Sometime ago I asked for tips on training alone and I got some great help from it too.Since then I was lucky enough to meet with sensei John Jackson who teaches in a Nintaikan dojo.
I was taught in a Pangainoon dojo and so far there has been more similarities than differences.The one thing that troubles me is one of the differences is in the kata sanchin...the last place I expected to find ANY difference.
After the triple arm movements they piviot into a cat stance and then slide forward to do the wauke block.
I was taught to do a sanchin turn off the front foot and stand in place to do the wauke.
Im not asking who is correct but how many other versions are there between all the fractions of Uechi?If sanchin is the kihon kata why would there be more than one version?
Can anyone offer some insight?
Thanks in advance Neal
Sanchins?
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Gary Santaniello
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Sanchins?
I myself have never seen Sanchin Kata performed with any cat stances nor do i know where that "version" came from. If you really feel a need to know, i would suggest respectfully asking whomever is teaching it that way. I am sure that it is just a variation of choice by that instructor or dojo.
Sensei George Mattson wrote the book "Uechiryu Karate Do" which clearly discribes the system with pictures of Master Kanie Uechi performing each movement of the Sanchin Kata.
There are many schools now teaching uechiryu with different names and various organizations. Some have changed several things and some claim to be doing it the "old way". I would not be so concernd as you will see many "different" things after you have been around a while.
How do you perform your uechi katas in accordance to your association and are you comfortable and confident in your way of understanding and performing?
That is the only question i would be concerned with.
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Gary S.
Gary S
Sensei George Mattson wrote the book "Uechiryu Karate Do" which clearly discribes the system with pictures of Master Kanie Uechi performing each movement of the Sanchin Kata.
There are many schools now teaching uechiryu with different names and various organizations. Some have changed several things and some claim to be doing it the "old way". I would not be so concernd as you will see many "different" things after you have been around a while.
How do you perform your uechi katas in accordance to your association and are you comfortable and confident in your way of understanding and performing?
That is the only question i would be concerned with.
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Gary S.
Gary S
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Bill Glasheen
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- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Sanchins?
Nice comments, Gary.
I have a few I can add.
I think I understand what you are talking about. All I can say is that perhaps you (or those who are teaching) are taking what is really a transitional posture and giving it static status. There are other such points in the kata where a teacher may emphasize an intermediate position by freezing it - for instructional purpose only - to ensure that the students moves properly from position A to position B.
To speak specifically to this situation, the important thing to think about is what you are trying to accomplish between the double thrusts and the first wauke. Are you moving directly into the attack or are you sidestepping it? I was taught to do sidestepping turns with the thrusts, but move none-to-nose into the attacks with the blocks. These are two very different ways to do turns, and each has its own set of appications and appropriate usages. If you were to view master Uechi moving in sanchin on a VCR and you had the ability to freeze the image, you would probably be able to freeze it at a point where he is "sort of" in a cat stance. I once saw Narahiro Shinjo go through this motion with an even more distinct path through this posture. But as I said, this is merely a transitional posture. An instructor does have some license to tweak the teaching of this form if s/he wants the student to appreciate this transition. Maybe s/he wants to make the point that "all is in sanchin".
In general, there are several places in the form where creativity can creep in. The most obvious place is the way the blocks are done. Quite frankly the posture that many use to start the block (holding a teacup up front with the support arm) is one that I always thought Uechi Kanei created to help people learn the movement. That arm up front keeps the block from getting too close to the body. But others have siezed on this as an opportunity to teach the seichin/sanseiryu double-armed-block posture. And so what was once "training wheels" for the physically challenged is now an "official posture" for some in their sanchin. And....this is not necessarily a bad thing (even if I choose to avoid doing it).
The opening of the form is another opportunity to display a little creativity. Given that I have seen so many ways to open the form, I chose to add a little of my own trademark in my dojo. After spending a week with Takamiyagi at one of Mattson's camps, I have come to appreciate the "dynamic range" you can have in a kata (fast and slow, tense and relaxed, hard and soft, etc). Consequently I have used the dynamic tension in the beginning and my own understanding of breathing and cardiopulmonary physiology to add in a little dragon breathing in the opening. I also do this breathing as I squeeze my hands in the double thrusts. So far....Mattson sensei hasn't told me to stop. And....it makes perfect physiologic sense. And....I now have more in my sanchin.
And....god hasn't struck me down with lightning - yet.
This gets very confusing for the beginner student. And in the beginning, it is necessary to take a lot of things on faith before you truly appreciate them. This means a lot of sheer mimickry. But in the end we must apply the meaning of the movements in sanchin. You and I may have an identical understanding of what we are trying to accomplish in a move, but may choose to do it in slightly different ways. This is not bad; that's the art in martial arts.
-- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 06-14-99).]
I have a few I can add.
I think I understand what you are talking about. All I can say is that perhaps you (or those who are teaching) are taking what is really a transitional posture and giving it static status. There are other such points in the kata where a teacher may emphasize an intermediate position by freezing it - for instructional purpose only - to ensure that the students moves properly from position A to position B.
To speak specifically to this situation, the important thing to think about is what you are trying to accomplish between the double thrusts and the first wauke. Are you moving directly into the attack or are you sidestepping it? I was taught to do sidestepping turns with the thrusts, but move none-to-nose into the attacks with the blocks. These are two very different ways to do turns, and each has its own set of appications and appropriate usages. If you were to view master Uechi moving in sanchin on a VCR and you had the ability to freeze the image, you would probably be able to freeze it at a point where he is "sort of" in a cat stance. I once saw Narahiro Shinjo go through this motion with an even more distinct path through this posture. But as I said, this is merely a transitional posture. An instructor does have some license to tweak the teaching of this form if s/he wants the student to appreciate this transition. Maybe s/he wants to make the point that "all is in sanchin".
In general, there are several places in the form where creativity can creep in. The most obvious place is the way the blocks are done. Quite frankly the posture that many use to start the block (holding a teacup up front with the support arm) is one that I always thought Uechi Kanei created to help people learn the movement. That arm up front keeps the block from getting too close to the body. But others have siezed on this as an opportunity to teach the seichin/sanseiryu double-armed-block posture. And so what was once "training wheels" for the physically challenged is now an "official posture" for some in their sanchin. And....this is not necessarily a bad thing (even if I choose to avoid doing it).
The opening of the form is another opportunity to display a little creativity. Given that I have seen so many ways to open the form, I chose to add a little of my own trademark in my dojo. After spending a week with Takamiyagi at one of Mattson's camps, I have come to appreciate the "dynamic range" you can have in a kata (fast and slow, tense and relaxed, hard and soft, etc). Consequently I have used the dynamic tension in the beginning and my own understanding of breathing and cardiopulmonary physiology to add in a little dragon breathing in the opening. I also do this breathing as I squeeze my hands in the double thrusts. So far....Mattson sensei hasn't told me to stop. And....it makes perfect physiologic sense. And....I now have more in my sanchin.
And....god hasn't struck me down with lightning - yet.
This gets very confusing for the beginner student. And in the beginning, it is necessary to take a lot of things on faith before you truly appreciate them. This means a lot of sheer mimickry. But in the end we must apply the meaning of the movements in sanchin. You and I may have an identical understanding of what we are trying to accomplish in a move, but may choose to do it in slightly different ways. This is not bad; that's the art in martial arts.
-- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 06-14-99).]
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Sanchins?
Neal
Thought I would add another point.
Sanchin is the "lowest common denominator" of the Uechi system. But this doesn't necessarily mean that everyone performs it quite the same way. In fact, I can tell you that this is a reason to focus on it as a way to show one's individuality.
The classic example we all know is when watching a kyu rank doing a kyu kata. Often I can watch such a person do kanshu, and know what kind of errors to expect in their sanchin. Similarly, I have often made up my mind about a student's worthiness for a rank after only seeing their sanchin.
But there are also ranges of correct application of sanchin. The example that comes to mind is Nakamatsu sensei. This man has a very, very different way of applying power, and he teaches it to all his students. And he starts this instruction in sanchin kata. I call it "body whip" power. Basically it's a way to generate energy by taking advantage of a trained stretch reflex at multiple points in the body. Everyone who does sanchin well knows that the whole body is involved in a thrust. Nakamatsu chooses to apply this by using sequential rather than simultaneous contractions of muscle groups. It takes longer for the power to get to the fingers, but it is a lot stronger.
Should we all be upset at this unconventional approach? Absolutely not. Instead, I view it as an opportunity to celebrate this kata as a way to show (again, at the level of the lowest common denominator) what makes each of us unique in our practice.
-- Bill
Thought I would add another point.
Sanchin is the "lowest common denominator" of the Uechi system. But this doesn't necessarily mean that everyone performs it quite the same way. In fact, I can tell you that this is a reason to focus on it as a way to show one's individuality.
The classic example we all know is when watching a kyu rank doing a kyu kata. Often I can watch such a person do kanshu, and know what kind of errors to expect in their sanchin. Similarly, I have often made up my mind about a student's worthiness for a rank after only seeing their sanchin.
But there are also ranges of correct application of sanchin. The example that comes to mind is Nakamatsu sensei. This man has a very, very different way of applying power, and he teaches it to all his students. And he starts this instruction in sanchin kata. I call it "body whip" power. Basically it's a way to generate energy by taking advantage of a trained stretch reflex at multiple points in the body. Everyone who does sanchin well knows that the whole body is involved in a thrust. Nakamatsu chooses to apply this by using sequential rather than simultaneous contractions of muscle groups. It takes longer for the power to get to the fingers, but it is a lot stronger.
Should we all be upset at this unconventional approach? Absolutely not. Instead, I view it as an opportunity to celebrate this kata as a way to show (again, at the level of the lowest common denominator) what makes each of us unique in our practice.
-- Bill
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paul giella
- Posts: 315
- Joined: Sun Sep 27, 1998 6:01 am
Sanchins?
By its broadest definition, Sanchin is the "three conflicts" exercise, so any systematic, repetitive and established form which focuses on these three areas of development could lay claim to being "sanchin". Of course, that is an extreme position, but on ethat may make a point; its is not so much the exact angle of the elbow or the exact count of the sequence that defines sanchin, but rather the goals toward which it helps the student train.
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Allen M.
Sanchins?
I have friends in high places, Bill, and I can make the lightning arrangements if you wish....
I read this thread with great learning interest and don't have much to offer EXCEPT that I use Sanchin as a platform in which to describe other kata and fighting methods in our system.
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Allen - [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> - <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]
I read this thread with great learning interest and don't have much to offer EXCEPT that I use Sanchin as a platform in which to describe other kata and fighting methods in our system.
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Allen - [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> - <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Sanchins?
Allen
Ahhhh....so was it your friends who torched Anthony's computer? He must have been very bad.
On the other hand, I have lots of surge protectors, my house is in a valley, and the walls of my house are made of concrete. No wonder I mouth off so much with impunity!
- Bill
Ahhhh....so was it your friends who torched Anthony's computer? He must have been very bad.
On the other hand, I have lots of surge protectors, my house is in a valley, and the walls of my house are made of concrete. No wonder I mouth off so much with impunity!
- Bill
Sanchins?
It is interesting to discuss the differences you observe in the performance of kata. It is my understanding that as you study up to shodan/nidan, you essentially should try to focus on the "template" to the degree possible. I have found that this can be a confusing, shifting target goal at times, but it is attainable if you sift carefully through the demos and the corrections of your teachers. As my teacher declares "It's out there". Sometimes our job as a student is to exhibit a diligent seeking of knowledge. It may not be spoon-fed. This is probably as it should be.
After shodan/nidan, you can then begin to tinker and from a greater level of mastery or "die-maker", stamp out a little of your own interpretation and flare into the kata.
More often than not as a student, we see the "template" from the teacher, but occasional in a class of sempais, we get a chance to observe more of the different facets that reflect different aspects. This can be mind blowing and absolutely cool!
Kata from an advanced practitioner, is a performance that displays his mood or teaching point of the class. I suppose this can elicit some level of confusion to the fair-weather student, but to those studying more seriously and routinely, we usually get it. This makes the whole aspect of studying karate and kata more exciting, less boring than becoming mere robotekas.
Nothing is perfect, but yet still we strive ...
JohnC
After shodan/nidan, you can then begin to tinker and from a greater level of mastery or "die-maker", stamp out a little of your own interpretation and flare into the kata.
More often than not as a student, we see the "template" from the teacher, but occasional in a class of sempais, we get a chance to observe more of the different facets that reflect different aspects. This can be mind blowing and absolutely cool!
Kata from an advanced practitioner, is a performance that displays his mood or teaching point of the class. I suppose this can elicit some level of confusion to the fair-weather student, but to those studying more seriously and routinely, we usually get it. This makes the whole aspect of studying karate and kata more exciting, less boring than becoming mere robotekas.
Nothing is perfect, but yet still we strive ...
JohnC
Sanchins?
Well,I fully intend to train and learn with sensei Jackson and do everything as he was taught in Okinawa.(he spent 8 years there under Seiki Irei)
He even showed me a home video tape of a demonstration put on by his dojo with kamei Uechi doing kata in it as well.
I think that all the fractions of Uechi should be doing the same katas with no "varations."Any alterations should be for the purpose of a bunkai only,I would think.Thats just my humble opionion...I'll practice his way in his dojo and my way at home and take what I can to my benefit.
Thanks for the in-put!! Neal
He even showed me a home video tape of a demonstration put on by his dojo with kamei Uechi doing kata in it as well.
I think that all the fractions of Uechi should be doing the same katas with no "varations."Any alterations should be for the purpose of a bunkai only,I would think.Thats just my humble opionion...I'll practice his way in his dojo and my way at home and take what I can to my benefit.
Thanks for the in-put!! Neal
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Allen M.
Sanchins?
Bill,
The Florida incident was merely a simple 'stroke'. However after you said "And....god hasn't struck me down with lightning - yet." I was envisioning a slightly different request.
<hr>
Johnc,
For a template examples' sake, something done not infrequently is extract the horizontal elbow strike from a kata and apply it as a swift blow to the side of the head as a high-section strike, or as a windup for an elbow into the groin as a low-section strike.
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Allen - [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> - <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]
The Florida incident was merely a simple 'stroke'. However after you said "And....god hasn't struck me down with lightning - yet." I was envisioning a slightly different request.
<hr>
Johnc,
For a template examples' sake, something done not infrequently is extract the horizontal elbow strike from a kata and apply it as a swift blow to the side of the head as a high-section strike, or as a windup for an elbow into the groin as a low-section strike.
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Allen - [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> - <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]
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Bill Glasheen
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- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
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Sanchins?
Neal
My feelings about "variations" have already been expressed by myself and others.
But let's work with your desire for no variations in sanchin. How would we set about accomplishing that goal?
One way is for each instructor to guard the "purity" of the kata on his/her own. There are some organizations in the greater Uechi community (no names mentioned) that have elected to do this by completely isolating themselves from others and doing only what the Grand Poobah says is the "right" way to do things. If we have several organizations doing this, then we have "purity" within each organization. But....what you will find is that each group will drift in what it does. I'm not talking theory, I'm talking 100% certainty. Furthermore, the reasons why a certain way of doing things is the "correct" way can be lost if nobody questions the standard (unless of course you do your sanchin in the traditional underwear of times past). And if we have lost the reasons why we do things a particular way (other than the fact that sensei says so or else), we have lost the essence of our art.
The other way we can accomplish that is for all organizations to get together and hash out what is the right way. How would we do that? Well...we could get all the seniors (and their egos) together to accomplish that task. That'll happen a year after the Beatles get back together and cut another album (er....CD). Or....we could have all the juniors visiting each others' dojos and practicing together. This can work! But....it'll drive someone like you crazy - today. I know, I've been where you are. The variations you will observe from dojo to dojo will make you want to go postal. How dare anyone change sanchin!
Oh, by the way, want to know where you'll see some of the greatest variations in how sanchin is practiced? Okinawa. I know - I've watched the great masters on Thompson island, Endicott college, etc performing sanchin in the same weekend. These folks probably flew over on the plane together. And they do things differently. And if you ask them why (like I did back when I didn't understand), they'll tell you something like 'Do what your teacher tells you to do.' Nevertheless, these group workouts will minimize the variations in sanchin as well as mondern television has reduced the variations in the way the "king's English" is spoken.
An important part of any such effort at maintaining sanchin's "purity" is doing some history work. If you follow the logic to an extreme, what you'd like to do is go in a time machine and take a video of Shushiwa teaching Kanbun sanchin. I can tell you that this is about as close as you'll get to purity of the "original". More than a few people have made the trek to China in the last decade or so, and nobody is doing anything like a sanchin that we would recognize. And Kanbun, after all, only studied for 10 years. That's not all that long when you consider how long some in the US alone have studied. Given there was nothing like video and good books, etc, and martial arts were taught by word of mouth, there was probably a lot of "impurity" in what they did.
Furthermore, it is my hypothesis that many of the Chinese choreographed kata like the way jazz musicians wrote music, or the Grateful Dead played their own music. I would guess that some in the Chinese community of times past would find it funny that there were folks outside of China looking to "standardize" the way they did a kata.
Your perspective is valid, Neal, particularly considering where you are in your training and your desire to treat the style and this piece of history with respect and reverence. But you can see that the challenges for maintaining a standard are daunting. Nevertheless, the journey is a worthy one. And after all, it's the journey that makes the art - not the destination.
-- Bill
My feelings about "variations" have already been expressed by myself and others.
But let's work with your desire for no variations in sanchin. How would we set about accomplishing that goal?
One way is for each instructor to guard the "purity" of the kata on his/her own. There are some organizations in the greater Uechi community (no names mentioned) that have elected to do this by completely isolating themselves from others and doing only what the Grand Poobah says is the "right" way to do things. If we have several organizations doing this, then we have "purity" within each organization. But....what you will find is that each group will drift in what it does. I'm not talking theory, I'm talking 100% certainty. Furthermore, the reasons why a certain way of doing things is the "correct" way can be lost if nobody questions the standard (unless of course you do your sanchin in the traditional underwear of times past). And if we have lost the reasons why we do things a particular way (other than the fact that sensei says so or else), we have lost the essence of our art.
The other way we can accomplish that is for all organizations to get together and hash out what is the right way. How would we do that? Well...we could get all the seniors (and their egos) together to accomplish that task. That'll happen a year after the Beatles get back together and cut another album (er....CD). Or....we could have all the juniors visiting each others' dojos and practicing together. This can work! But....it'll drive someone like you crazy - today. I know, I've been where you are. The variations you will observe from dojo to dojo will make you want to go postal. How dare anyone change sanchin!
Oh, by the way, want to know where you'll see some of the greatest variations in how sanchin is practiced? Okinawa. I know - I've watched the great masters on Thompson island, Endicott college, etc performing sanchin in the same weekend. These folks probably flew over on the plane together. And they do things differently. And if you ask them why (like I did back when I didn't understand), they'll tell you something like 'Do what your teacher tells you to do.' Nevertheless, these group workouts will minimize the variations in sanchin as well as mondern television has reduced the variations in the way the "king's English" is spoken.
An important part of any such effort at maintaining sanchin's "purity" is doing some history work. If you follow the logic to an extreme, what you'd like to do is go in a time machine and take a video of Shushiwa teaching Kanbun sanchin. I can tell you that this is about as close as you'll get to purity of the "original". More than a few people have made the trek to China in the last decade or so, and nobody is doing anything like a sanchin that we would recognize. And Kanbun, after all, only studied for 10 years. That's not all that long when you consider how long some in the US alone have studied. Given there was nothing like video and good books, etc, and martial arts were taught by word of mouth, there was probably a lot of "impurity" in what they did.
Furthermore, it is my hypothesis that many of the Chinese choreographed kata like the way jazz musicians wrote music, or the Grateful Dead played their own music. I would guess that some in the Chinese community of times past would find it funny that there were folks outside of China looking to "standardize" the way they did a kata.
Your perspective is valid, Neal, particularly considering where you are in your training and your desire to treat the style and this piece of history with respect and reverence. But you can see that the challenges for maintaining a standard are daunting. Nevertheless, the journey is a worthy one. And after all, it's the journey that makes the art - not the destination.
-- Bill
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JOHN THURSTON
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- Contact:
Sanchins?
Sanchin?
Well, last time I went down this road I said that I felt that Sanchin is a type ot Chi Kung.
This occassioned some criticism.
However, the point remains that it is not a "Kata" etched in stone, or, at least for each of us, the etching is never complete.
Evan Sensei has broadened our understanding of the points of attack, as an example. This would lead to practicing Sanchin (I hope) with a high emphasis on "visualization" of opponents and targets, a "red shift" away from the "Chi Kung" "breathing exercise" type of focus.
My cross training (Tai Chi) would emphasize: "don't bounce" in Sanchin which is OK but a more "natural" type of breathing, which I am not sure is the same "natural"-----???
Well, I don't believe in long posts, and I never "cottoned" to the tea cup starting postion for the Wa-Uke, I don't think there are "kicks" in the form, except to note that when a "form" presents itself to release the weight from one foot, that foot is also released for a kick.
JOHN T
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Well, last time I went down this road I said that I felt that Sanchin is a type ot Chi Kung.
This occassioned some criticism.
However, the point remains that it is not a "Kata" etched in stone, or, at least for each of us, the etching is never complete.
Evan Sensei has broadened our understanding of the points of attack, as an example. This would lead to practicing Sanchin (I hope) with a high emphasis on "visualization" of opponents and targets, a "red shift" away from the "Chi Kung" "breathing exercise" type of focus.
My cross training (Tai Chi) would emphasize: "don't bounce" in Sanchin which is OK but a more "natural" type of breathing, which I am not sure is the same "natural"-----???
Well, I don't believe in long posts, and I never "cottoned" to the tea cup starting postion for the Wa-Uke, I don't think there are "kicks" in the form, except to note that when a "form" presents itself to release the weight from one foot, that foot is also released for a kick.
JOHN T
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