I told you so

Bill's forum was the first! All subjects are welcome. Participation by all encouraged.

Moderator: Available

Post Reply
User avatar
Bill Glasheen
Posts: 17299
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY

I told you so

Post by Bill Glasheen »

The following is extracted from MSNBC news. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>June 21 — Silicone breast implants do not cause immune-system disorders, cancers or other major illnesses, according to a panel of experts convened by the Institute of Medicine. However, the implants may burst or deflate, causing infections or hardening of breast tissue, the panelists said Monday.

EVIDENCE TO DATE suggests “there is no life-threatening disease caused by these implants,” said Dr. Thomas Fahey, Jr., a panel member and senior vice president for clinical program development at Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center in New York.

In reaching its conclusions, the 13-member committee appointed by the IOM, the government-funded medical arm of the National Academy of Sciences, reviewed more than 3,000 reports and heard evidence from experts, industry representatives and women who reported health problems.

The report concluded that women with implants are just as likely as women without them to get serious diseases.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Later in the article, the following is mentioned. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Dow Corning, once the world’s largest maker of silicone gel implants, filed for protection from creditors in May 1995 after it was hit with thousands of lawsuits from women alleging the implants caused health problems.

The Michigan-based company, a joint venture of Dow Chemical Co. and Corning Inc., denied the implants cause disease.

Earlier this month, some of the claimants approved a Chapter 11 bankruptcy court reorganization plan for Dow Corning. It was called for in an agreement reached last year with a committee representing about 176,000 women for a $3.2 billion settlement.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, the Institute of Medicine panel did acknowledge problems with ruptures, tissue contraction, and infection, but these are not the problems that caused a major U.S. firm to go bankrupt in the competitive, global marketplace. What caused this bankruptsy was trial by media sensationalism and legal anecdote. In other words, ambulance-chasing lawyers and yellow journalists put their kids through college and bought vacation cottages over pure misinformation - at the expense of people who do "real" work and create the jobs that run our economy.

This was reported on the NBC nightly news Monday night, so it must be true! Tom Brokaw himself said so.

Why am I bothering to bring this up? For several reasons.

* Some time back I mentioned these studies coming out in the literature, and my comments were questioned. Told you so, nyea, nyea. But seriously...

* As far back as martial arts have been practiced, the medicinal and martial arts have been linked. One cannot render the body helpless without first understanding how it works. And one cannot perfect a physical artform without knowing how to heal the injuries that come with the practice.

* One cannot practice medicine - even the art of self maintenance - without evidence-based methods.

* All "methods" being practiced in and outside of traditional medicine have not been tested. Nevertheless many proceed to practice them, and use anecdotes to justify their use.

* To the credit of those that criticize Dow Corning, the essentially unleashed a product into the marketplace without doing long-term human studies. They were lucky enough to have a relatively safe product (note the language), and unlucky enough to become the target of litigeous, greedy individuals with no grasp of either science or ethics.

* This is a classic example of why we need science to investigate phenomena around us (like chi and other such "entities"). Considering how poorly U.S. citizens do in their science education (compared to other industrialized countries) and considering the kind of disasterous awards given by citizen juries, we see clear examples of why we shouldn't be practicing scientific judgment by trial or by advice from a neighbor.

Consider that the next time your friend tells you about that really neat supplement available at the local "Health Food Store".

Consider that the next time you try something new in your dojo with large groups of people.

Consider that the next time someone tells you about "paranormal" phenomena in the martial arts.

Next on the soap box...

- Bill
JOHN THURSTON
Posts: 2445
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 1998 6:01 am
Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
Contact:

I told you so

Post by JOHN THURSTON »

I REALLY should investigate this "ambulance chasing thing.

At least those lawyers are getting THEIR kids through college.

J.

------------------
User avatar
Bill Glasheen
Posts: 17299
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY

I told you so

Post by Bill Glasheen »

John

The total sum of awards by all makers of this product is somewhere around $7 billion. Even at 10%, that would buy a lot of beer for junior at the frat parties.

Almost makes you want to dance with the devil. Almost.

- Bill
Allen M.

I told you so

Post by Allen M. »

Cheese Bill,

$7B? I'm going to send my boys to law school. Any suggestions John?




------------------
Allen - [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> - <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]
User avatar
Bill Glasheen
Posts: 17299
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY

I told you so

Post by Bill Glasheen »

I just had one of those hallway conversations with one of my mentors, who is VP for corporate medical policy. He also serves on the national TEC committee that establishes whether or not new therapies meet the criteria for "recommended". These stamps of approval ultimately affect the whole insurance industry.

Larry shook his head about the above situation, and related the issue about ABMT for breast cancer (Autologous Bone Marrow Transplant). This is one of those therapies where you save marrow, fry someone with radio &/or chemotherapy, and then replant the marrow, in hopes that you kill the cancer without killing the patient. It is one of those "last chance" therapies. It also happens to cost around $100,000 per patient.

In the past insurance companies wouldn't cover it because it was classified as experimental. This means that the therapy could be effective, but nobody had proven it to date. It was "obvious" to the researchers who thought - from first principles - that it should work. But the real science had not been done. Well no patient can afford the $100K out of their pocket, and the government wasn't coughing up the money quickly, so the insurance company was the obvious deep pocket to pick. So the researchers had their patients sue the insurance companies. They would bring in "experts" (who had vested interests) into court to testify about their opionion of the efficacy of the treatment. "Expert" witnesses get special status in court. You can come in with all the preliminary science you want, but an "expert" can blow you away. In the end many patients won their legal battles with the insurance companies, and some state legislatures mandated that the insurance companies had to pay for the procedure.

And many patients subsequently went through the procedure. And many of them died - because of the procedure. And then just this year a similar expert panel determined that the treatment was ineffective.

Oh well....

Wanna get better with my glycomolecular supernutrino salamander oil supplement? My friend took it and got better. He's now speaking in 3 languages as a side-benefit to the treatment.

And do you have the power of the secret handshake in your karate? Now THAT'S an obvious, well-known martial arts power, right?

And imagine if one day a student of yours gets hurt in a sparring match, and the prosecuting attorney calls in Jhoon Rhee as an "expert witness". What? You weren't using his saftey equipment? You weren't using safety methods endorsed by the International Takeyourdo Federation? Obviously you are dangerous and out of control.

I don't mean to be such a stick-in-the-mud but....

* Be careful

* Be informed

* Be skeptical

* Look at the evidence

* When listening to advocates, consider the source

* And remember that possession of a lawyer is 9/10 of the law
Gene DeMambro
Posts: 1684
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 1998 6:01 am
Location: Weymouth, MA US of A

I told you so

Post by Gene DeMambro »

Folks,

I completely agree with Bill and the Good Dr. about the benefits of good science. My hospital was even a trial site for the ABMT procedure. However...

Don't go trashing the court system, lawyers, expert witnesses and the ancillaries. These entities are their to protect YOUR rights! That's correct. They are there to protect YOU, collectively, as citizens and residents of this great nation. So, a few bad, evil apples in the bunch, yes. But, let's not cast the entire lot into the flaming pits of Hades.

Don't go yapping about the Juice because he might have committed the crime and was found not gulity. His lawyers did a hell of a job! Why? They protected his rights!

Don't go mouthing off about lawyers because you happen to disagree with them. Why? Becasue the legal system is woefully complicated and you need an expert (i.e. a lawyer) to help your way through it to PROTECT YOUR RIGHTS.

Good thread extoling the virtues of science, however!

Gene
User avatar
Bill Glasheen
Posts: 17299
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY

I told you so

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Gene

Lawyers and the Legal System

I too do not get involved in gratuitous bashing of lawyers and the legal system. In fact some of my best friends are....er... And my family has two of our own designated SOBs.

In actuality, I am a fan of the legal system when it comes to protecting individual rights. Believe it or not, I am a closet supporter of the ACLU.

But I mourn the abuse of the system. What good is a legal system when a person is found innocent or free of fault, but they have lost their life savings proving it? The sad fact today is that money often wins. If you are wrong but you have more money than your adversary, you can send your opponent into a financial tail spin by litigating them to death. And the legal system does little to discourage this type of harassment. Furthermore, the activity of litigeous barristers is often driven by the smell of money. If Dow Corning was a tiny company with no assets, they never would have been put in that predicament. When was the last time you heard of someone winning an anti-frivolous lawsuit suit? When was the last time you heard of a lawyer being sued? As New York has its own alleged Blue Wall of protection for its police, so the legal system - today - protects its own. And so does the medical profession for that matter.

One of the reasons we remain nonprofit as a dojo in central Virginia is because we do not want to be the target of lawsuits. Heaven forbid people ever take responsibility for their actions, or assume and/or acknowledge risk in their activities. When someone gets hurt, the knee jerk reaction is to go to Dewey, Chetham, and Howe and seek retirement money.

Locally we have someone suing a karate school because they would not let an HIV positive boy paricipate in mainstream dojo activities. Never mind that the dojo owner offered a special program. Never mind that the parents lied - yes LIED - on the application about his medical condition. The school has won the most recent appeal, but now the representatives of the HIV-positive boy are taking it to the Supreme Court. So much for an honest person running a small business. Here we have special interests groups attempting to prove a point at the expense of an individual's right to make a living. Even if the dojo owner wins, he lo$e$.

"Western" medicine and science

It is often alleged by some who promote alternative (whatever that is) therapies, ideas, and paradigms that these (eastern??) concepts cannot be properly evaluated by "western" methods. Somehow "western" ideas and methods and issues and struggles are seen as concrete and/or simplistic and/or reductionist in nature. Chi and chi methods are "wholistic" and not subject to reductionist methods.

Baloney.

All such constructs are "human". All creators of human constructs and/or ideas and/or methods wear Fruit-o-the-Loom shorts (except for a chosen few that wear the Oki-o-the-Loom brand). All are subject to the laws of nature. And all need to pass the scrutiny of consumers. Science and statistics attempts to use universal laws and concepts and methods to ferret out the truth.

And westerners make mistakes too. BIG mistakes. And westerners often use the same old tired arguments and methods and tactics that the "alternative" crowd uses.

Truth is universal. It doesn't care about the color of your skin or the slant of your eyes or the amount of money you make. We should all seek to be friends with the truth, and abandon our emotional ties to unfounded claims or methods or ideas. And we should all seek to question our own ideas first.

Off the soapbox again...

-- Bill
User avatar
RACastanet
Posts: 3744
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Richmond, VA

I told you so

Post by RACastanet »

Let us not forget PCBs.

Since 1977, HUNDREDS of BILLIONS of $ have been spent disposing of the stuff by industry, as it is a 'potential' carcinogen. Yes, Bill and JD, it remains in the environment for a long time, but so does styrafoam and other plastics. You would die quicker from ingesting large amounts of plastic cups with your coffee than by ingesting PCBs. Of course, you could also drown in it, as test rats have.

My employer (good old GE) used the stuff for decades. A recent long term study of the health records of 7000 plus employees who had exposure to PCBs over a period of 25 to 40 years actually showed a small but notable inverse correlation to the expected death rate from cancers and all other causes.

The employees from the 40s, 50s, and 60s who handled the stuff lived longer and healthier lives than the general population ( of course, this could have been due to the generous pre HMO health care of the era). There are a few old timers in my office who just yesterday were joking about how they used PCB as a solvent to remove grease from their hands.

BTW, the consumers, shareholders and taxpayers picked up the tab for that boondoggle. And oh yes, so did Dow and others who manufactured the stuff in the first place.

The next environmental nightmare will come from all of the sodium azide being used in auto airbags. Talk about toxic, explosive stuff. Every year, millions of older cars are being junked with multiple containers of that stuff inside. I wonder who will pay for that cleanup?

Rich

[This message has been edited by RACastanet (edited 06-23-99).]
Gene DeMambro
Posts: 1684
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 1998 6:01 am
Location: Weymouth, MA US of A

I told you so

Post by Gene DeMambro »

Bill, et. al. ,

What I mourn is an increasing public misperception of applied science. People often times think that they can go out and destroy their environemnt, their air and water, dump destructive, noxious chemicals into the soil we grow our food, and they expect science to bail them out! Many people think that medicine/science has a cure-all for whatever debauchery they can find! Drug addict, no problem! We got publically funded detox centers! Alcoholic cirrhosis? No problem! We got poor, orphaned livers just wating for new homes! People out there sometimes think that their friendly neighborhood druggist has a "pill" that will perk them right up! Sometimes we do. Other times we don't. The lay public, who never took anything more difficult than high school chemistry, and maybe Geology 101 for their science elective in college need to know that science and technology is your best damn friend, and needs to be understood better.

I am all for detox centers. Every community, every prison, every hospital should have one. Drug addiction is more common than you tink. I am all for transplanting organs, even on the government's dime if necessary. But John Q. Public needs to get a grasp of the ever complex world of nature going on around him. That is how he will grow and develop.

Gene
User avatar
Bill Glasheen
Posts: 17299
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY

I told you so

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Gene

No arguments from me on that one. On the one hand we can treat ourselves like crap and depend on science to reroute our arteries or cut out our tumors or reconstruct our faces from the automobile accidents - OR - we could eat right and exercise and avoid smoking and wear a seat belt. Both require a little knowledge and application of science. Somewhere there is an issue of ethics and personal responsibility and respect for the limited resources around us. Too often people opt for entitlement over responsibility. Too often people depend on science to rescue them from excesses and rationalize their bad behavior rather than use it to make a better place for themselves and others.

And why skip smoking when we can just sue the tobacco companies when we are about to die and make our kids rich? Why worry about the consequences of putting a foreign body in our chest when we can shag Joe Six-pack today and sue Dow tomorrow? And maybe Blue Cross will pay to have the things removed when they break - NOT *.

Who else wants the soap box?

- Bill

* Our Blue Cross plan makes exceptions for women who need reconstructive surgery after breast cancer. There we will pay to have the plastic surgery done and repair any problems that come about with the implants. Cosmetic surgery (increasing your jiggle factor) is another thing altogether - a personal choice.

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 06-24-99).]
User avatar
Bill Glasheen
Posts: 17299
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY

I told you so

Post by Bill Glasheen »

J.D.

Point well taken. But there are degrees of "medical necessity". On the one hand you have a hair lip, which is a clear deviation from the norm and poses medical as well as psychological risks from both functional and asthetic points of view. And on the other hand you have Julia Noselfesteem who wants plastic surgery so she can look like Julia Roberts. I've been witness to interesting debates in our four walls between our VP of medical policy and a plastic surgeon consultant who reviews cases for us. The plastic surgeon will always see necessity when the patient wants it. And after all, when have you ever heard a surgeon turn a case down? To a hammer, everything looks like a nail. But when U.S. Widget Company wants low premiums and we need to make choices in what is covered with limited resources (and the drug companies have patients coming in demanding their Viagra and Claritin), well...those Julia Robert's lips don't look as medically necessary as the treatments for hair lip or an auto accident victim or someone born with a congenital heart defect.

Heaven forbid that a woman actually develop a mind or a personality (or other physical attributes) and make friends on the basis of something more substantive. And hey, I've done just fine in spite of my looks.

- Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 06-24-99).]
Post Reply

Return to “Bill Glasheen's Dojo Roundtable”