Hi All,
First things first:
Another great camp. Good to finally meet Dave Moy, RA Castanet and Bill Glasheen. It was good to meet John Thurston too. I hope we continue to have out history discussions long into the future.
Dave, you honor me by knocking a few years off my body. I might be younger than I appear on the web, but I am a few years older than you think. I'll leave the torch to be picked up by people like Rob Parsons and Pat Sheehan from my dojo-Nidans both at the ripe ages of 24 and 19. A bright future ahead indeed!
Now, down to business...
Mike Murphy Sensei wanted someone to ask, so here goes:
At our school, at the end of class, the class bows from seiza. The order is bow, clap twice, bow again. Then stand at sensei's command.
Mike noticed Uechi Sensei clap twice, then bow, then rise.
(1) How do you do it? (Yes, I'm soliciting opinion)
(2) How should it be done?
(3) Does it matter if there a few, minor differences?
I apologize if the thread is a repeat, but since I work at night, my memory is not what it used to be!
Gene
Bowing from Seiza
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Gene DeMambro
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Bowing from Seiza
Gene,
You have good genes then...
I remember doing the bowing ritual as you described in the Hancock St. dojo. Likewise, I was a little "off" when bowing in with Uechi sensei.
In my traditional aikido dojo, the instructor goes to the front of the class, faces the kamiza, and leads in a simple bow. S/he turns around and bows to the student as we bow to him/her. Then we stand.
Perhaps, there are different interpretations. None being right or wrong. It's a matter of "proper" attitude -- a clearing of the mind, a sense of gratitude for another training, and respect for those around us and those who preceded us... Hallow ground.
david
[This message has been edited by david (edited 08-05-99).]
You have good genes then...
I remember doing the bowing ritual as you described in the Hancock St. dojo. Likewise, I was a little "off" when bowing in with Uechi sensei.
In my traditional aikido dojo, the instructor goes to the front of the class, faces the kamiza, and leads in a simple bow. S/he turns around and bows to the student as we bow to him/her. Then we stand.
Perhaps, there are different interpretations. None being right or wrong. It's a matter of "proper" attitude -- a clearing of the mind, a sense of gratitude for another training, and respect for those around us and those who preceded us... Hallow ground.
david
[This message has been edited by david (edited 08-05-99).]
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gmattson
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Bowing from Seiza
Kanei Uechi performed the "full" bow. Kanmei prefers the "short" version. Same showing of respect for those who developed the style and are no longer with us. I was told the bow is a Shinto ritual, although most of us do not attribute a religious meaning to the bow. . . just respect and appreciation for the founders of our Uechi-ryu.
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GEM
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GEM
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Bill Glasheen
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Bowing from Seiza
Thanks for the input, George. This answered the original question quite well. Also, it's good to hear how other stylists open classes.
Along those same lines...
During the bowing in with Uechi Kanmei sensei, a certain individual around me made more than a few comments after the ceremony about clapping being a religious Shinto tradition, and how inappropriate it was for others to be doing it. He stated - loud enough for many to hear - that in his dojo he would not allow anyone to clap unless they were practicing Shintoists.
Others heard it alright. Some were downright annoyed at this gentleman. Why?
I have been dealing with the opening ceremony and rituals for some time. I have taught thousands at UVa, and have run across more than a few fundamentalist Christians who had a big problem bowing to pictures, much less clapping.
After much discussion with those who understood the traditions and the style requirements, I finally decided to come up with my own opening ceremony. It is, in fact, part of the origin of the name of this forum. It has roots in the Harkness table format at Phillips Exeter, as well as a tradition performed at David Finkelstein's dojo. It also gives deference to the old "knights of the round table" concept. Basically we dispense with the pictures and the grand poobah (senior senior) at the front. We get in a big circle. We bow, clap, and bow - to each other, to the teacher, to dead people, to whomever. It's a personal thing. It works. I have found no fundamentalist (yet) who objected.
But that's my thing.
I can understand how individuals can feel strongly about participating in ceremonies with religious overtones. The founders of our constitution had it in mind when they attempted to contruct a division between church and state. Thomas Jefferson had three things put on his tombstone:
* Signer of the declaration of independence,
* Founder of the University of Virginia,
* Author of a bill on religious freedom.
Yes, folks, nothing on there about being the third president of the United States. But along with religious freedom must come freedom from religion. You cannot have one without the other.
.........but...........
There are other issues involved here. There is the issue of the individual meaning of a specific act. Most everyone exchanges gifts at Christmas - even folks who are not Christians. Most everyone says "bless you" when others sneeze - even those who do not believe that evil spirits that can kill you enter the mouth when you open it wide. Most everyone has no objection to the names sanchin, seisan, sanseiryu, and superinpei, even though the names (and others) have Buddhist origins. Clapping in the Shinto religion is nothing more than letting those that you might "honor" know you are there. Yes, it is a tradition invented by the Shintoists. But it is the equivalent of the vernacular Hey, dude! You are just trying to get your dead ancestor's attention. When I explain the ceremony we use in our dojo, I tell everyone what the clapping means, and then tell them that - at this point in time - it is a superstition that has become part of ceremony and tradition. It need not be anything more.
Yes, I understand that not everyone will celebrate Christmas. Yes, I understand how individuals can - in fact - feel strongly about not exhanging gifts on December 25. Fine. I respect that. But I also respect the right of others to practice the tradition of St. Nick. None of us has the right to be an idea Nazi.
So...what exactly is my point? Well if you don't agree with the ceremony in another "dojo", fine. But be classy about it. Be respectful of others who feel differently. Sitting quietly in the back will do just fine, thank you. There's a time and a place to make your personal point.
- Bill
Along those same lines...
During the bowing in with Uechi Kanmei sensei, a certain individual around me made more than a few comments after the ceremony about clapping being a religious Shinto tradition, and how inappropriate it was for others to be doing it. He stated - loud enough for many to hear - that in his dojo he would not allow anyone to clap unless they were practicing Shintoists.
Others heard it alright. Some were downright annoyed at this gentleman. Why?
I have been dealing with the opening ceremony and rituals for some time. I have taught thousands at UVa, and have run across more than a few fundamentalist Christians who had a big problem bowing to pictures, much less clapping.
After much discussion with those who understood the traditions and the style requirements, I finally decided to come up with my own opening ceremony. It is, in fact, part of the origin of the name of this forum. It has roots in the Harkness table format at Phillips Exeter, as well as a tradition performed at David Finkelstein's dojo. It also gives deference to the old "knights of the round table" concept. Basically we dispense with the pictures and the grand poobah (senior senior) at the front. We get in a big circle. We bow, clap, and bow - to each other, to the teacher, to dead people, to whomever. It's a personal thing. It works. I have found no fundamentalist (yet) who objected.
But that's my thing.
I can understand how individuals can feel strongly about participating in ceremonies with religious overtones. The founders of our constitution had it in mind when they attempted to contruct a division between church and state. Thomas Jefferson had three things put on his tombstone:
* Signer of the declaration of independence,
* Founder of the University of Virginia,
* Author of a bill on religious freedom.
Yes, folks, nothing on there about being the third president of the United States. But along with religious freedom must come freedom from religion. You cannot have one without the other.
.........but...........
There are other issues involved here. There is the issue of the individual meaning of a specific act. Most everyone exchanges gifts at Christmas - even folks who are not Christians. Most everyone says "bless you" when others sneeze - even those who do not believe that evil spirits that can kill you enter the mouth when you open it wide. Most everyone has no objection to the names sanchin, seisan, sanseiryu, and superinpei, even though the names (and others) have Buddhist origins. Clapping in the Shinto religion is nothing more than letting those that you might "honor" know you are there. Yes, it is a tradition invented by the Shintoists. But it is the equivalent of the vernacular Hey, dude! You are just trying to get your dead ancestor's attention. When I explain the ceremony we use in our dojo, I tell everyone what the clapping means, and then tell them that - at this point in time - it is a superstition that has become part of ceremony and tradition. It need not be anything more.
Yes, I understand that not everyone will celebrate Christmas. Yes, I understand how individuals can - in fact - feel strongly about not exhanging gifts on December 25. Fine. I respect that. But I also respect the right of others to practice the tradition of St. Nick. None of us has the right to be an idea Nazi.
So...what exactly is my point? Well if you don't agree with the ceremony in another "dojo", fine. But be classy about it. Be respectful of others who feel differently. Sitting quietly in the back will do just fine, thank you. There's a time and a place to make your personal point.
- Bill
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Gene DeMambro
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Bowing from Seiza
Thank you all for your replies. Points well taken.
I guess, for use Western minds, "superstition" is a good analogy to use. But, without some type of religious undertones, would our karate develop the way it did? Now, I am a God fearing Christian and all that, but without the contributions the Buddhist or Shinto devotees, I argue, Budo might not even have been incorporated into our wonderful art.
A note about Jefferson. When he died, Monticello was in disrepair. It was purchased and refurbished to its original splendor by a Jewish family, as a tribute to Jefferson and his wonderful 1st Amendment. But then again, I probably didn't need to give Bill Glasheen any history on TJ that he doesn't already know.
Gene
I guess, for use Western minds, "superstition" is a good analogy to use. But, without some type of religious undertones, would our karate develop the way it did? Now, I am a God fearing Christian and all that, but without the contributions the Buddhist or Shinto devotees, I argue, Budo might not even have been incorporated into our wonderful art.
A note about Jefferson. When he died, Monticello was in disrepair. It was purchased and refurbished to its original splendor by a Jewish family, as a tribute to Jefferson and his wonderful 1st Amendment. But then again, I probably didn't need to give Bill Glasheen any history on TJ that he doesn't already know.
Gene
Bowing from Seiza
In our dojo the Quality of the clap is perceived by several of us to reflect the spirit of the practice. Thus it is essentially what Bill described as the Harkness (round) table format, a conscious appreciation of the group "energy", if you will.
Michael
Michael
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Gary Santaniello
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Bowing from Seiza
To all,
I'm sure that if one wants to look into a deeper meaning or interpration of the "clapping" following the bow, he/she could somehow find some offence to it.
However, it is my uderstanding that "traditionally" both the instructor and students bow to the front of the dojo where Kanbum & Kanmie Uechi's pictures are usually located, followed by a double clap than another bow.Then the instructor would turn to the class where they bow to eachother. (sensei-students)
Some may choose to remain kneeling for this, others may stand.
To be offended by this ritual of respect i feel is ridiculus. A more casual class may choose to just stand and bow only. Thats fine to if thats the dojo's way.
Having been to different dojo's i see some format their own way of begining or ending the katas, although they all basically reflect the same movements.
To look for an answer as to "how" to close the class would be to unify one way. We don't do it in kata or bunkai therefore we can't really do it in that either. Which reflects interpratation.
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Gary S.
I'm sure that if one wants to look into a deeper meaning or interpration of the "clapping" following the bow, he/she could somehow find some offence to it.
However, it is my uderstanding that "traditionally" both the instructor and students bow to the front of the dojo where Kanbum & Kanmie Uechi's pictures are usually located, followed by a double clap than another bow.Then the instructor would turn to the class where they bow to eachother. (sensei-students)
Some may choose to remain kneeling for this, others may stand.
To be offended by this ritual of respect i feel is ridiculus. A more casual class may choose to just stand and bow only. Thats fine to if thats the dojo's way.
Having been to different dojo's i see some format their own way of begining or ending the katas, although they all basically reflect the same movements.
To look for an answer as to "how" to close the class would be to unify one way. We don't do it in kata or bunkai therefore we can't really do it in that either. Which reflects interpratation.
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Gary S.
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Allen M.
Bowing from Seiza
No matter where you go, Gary, someone is going to make something out of nothing and try to turn it into ****!
The world is full of people who try to change organizations for their own selfish self-centered purposes. If one can'r abide by lestablished sound rules and protocol of a long-existing organization, then that is that saying?
Either lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way?
But don't destroy.
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Allen - [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> - <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]
The world is full of people who try to change organizations for their own selfish self-centered purposes. If one can'r abide by lestablished sound rules and protocol of a long-existing organization, then that is that saying?
Either lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way?
But don't destroy.
------------------
Allen - [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> - <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]
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Jake Steinmann
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Bowing from Seiza
Allen,
I'm not sure that bowing at the beginning of class is a truly nessessary component of good martial arts training. One of my Aikido instructors, who is also a moslem, refused to allow us to bow to him...yet he ran a very traditional and formal dojo beyond that.
Perhaps I'm misreading you, but you seem to be suggesting that anyone who doesn't want to go through the bowing procedures found in most oriental martial arts shouldn't bother practicing them.
There are many people out there with a great desire to learn and participate in the art. Should we really exclude them over a five second ritual at the beginning of the class?
I'm not sure that bowing at the beginning of class is a truly nessessary component of good martial arts training. One of my Aikido instructors, who is also a moslem, refused to allow us to bow to him...yet he ran a very traditional and formal dojo beyond that.
Perhaps I'm misreading you, but you seem to be suggesting that anyone who doesn't want to go through the bowing procedures found in most oriental martial arts shouldn't bother practicing them.
There are many people out there with a great desire to learn and participate in the art. Should we really exclude them over a five second ritual at the beginning of the class?
Bowing from Seiza
No doubt about it, Jake, a misreading.
