Breathing

Rick Wilson · Post by **Rick Wilson** » Wed Sep 08, 1999 5:31 am

Okay, things are a bit quiet, so time to bring up something that may be controversial.

For the last year I have really been concentrating on being connected. I watch the Senior Seniors of our style and I see that they are connected. That is where they derive their amazing power. The more I learn about it, and the better that I get at it, the more it impresses me.

Working at camp with Tracey Sensei and his Blue Suit about the only thing I connected well was the elbow. Not so oddly then was that the elbow was the only thing I felt had any real effect on that suit.

While there are different ways to be connected, I feel that it is necessary to generate true power. My idea of starting to train people to hit first with the shoulder, then their elbow and finally their hands, was derived from the principle of being connected.

One of the things to connect is breath. In Uechi Ryu our breathing is very important to our body conditioning (pack breathing). I think for that reason it is taught as a separate entity from movement. Breath, strike, breath, step, breath, block. It teaches the importance of that breathing method and allows the practitioner to focus on just breathing at that moment. But the breath is just a means to pack the air pressure by forcing the diaphragm downwards. This can be maintained even while breathing out – a form of reverse breathing (expanding, or packing, on the exhale even more than on the inhale. Note: David Mott strongly recommends you do NOT do the form of reverse breathing where you compress on the inhale.)
Once reverse breathing is accomplished, and the practitioner reaches a certain level, it is no longer necessary to have the breath separate from movement. At advanced levels we can begin to connect our breath with our movements. Qigung (Chi Kung) accomplishes the same thing, as does most Taiji. And this is not a question of internal or external or upside down. It is a question of being connected. We cannot be fully connected unless our breath is also part of what we are doing.

Breath can affect the movements we are doing. No breath is neutral, breathing in can soften, breathing out harden. Breath is an integral part of movement.

I know that for Uechi practitioners this may sound like heresy (sorry George Sensei) but I am interested in comments.

Rick

David Elkins · Post by **David Elkins** » Wed Sep 08, 1999 8:53 am

Rick-San,

It sounds like you are suggesting that Sensei Mott disapproves of the Taoist breath pattern of draw in upon inhalation and push out on exhalation. Am I understanding correctly? If so, I'm puzzled as I thought that this was the preferred method of martial breath control.

To add my small potatoes 2 cents worth...listen to a professional boxing match. The fighters always exhale upon striking. Usually throught the nose but sometimes very vocally from the mouth.
Personally, I'm much less concerned about the other guy tuning in to my breathing pattern than I am hitting him (hard.)

To join the breath to the rest of what's going on, it seems only logical that you would exhale (just as you do at the terminus of any strenuous movement) upon striking. Additionally, what do we learn to do upon accepting a blow...exhale. It would seem reasonable to push out the middle on both the yin and yang of striking (hitting and being hit.)

One decided advantage I see to the classic Uechi breathing model is that it gives the student and teacher an opportunity to verify that regular breathing is in fact occuring. To assume that would be very inaccurate especially with beginners.

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Good training,
David

T Rose · Post by **T Rose** » Wed Sep 08, 1999 2:42 pm

Watch tennis players and golfers. They breath explodes at the precise moment of maximum effort. They do this naturally. Breathing effects every muscle in your body. Take a deep breath, you can feel your body moving on your feet to compensate for the movement of the breath. Without being able to control your breathing, you cannot control your body. Without controling your body...

David Elkins · Post by **David Elkins** » Wed Sep 08, 1999 9:27 pm

Flash late breaking news.........

Leon Spinks has jumped off a bridge. Well, I think I'll pass this time. Maybe wait until "Tex" Cobb jumps. I'll give it some thought then.

If you breath naturally (sorry, use "I" statements...if I breath naturally, I do exactly what your S-s's recommend, to wit, exhale at right before impact, lock-out, or in the case of my new interest Highland Games events, heave. Relative to the latter, breathing out is always recommended upon heaving.

One thing that I think conditioning accomplishes that we don't discuss very much is enhancing the ability of the body to react instantaneously to being struck. To do what is necessary re: mind, body adjustments to allow you to emerge from the insult.

I was given Sanchin shime by a senior of another style who "tested" the throat. Needless to say I wasn't expecting a shuto to my throat and certainly wasn't prepared for it. When he said "tense" I thought he meant pecs and unfortunately he didn't. Maybe this is a giant leap of logic but I think all the conditioning that I've done allowed me to tense sufficiently upon impact to absorb the blow without real trauma. As it was I had pretty painful swallowing for a week. I don't think that I was visually tracking the strike to allow me to adjust. The initial stimulus that I experienced was the feel of his hand on my throat.

I'm sure that we all have breathless stories like this, but my initiation into the wonderful world of not controling my breathing was being side kicked in the solar plexus by an instructor who had the audacity to adjust his kick in mid delivery when I slyly moved off line of the skip side kick in Dan Kumite #4. Uggghhhh.

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Good training,
David

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Wed Sep 08, 1999 9:42 pm

I have practiced a number of different types of breathing.

* When I boxed, I exhaled with the hit. After all, I was hitting with the flat end of a big marshmellow, and I needed to put as much ooomph into the hit as possible.

* When I did Goju sanchin, I inhaled with the dynamic tension block, and exhaled with the dynamic tension thrust. The resistance provided by my nostrils (inhale) and epiglottis (exhale) matched the internal resistance I put in my movements.

* In Uechi sanchin I was taught to uncouple my breathing from the relaxed-but-focused, open-handed thrusts so as to hide the breathing and free the movement. This uncoupling also helped to create "fast hands" - hand flurries that were not bound to the speed of the breath.

* When I was a teenager and was doing isometrics with The Bullworker (tm), I discovered that holding my breath and straining with maximal effort (Valsalva) caused me to almost black out after ending the 7 second isometric. I needed to continue breathing, separate from the isometric movement.

* Most experienced strength coaches will teach you not to hold the breath and strain (Valsalva) when benching or squatting - for the same reason. Breathe out with the movement, but maintain some resistance to the exhale (with throat) so as to achieve good trunk strength.

* On the other hand, biomedical engineers who worked with fighter pilots taught them that they NEEDED to Valsalva when doing high G turns that made the blood pool in their lower body. Without the Valsalva, they blacked out and the taxpayers lost another multimillion dollar plane. Oh by the way, these days the high tech planes go into autopilot when it sense the pilot has blacked out.

So what's my point? There are several:

1) Breathing is important
2) The way you breath depends on what you are trying to accomplish.

If my goal is to generate an ippon punch that will blow away a padded opponent, well then I probably want to recruit ALL my resources - including the breath - in that thrust.

If my goal is to shove a thumb into a suprasternal notch, gouge the eyes with my fingers, or ring my opponent's lower church bells with my sokusen, why would I need to breathe with the technique? I'm about to do something that will really micturate my opponent off. Speed and stealth are of the essence.

If my goal is to perform a lifting or throwing motion against my opponent, then I ought to consider a resisted exhale that matches the load I am lifting or relocating. A little yelling (like you would do when benching a heavy weight) wouldn't hurt.

So my rule-of-thumb is - optimal breathing is dictated by what you are attempting to accomplish.

- Bill

Mark J Brelsford · Post by **Mark J Brelsford** » Thu Sep 09, 1999 3:54 am

I just stopped in and found this thread interesting, for what it's worth....

In my conversations with Uechi Kanei sensei
his only guidance for breathing in a Uechi Ryu enviroment was very clear and simple.
Breath when you must. Do not breath during the movement, and only during the Sanchin kata should sound be noticable.

With respect to the other postings, it does not get much easier then that.

Mark J Brelsford
YuShu Shubukan

Rick Wilson · Post by **Rick Wilson** » Thu Sep 09, 1999 6:33 am

Many thanks to everyone who has chimed in so far, I hope others add their thoughts.

David, you asked "It sounds like you are suggesting that Sensei Mott disapproves of the Taoist breath pattern of draw in upon inhalation and push out on exhalation. Am I understanding correctly? If so, I'm puzzled as I thought that this was the preferred method of martial breath control."

David Sensei strong advises NOT to draw in upon the inhalation. He DOES push out on the exhalation. He has seen it causes health problems.

Rick

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu Sep 09, 1999 2:35 pm

Mark

Hello, good stranger. Miss you! Thanks for a good example of the KISS principle.

Rick

I have to say that I don't quite understand your language in describing the pulling in and pushing out with inhaling and exhaling. It's contrary to the way breathing actually works.

In a shallow, diaphragmatic breath, the diaphragm moves down in the trunk. This does two things. Primarily it creates negative intrathoracic (inside the chest) pressure, which then causes air to rush in the lungs. It also causes the abdominal volume to increase. It has to unless you want to violate a few laws of physics. Conversely in a diaphragmatic exhale, the diaphragm comes up. This creates positive intrathoracic pressure, which forces the air out of the lungs. It also coincidentally makes the abdominal volume decrease.

The only way you can have the abdominal wall come in on an inhale is to expand the rib cage. Everyone in Uechi agrees this is not a good thing. Ideally you keep the rib cage pulled tight together to protect everything inside; that's sanchin 101. One only involves the chest in breathing when doing a deep, cleansing breath. Conversely you can't really have the abdominal wall go out on an exhale.

One thing you can do is tighten the area just above the solar plexus which might then temporarily shift things down to the lower abdomen. Selectively contracting the muscles above the solar plexus will make the abdominal wall thicker at that point - a good thing. A good belly dancer (I used to have one as a girlfriend) can show you how it's possible to selectively contract and relax various parts of the abdominal wall. But the net abdominal volume will decrease on an exhale.

I know this may seem picky to you, but I think it's important to be exact with language, particularly when describing these phenomena.

- Bill

David Elkins · Post by **David Elkins** » Fri Sep 10, 1999 12:23 am

I want to hear more about the girlfriend!

Seriously, when I were but a wee lad (apologies to J.D. for the plaglarism), and in search of the remedy for sand being kicked in the face I purchased a book (I think through Strength and Health) called Muscle Control. Among other very dramatic examples of same was a photo of someone separating the rectus abdominus so that only one side was in relief. That was pretty impressive. The dialog on this thread also helps me to appreciate why ours is not a cookie cutter style.

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Good training,
David

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Fri Sep 10, 1999 3:18 am

Mark is of course on target with Master Uechi views on breathing! More natural like under the stress of the adrenaline dump!

Even so, I have never seen well-trained Uechi tournament fighters adhere to that principle in matches, especially when getting winded!

Here is more food for thought: When you face a deadly threat, it is the primal brain that controls your bodily functions, insisting on returning to the Stone Age!

Research by Goleman of Emotional intelligence fame, indicates that the neuron bundles in the amygdala, signal cells in the brain stem [primal brain] to slow your breath {you will notice suddenly holding your breath gasping for oxygen when the cocktail hits} all the better to hear more clearly what it is you are fearful of! This is a reflex response, only one part of a wide, carefully coordinated array of changes the amygdala and connected areas orchestrate as they commandeer the brain in a crisis!

The counterpoint here, as voiced by some doctors I have discussed this with, is that if on top of this natural tendency, we train to inculcate the holding of the breath, such as during a strike or restrict breathing through the hissing sounds of our forms, then we will be compounding the problem under severe stress, choking on our feet!

I would like to hear comments by sports doctors or breathing specialists in the medical profession as opposed to martial artists! Anyone out there??

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Van Canna

[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited 09-09-99).]

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Fri Sep 10, 1999 8:25 pm

Van

I'm afraid I don't qualify as someone who isn't a martial artist :-) And I'm not a sports medicine doctor.

I am, however a biomedical engineer. My PhD traininship grant from NIH was to train me as a specialist called a systems physiologist. My dissertation is titled Cardiopulmonary Rhythms. I'd like to share some pieces from my dissertation research.

First of all, I agree that it's not wise to restrict breathing when doing extended exertion. But as a matter of course, this is rarely a problem. One of the consequences of "the chemical dump" you often refer to is dilation of the airways. Basically nature takes care of this. The only problem some have when they panic is that they tend to hyperventillate.

In my dissertation, I was attempting to look at natural rhythms that occured in various physiologic signals (heart-rate, arterial pressure, venous pressure, peripheral blood flow, respiratory rate, tidal volume) under states of rest and stress. I was digitally sampling these physiologic signals and doing something called a fourier transform that converted the signal to the frequency domain. Here I could see cyclic patterns in the signal, such as the waxing and waning of the heart-rate with respiration. I could quantify the magnitude and frequency of the rhythms, and test whether or not the magnitude of these signals was a good index of the patency of the autonomic nervous system. The goal was to develop an early warning system for the onset of diabetic autonomic neuropathy. I was also interested in the interaction of the various physiologic control systems under rest and stress.

One of the things we were looking at is how certain heart-rate rhythms disappeared under parasympathetic block. This is the equivalent of the chemical dump that happens under stress. Basically it allows the fight-or-flight reflex to go totally unchecked. The physiologic model, by the way, was instrumented dogs. I performed this parasympathetic block both at rest, and when the dog was running on a treadmill. All our measurements lasted about 20 minutes.

A paradoxical thing happened, which makes sense when you think about it. The dogs that were at rest had a much higher heart-rate, respiratory activity, etc than the same dogs that were experiencing moderate exercise. Without the chemical intervention (normal conditions), the exact opposite was the case.

Sooo...why did I bring this up? I always have a problem with "experts" who speak of extreme cases and anecdotes when describing what happens to people under various conditions. It varies from subject to subject, and condition to condition. To me, these results basically tell us that if you do something, you are more likely to not get out of control. If you are programmed to respond in some way, you are more likely to not panic. If you freeze, you are likely to fall apart.

From my personal experience, I can vouch for that. I seemed perfectly in control all the way through one recent encounter with an individual that I accosted who was removing the stereo from my car. I kept control of him (with some help from one other individual) for 15 minutes or so until the police came. We had a purpose in mind, and we did what we felt was necessary to do.

The second the police showed up and we stopped "doing something", BOTH OF US started to shake from stem to stern. It was remarkable. We went from being in control and having a purpose to falling apart physiologically. At the same time.

It's sort of like revving the engine of a car. If the car is in gear, you are fine. If the car is in neutral, you can destroy the engine.

Food for thought.

- Bill

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sat Sep 11, 1999 1:04 am

Hyperventilation {rapid breathing} is a stress response that feels like you are choking!
I have said previously that not all people respond the same under the stress impulse! You may well be a notable exception, we have discussed this before! But real world lethal confrontations studies show that most people will respond in a predictable pattern especially if faced with perceived impending death; the brain knows!

Yes we agree that action disperses the “butterflies,” but in some instances the brain knows that action may mean death, such as facing a gun pointed at you at ten feet; so what do you do then for breath control lest you go to hyper vigilance which closely associates to hyperventilation?

“ Numerous studies clearly indicate that that voluntary changes in breathing patterns can modify one’s ability to cope with pain and with the threatening fear provoking situations. The two key components of voluntary breath control are 1] belly breathing 2] respiration cycle!

Respiration cycle: inhale for three seconds- hold for three seconds-control exhale for three seconds! Repeat for three cycles and the heart rate lowers, perceptual and cognitive tasks become more acute and motor performance will increase! “{ Where do you find the time for this in an explosive street fight ?}

Siddle says that ancient philosophy and martial arts texts abound with advise relating to breath control and combat performance! But today scientists are beginning to unveil many of the secrets of breath control!

How do you figure Uechi breathing relates to this? And do you think your body will let you do Uechi breathing under the impending beating of your life by ten street toughs who just cut you off in an alley?

References: [ Siddle] - Janis, De Fares, Grossman, 1983!

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Van Canna

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sat Sep 11, 1999 10:18 pm

Here is the typical martial artist; ~~ in the back of his mind he deludes himself by thinking “ I won’t choke, I won’t be afraid, I know what I am doing here. If I can out spar anyone in the dojo and break boards, and I have been studying the system for long years under Master X, the real thing, you know, and I am a high Dan black belt, what chances does the guy in the street who has never had a lesson in his life have~~ [Quinn]

So who is the guy in the street! Subconsciously we know that most decent people do not attack one another, but that the ones that do are tough guys who have done it before, enjoy doing it, and have the potential for hurting us real bad!

When it happens, there will be malevolent intent and foul language with stand up aggression!

So the martial artist in debriefing will tell you “ I couldn’t believe it was happening, but the first thing I realized was that I wasn’t breathing anymore”

And so Quinn says that the “guy in the street” has a much better chance than you think!

Care to guess why?

One of the reasons is "that people, including martial artists, do choke up, but they don’t believe it or deny it, but until they physically experience that, until they feel their knees shake, until they realize they can’t talk or breathe, it is not real to them and therefore it’s not a real problem. Yet, it is the problem in real world self defense." [ Quinn ]

Drill instructions “ your only job is to remember to breathe”!

What is the counterpoint! How do we argue the supremacy of Uechi breathing here??

Genjumin-san, care to comment on breathing concepts as you learned them from your Okinawan sensei?

References: Peyton Quinn

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Van Canna

[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited 09-11-99).]

Hutch · Post by **Hutch** » Sun Sep 12, 1999 6:01 pm

Rick Wilson began this "breathing" thread by addressing his desire to feel "connected" when he executed technique. I would like to return to that specific issue for a moment and recount my own understanding about the purpose of "Uechi breathing". This understanding is drawn from my interpretation of the teachings of Sensei Mott (directly from him and one of his senior students) and what my body has taught me in my admittedly brief training career.

Sanchin kata, as an "exercise" is practiced (at least in part) to train our bodies, minds and spirits to develop maximum power in striking and defending. The "connectivity" Rick Wilson seeks is possible only when you achieve optimal alignment of your body from the ground to object being struck. (This alignment is not the only condition to successful delivery of power, but it is an essential element.) One of the ways to develop this alignment on a consistent basis is to utilize abdominal breathing. You cannot comfortably practice abdominal breathing without utlizing the "tucked" pelvis. This tucked position aligns the spine, hips and legs in such a way that the connection between the floor and the object being struck is stronger. We all know this by time we test for Shodan (assuming our Sensei is on the job). On a one dimensional level then, "Uechi breathing" is present in Sanchin kata (exercise) to promote the pelvic tuck and hence the connectivity so critical to powerful strikes and blocks.

Eventually this "tuck" becomes habitual and that is why we are not instructed to illustrate it in later kata. We are instructed to breath "naturally" It is assumed we have already developed the primary benefit of the "tuck" from the thousands of Sanchin repetitons we have done over the years. It is now habitual and hopefully present in all our kata and kumite technique (at least that is the goal). When I am trying to sharpen my various kata and find myself losing this critical tuck, I will consciously invoke "Sanchin" breathing to help re-establish that tuck.

Sensei Van Canna reminds us that in times of the "chemical dump" we experience in threatening situations, we are going to revert to involuntary breathing patterns dictated by autonomic responses. I don't think Master Uechi or his teachers ever imagined it would be otherwise; what they probably hoped to achieve was an habitual response in terms of stance that would give their students a stronger defensive/offensive posture.

There are, of course, other "dimensions" to Sanchin breathing, but the above strikes me as the most useful and primary purpose. I realize I am probably preaching to the choir, and I apologize in advance to those who have been forced to endure my simplistic ramblings.

Peace to all
Hutch

genjumin · Post by **genjumin** » Sun Sep 12, 1999 10:53 pm

Van Canna Sensei asks:'Genjumin San, care to comment on breathing concepts as you learned them from yor Okinawan Sensei?'

Yes, Sir-quite simply, the more natural the better.

In Okinawan Kenpo you exhale hrough the mouth when you focus, when you strike and when you are struck, the latter being done with a kiai.

In Matsubayashiryu, you breathe very naturally, and exhale through the nose or mouth as you focus in basics only.Rest of the time, breathing is natural, circular(no full inhale or exhale or breath holding on purpose in combat).If someone tries to hit you, you block and move out of the way.

Much different than in the Goju version of Sanchin or Tensho, which I also dd for a long time.

In T'ai Chi, we were taught to exhale on the expansive moves, inhale on the contractive moves.This is for ch'i gung practice, not necessarily combat.

The most protective breathing was the Kenpo breathing, the most useful in actual situations the Shorin Ryu breathing.

More natural,, the better, just never breathe all the way out or all the way in, in combat.

Hope this helps.

John Versteeg