired with an American. But even on my sandan test, when I showed up with my assistant (also going for sandan) (not to mention the other 8 Americans at that test), we did not spar together (thank God - he is indomitable!!).
Maybe I'm lucky. Or maybe more of us should occaisionally train where our beloved style has its roots. Our collective fascination with the Chinese roots and related styles indicates an interest in this area. Perhaps we could give them another shot...
Chris Long
Wow!! I just got back from a training stint in Okinawa, and saw nothing of what ya'll are talking about. I was welcomed in each of the dojos that I trained in (admittedly only 3 - though I worked out in each 4 or more times), and treated with much greater respect than I as a small-fry deserve. Almost nightly, I was taken out for "bureiko" (ask Glasheen-Sensei if the term confuses you - it is a regular part of my dojo, due to his influence). And within the dojo, I was trained in everything from sparring drills to intense kata practice (generally alone in front of a significant sensei - as all people tend to demonstrate kata within those dojo).
My Japanese is mediocre on an incredible day, but all the folks I worked with were gracious and patient. Secrets were not held, nor were target practice sessions held on my skinny body. I have to agree with the good doctor that any teacher worth his salt will train you once they see your intent. If you practice what they give you with a modicum of diligence, they will promptly single you out for more attention. Okinawan dojos are different from our own. Your time is not closely scheduled, and if desired, you can hang out in the back doing a whole lot of nothing. Sure, they want to see a bit of desire. What teacher doesn't? But if you show it, they take you into their dojo in a heartbeat.
As for tournement sparring, Gary-Sensei knows much more than I. I have only participated in dojo-kumite on the island. But I will say that within the dojo, there is an almost irristible urge to hang out with anyone that can speak english. Americans are relentless in this, and I find myself fighting it all the time when training there. I can't help but think that some of our pairing with Americans when on island is our own fault - and the Okinawans respond (at least in part) to our apparent preferences by grouping us together almost reflexively.
I was the only non-Okinawan at the recent test (Bill-Sensei - you now have another yondan to your credit. Arigato...), and obviously did not get paired with an American. But even on my sandan test, when I showed up with my assistant (also going for sandan) (not to mention the other 8 Americans at that test), we did not spar together (thank God - he is indomitable!!).
Maybe I'm lucky. Or maybe more of us should occaisionally train where our beloved style has its roots. Our collective fascination with the Chinese roots and related styles indicates an interest in this area. Perhaps we could give them another shot...
Chris Long
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Why Fight?
To all
Ah....if only we could all be blessed with a roomful of Chris Longs. I would love to take credit for Chris (and when I'm in the mood to tweak the New Englanders, I just might). But in the end I feel that my talent lies in recongnizing the Chris Longs of the world and enabling their inevitable progress. In the words of Lao Tzu:
He is the true master of men who behaves as if he is their servant
Way to go, Chris. You make us all proud!
- Bill
Ah....if only we could all be blessed with a roomful of Chris Longs. I would love to take credit for Chris (and when I'm in the mood to tweak the New Englanders, I just might). But in the end I feel that my talent lies in recongnizing the Chris Longs of the world and enabling their inevitable progress. In the words of Lao Tzu:
He is the true master of men who behaves as if he is their servant
Way to go, Chris. You make us all proud!
- Bill
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Allen M.
Why Fight?
Congratulations on your promotion, Chris.
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Allen - [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> - <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]
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Allen - [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> - <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]
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gmattson
- Site Admin
- Posts: 6070
- Joined: Wed Sep 16, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: Lake Mary, Florida
- Contact:
Why Fight?
Chris:
Congratulations on your recent promotion. We are all proud of you and appreciate the good will you are promoting between the Okinawans and those of us who train outside of Okinawa.
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GEM
Congratulations on your recent promotion. We are all proud of you and appreciate the good will you are promoting between the Okinawans and those of us who train outside of Okinawa.
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GEM
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Chris Long
- Posts: 18
- Joined: Mon Sep 21, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: Flagstaff, AZ
Why Fight?
Hey folks -
You are all far too kind. I greatly appreciate the wise words, and thanks...
My good Doctor, you asked what dojos I worked out with. Obviously, I worked extensively in the Chatan Dojo, since Takamiyagi-Sensei is officially my teacher. But I also was given the opportunity to work in the Ageda Dojo (run by Machida-Sensei and his wife, both students of Takamiyagi-Sensei). The Ageda dojo is mostly attended by college students, who tended to wear me out on a regular basis. Additionally, the Okikukai put me up in their headquarters building (a GREAT location, with more amenities than my limited cooking skills could put to use), so I worked there with several groups of folks.
All in all, it was a great trip. 2 weeks is far too short a time - I think next time I will impose on them for a bit longer stay.
Thanks again for your kind words. I'll be signing off for the summer, as we go homeless until arriving in Haiti this August. Once there, I will again be bothering you all on the forums (since our school is the internet provider for the country!!)
Train hard, train often.
Chris Long
You are all far too kind. I greatly appreciate the wise words, and thanks...
My good Doctor, you asked what dojos I worked out with. Obviously, I worked extensively in the Chatan Dojo, since Takamiyagi-Sensei is officially my teacher. But I also was given the opportunity to work in the Ageda Dojo (run by Machida-Sensei and his wife, both students of Takamiyagi-Sensei). The Ageda dojo is mostly attended by college students, who tended to wear me out on a regular basis. Additionally, the Okikukai put me up in their headquarters building (a GREAT location, with more amenities than my limited cooking skills could put to use), so I worked there with several groups of folks.
All in all, it was a great trip. 2 weeks is far too short a time - I think next time I will impose on them for a bit longer stay.
Thanks again for your kind words. I'll be signing off for the summer, as we go homeless until arriving in Haiti this August. Once there, I will again be bothering you all on the forums (since our school is the internet provider for the country!!)
Train hard, train often.
Chris Long
Why Fight?
Lurking. Thinking. Fascinated.
Congratulations, Chris.
Michael
Congratulations, Chris.
Michael
