Rank! What does it really mean?

[Gary Santaniello]

Surely this is a very delicate subject with as many answers as there are opinions. It would be fair to say that it is what it means (or doesn't mean) to us individually.However, i think that this controversial subject has some issues of debate.

It is not my intention to insult anyones veiwpoint and i would certainly like to hear response from some higher ranked seniors. Sensei Van Canna, Sensei George Mattson,any others? Certainly other dan ranks and instructors veiws are encouraged.

There are several reasons why i bring this subject up. First,i have been asked by both laymen and dan ranked people, what is the difference between a 1st degree and a higher degree? To me it seems to be easy enough to explain.

The difference is, that the higher degrees should have more years of study in the art with a deeper understanding of it's physical, spiritual, and mental aspects. As we move into senior ranks, one shold be involved in the "teaching" aspects along with the continuous path of learning. That definition has always been accepted without debate when i present it.

Rank was originally set forth to have some meaning. Was it not? I understand that there are a lot of ego's attached to this "label" but so isn't it attached to many others. Therefore, do we need to deny that there is meaning simply so as not to appear to be refle
cting " on our ego's?

I understand the concept of de-emphasizing rank so as not to get hung up on to much "attachment" to it.
However, how does it really come across to our lower dan ranks, kyu ranks, our laymen when we start expressing, "rank means nothing"?

Surely, there are lower ranks that have some superior abilty in fighting or kata. As Mike Murphy points out, "there are A students and there are D students. Not all can be A"s" This is true as we all know.

Of course in "reality" most of know that a good street fighter or somone high on dope may be more than some of us could handle, even with all our degrees and trophies and reputations.
I understand here that "rank" may have no meaning but, i believe that we all should maintain some meaning and value as to it.

We should at least continue to "respect" those above us in rank who deserve to be respected, and they should also maintain a level of respect for those seeking the same "path". Lets not completely sell short the meaning of rank so as not to "appear" to be egotistical? For those who are so "attatched" let go and yes, that is
where the de-emphisizing need to be.

I have met some very impressive 3rd, 4th and 5th dans that are very "unattached" to there rank and ego, but when i see these individuals perform, i feel that they are worthy of "respect" for their rank and abilities.

I was pleased with most of the responses on my first post, Respect of dan ranks" with the exception of one distrupting unrelated .........! I hope that many of you will respond to this "topic" i am very interested in how some of you FEEL!

Domo Arrigato's




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Gary S.


Gary S

[SecondMidnight]

Mr. Santaniello,

I have contemplated the same issue for a number of years now. Why does the use of ranking systems seem almost artificial or commercial now? What meaning do they hold? Why are some black belts of noticibly more proficiant skill levels than others?

What I can say is this:
1. Historically, belt ranking has had meaning when in the context of the cultures they were developed in. They were never developed in the type of competitive, MTV, quick-fix type of culture where the notion of respect for elders doesn't hold the same meaning. In this sense, the implementation of this type of ranking system (and its true meaning) can't also be transplated.

2. Everything you do in your school comes down to what standards you set for yourself. If you allow your students to skate by with sub-standard techniques and below average effort (which, from a marketing standpoint, doesn't go well with the rather pudgy MTV generation). Your standards of excellence is what will stand out in your practice of the martial arts. The rank will only have its meaning when you uphold the standards upon which it was built.

3. Take ranking with a grain of salt. You should respect someone's ability based off of their skills and how they conduct themselves.

I wrote an article on this issue which is displayed on my (new) website at: http://www.traininghalls.com. There is also a discussion board for you to post replies, etc.

Thanks,

SecondMidnight
2nd Dan
Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do



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[Allen M.]

Dear SecondMidnight,

I just read your article entitled Am I a black belt? It also took me many years of often nightly practice to move through the dan ranks in several Korean systems so I look at what you are looking at with similar jaded vision, especially when I see them get their 1st dan with only 2 years and 200 hours of training. I have two thoughts 1) It didn't matter to me what color belt I wore in the days when I could fight because they knew who I was, but 2) It is VERY unfair to the young student with the dye still wet; a real disillusionment. But that is the way of the world; you either have to accept it or get out.

I have a question for you about Moo Duk Kwan. I am going to ask it in the Martial Arts History, Culture and Philosophy forum and would appreciate your response.

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Allen - [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> - <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]

[This message has been edited by Allen M. (edited 06-12-99).]

[Van Canna]

The rank quandary is another moral dilemma ! There are countless ways to look at it !

One might be that , given the martial arts world is the abode of the extreme egocentric , rank and titles are the props of power which seduce the emotionally weak ,i.e., the ones who pursue and badger and demand to be "elevated" !

Then we have the political factions jockeying for dominance and control dangling this " prestige symbol" before the lame brained to entice and make believe that they will be more worthy when it is bestowed upon them ! Thus we have "rank" abuses in Okinawa as well as in the States as tools of dominance and control !

For some , a big rank will always amount to no other than " their name on a plaque on a washroom door " so as to elicit " instant approval" from everyone they meet !

The rank starts to mean "something" when it is the quiet companion of a worth from within , which in manifesting itself in quietly effective emotional and physical ways , it serves to foil the need to collect more and more props of illusory power and prowess !

" A man said to the Universe : < Sir I exist > ___ "However " replied the Universe , " the fact has not created in me a sense of obligation " { Stephen Crane }

Peace ,




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Van Canna


[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited 06-12-99).]

[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited 06-12-99).]

[mikemurphy]

Gary-san,

First of all, thanks again for stopping by the dojo on Wednesday. I hope you had a good time. My students and I both loved having you work with us. You are always welcome when you are in the area.

Regarding your question.....Rank is a funny question and topic to ask about, as I have told you. I think most people when asked publically (or via email)will tell you that it doesn't mean anything to them and that they would be happy working with a white belt or no belt at all. I have always found that extremely noble of them. In a perfect world, we would have no egos to pat, but unfortunately, we all do to some degree or another. Don't you agree?

To be perfectly honest, I think rank is important because it sets up that heirarchy that is so prominent in Japanese society. We should look to our eldars with respect for what they know and what they will teach us. I am extremely proud of what I have earned in my martial arts career and hope to continue on for many years to come. I think that most people feel the same way in their hearts.

Of course the rank of the person has should reflect how they teach or how they train. That is the bottom line I think.

Yours in budo,

mike

[Bill Glasheen]

I must say that I've had a very different perspective on rank, based on my experiences.

My first style of karate, Nippon Shorin Ken, was taught by a Japanese who - at the time - did not give out rank very freely. We would have a hundred students in a class with years of experience, and rarely so much as a shodan among the group. We all felt that anything we got, we earned.

Years later I began Uechi ryu. And 3.5 years after that, I had the responsibility of running the dojo thrust on me. It was either that or lose the ability to practice Uechi ryu. Interestingly enough, I had practiced martial arts for over 5 years then, and I basically didn't have a rank. But I had a bit of experience breaking the norms of behavior. You see, I am technically a high school dropout. I started college before I finished high school. Since I was doing well, they accepted me and I never looked back. So I took on the responsibility of running the school, but I quietly worked (at great expense in time and travel - and at the personal expense of a few benevolent people) to get the rank that others expected of me.

There really was no competition to speak of at that time. It was the mid-seventies, and there was no Uechi in central Virginia. And there wasn't much in the way of developed martial arts in general - at least developed to the point where I felt it was a "threat". Nevertheless, having that black belt created somewhat of an image problem. When people who don't know you turn their trust over to you, they expect some type of certification that you are competent. Not everyone was willing to accept me as an instructor without that mark of approval, regardless of its real meaning. So - to use a crass thought - getting that black belt was something I felt that I needed to get done and out of the way in the same way that a young teenager views losing virginity. It had no meaning to me, but it was something that had to pass before I could get on to more meaningful duties as an instructor.

To me there has always been that schizophrenic thinking. On the one had I have done fine in my learning without all those trappings. On the other hand it has been necessary for me to jump through all those hoops so that my students could benefit from the authority and independence that this silly piece of paper brought. Now that high rank is more common and the level of litigeousness has risen, rank brings on another silly but yet unavoidable meaning - it protects you in a court of law. Whether we like it or not, Joe and Sally Jury think that this certification and stamp of approval means something. They see that their children are taught only by teachers with proper education and training, and they expect the same from someone who teaches a karate class. Most in the public are not aware of the arbitrary assignment of rank by some in the world. And even if they did, they would still expect an individual to be qualified to teach if they were assuming that responsibility. A certification process is still necessary, even if there are some whose activity makes it have no meaning. And a certification process requires a process and hierarchy to maintain it.

In my journey I have been saddened by the activity of those whose behavior allows them to obtain the certificate without the proper qualifications or necessary time in rank. But for me it's always been the process and not the trappings. If trappings were important, I would have insisted that my old high school alma mater (Phillips Exeter) award me a graduation certificate after all I've been through. But for me the acquisition of knowledge was more important than the recognition of it. I got my dan rank so that my students could get recognition. I got my Ph.D. so that NIH and NSF and the AHA would read my grant proposals and send money. I was able to get on in life without the high school diploma, so I remain a dropout.

Nevertheless, I have always made certain that I lived up to my own standards when it came to achieving rank. I instituted a thesis process when it came time for me to be considered for renshi. To me, master means expert and an expert in academia needed to go through a process (like a dissertation) before being recognized as such.

To all those who put the trappings before the process, I can't stop them. But I do pity them. And for all those who abuse the rank process to subjugate others, well....I can't stop them either. But I pity them too. Imagine the legions of mindless idiots that would follow such people. What a legacy!

-- Bill

[Gary Santaniello]

Having read the responses to this post, i would like to note the quality of replies and comment myself to what has been discussed.

Second Midnight ask "Why is it that some black belts have noticebly more proficiant skill levels than others?" I am sure many have wondered that although i think most of know, it referes back to the fact that there are "A" students and "D" students, at all levels. I tend to believe also that "Ranking Systems" had true meaning in the context in which they were developed and that the standards you set for yourself and your students will set the tone for it's meaning. However, the problem with that is, what if the teacher him/herself has sublevel standards? There is a problem.

I also appreciate where Allen M. reflects on the fact that his "fighting ability" made people know who he was and that dissillusionment are unfair to many young (and older) students who still have the dye wet on their belts. I agree! However, shouldn't there still be "some meaning" to rank for those who have worked very hard for many years? After all, fighting is not "all" that is found in karate.(with all respect)

Sensei Van Canna points out,"The rank quandy is another moral dilema! There are countless ways to look at it!" Yes, how true. "The rank starts to mean "something" when it is the quiet companion of a worth from "within" ect. ect. Surely i can appreciate the "depth" of what you say.(after reflecting on it)

Mike also makes a good point, most people when asked publically will tell you that it doesn't mean anything to be "extremely noble," but actually feel somewhat different inside. Certainly there is some truth that!

"The rank of a person "should" reflect how they teach or how they train!"
Thanks Mike

Bill G. has yes, a very different perspective on rank. The "old school?"
I respect that also. However, the statement, "I have always made cerain that i lived up to "My Own" standards when it came to achieving rank?" Surely then, it has some meaning? and yes, the "Process" is what it's about.

It is a pleasure to be able to interact on this site. Thanks to Bill Glasheen for providing an "open forum" to all!







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Gary S.


Gary S

[JOHN THURSTON]

Hello All:

Van Sensei I liked the quote from Crane.

Two thoughts leap into mind:

1. I didn't have "rank" until 1982, since the Japanese don't recognize Kyu Rank as "rank", or so I am told. So, like Sensei Bill, I had to drag up enough ego (too much? Ok.) to run a Dojo while I figured out where to go to get training and certifications etc..

2. There are undoubtedly hundreds of situations such as might occur when a new liuetenant takes over a Platoon which has a couple of veteran sergeants. In a combat situation, the "newbie" had better have been told to whom to listen.

JOHN T

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[miked]

Hi all,

Yeah, that's right. I'M BACK! (Damn infernal PC's, they're supposed to make life easier not ****** all of the dollars out of your pocket and all of the time out of your life!).

Oh well.

Now to the question at hand which I'll phrase as "Why have ranks?". Here is my take on the whole issue. In the beginning, that is to say long before my time, we all know they were no ranks when Uechi Kanbun studied and trained in China. Right?

After all he and all the other students that trained in China in the early days had no ego and were simply training to be noble, kind, just and honourable.

WRONG!! Uechi Kanbun and all of the other style founders were no less human than all the rest of us. I have heard many dan ranks claim and I have even expressed the sentiment that the dan rank is really not all that important. That what really counts is what one can do on the floor and on the street. This last statement is true, IMO, to a point. But let's fdace it we all love getting a pat on the back for a job well-done and if we didn't have egos we wouldn't have started training in the first place.

Oh I can hear you say "But Mike, I only trained to learn 'self-defense' and I kept training to discpline my mind, body and spirit and that I continued on the path so that I could teach others." Hey that's great, I feel the same way but the fact that you felt enough of a sense of self-preservation to start training in the first place indicates that you have a body, mind and spirit that you wanted to protect and that is what an ego gives you. It presents to you a sense of worth or else we all might as well just lie down in the street and get run over by a car. The fact that you wanted to dicipline your mind, body and spirit indicates that you value all of these components of your individuality and the fact that you want to share your knowledge with others is an indication that you understand that others also have an ego that wants to preserve , protect and defend their minds, bodies and spirits. Willingness to teach also indciates that you have a sense of commnunity and caring of others that comes from a sense your own self-worth. If you didn't have this sense of worth than you would be an ineffective teacher because you would feel inadequate to meet the challenge and to pass your knowledge along.

That sense of self-worth is important in learning to deal with difficult situations.
Since we can never replicate in the dojo a real life and death struggle (unless you want bodies being carted away) the dan test is the closest we can come in determining how students respond to stress and the accomplishment of the rank is earned for the effort the student has put in, not just test day, but for all the days of training that have gone before. Reward and recognition are strong motivators and even in Uechi Kanbun's days the master would issue a license to those students who wished to train others (menkyo?). Uechi Kanbun also stated that he would watch the 'senior students' and try to replicate their movements and that they would come over and try to help him when he first started. How did Uechi Kanbun know that these students were senior to him if there wasn't some sort of ranking system in place even if that ranking system was informal?

Another point to consider, the time and effort contributed to the growth of the art should be recognized for those worthy of such award. After a certain point one's physical abilities may degrade simply due to the aging process, the higher ranks are given to recognize the contribution of those individuals who have spent a lifetime promoting and spreading the art. This also serves as a motivator for those of us who have not yet reached those higher levels.
At my current rank (Yondan), I have been informed that, technically, I am not permitted to open a dojo. Thay I have to wait until I reach the rank of Godan. My goal is to open my own dojo, someday, so you can bet your bottom dollar that I will be working faithfully to earn my Godan. I don't have a problem with this since it serves to remind me that I have to work hard to accomplish my goals.

Ranks should stay, ego's exist and promotions should be based on competence and contributions.

All the best,

Mike

[Jackie Olsen]

Great Post, Mike!

I especially liked what you had to say on self-worth and teaching.

Here's to your diligence and perseverance on the way to Godan.

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In Beauty,

Jackie

[Gary Santaniello]

Hi Mike!

Thank you for your input. I am glad that you expressed your veiw and opinion on the subject. Well said!

Surely "ego" has a place within the mind, body and spirit unity as you refer to. We should be able to feel a sense of accomplishment and self worth for our many years of training and hard work.

Unfotunately, to much "ego" becomes destructive to ourselves and others around us when individuals become so attatched to it that "rank" then becomes something other than how you describe it.

As far as you "being told" that you can not (or however you put it) open a dojo until you reach "Godan", I beg to strongly disagree with that opinion. I cannot speak for anyone else but i will say this, i personally know of several instructors whom began their own dojo's at sandan and yondan rank, myself included. But, one should still continue to study and develop higher levels of understanding in both "depth" and "efficiency". I would think that one would "encourage" you to open a dojo if that is your deire and help you on that path.

I only have but a small group of students myself, but i will say that the personal satitsfaction i get in "their" development cannot be expressed. Doing it for money may be another story.






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Gary S.


Gary S

[miked]

Jackie,

Thanks much for your compliment. I also appreciate your encouragement. I promise to do my best to meet and beat expectations.

Gary,

I also thank you for your comments and for having the courage to raise the matter in this thread. It is an important topic which is often swept under the rug.

I whole-heartedly agree that too much ego is a bad thing and we have all seen those who swagger aorund the dojo throwing their ranks around by intimidating the lower ranks. That type of behavior is not acceptable in any dojo. Again, I say the true test of one's ability is proven on the dojo floor and/or out in the street. However, in order to survive a dojo or a street encounter one's ego comes into play to preserve, protect and defend your precious individuality. In my opinion, false humility is just as obnoxious as swaggering ego-mania. I guess it is the difference between displaying confidence and "beating one's chest".

As to the "Godan" rule, I have been told by my current SOKE that students are not permitted to open dojos until they have earned the rank of Godan. Now having said that, I do realize that students within this same organization (especially in the US) have opened dojos prior to earning that rank. I believe that some students did so because they were no longer conveniently located to regularly train with their instructor and wanted to start classes to develop training partners. In any case, I do not wish to offend the powers that be and I will follow the rules as laid out by my SOKE and organization. In the meantime, I will take your suggestion and teach privately to a few select students on an informal basis.

All the best,

Mike