I've been cross training in jiu-jitsu and read someone's comment that sanchin stance is the best Uechi defense against grapplers. I asked one of the advanced students to help test this theory. Both times I went down.
First time I held him off for close to minute. I could probably have pulled off two good elbow strikes to the head, a bushkin to the throat, and a modified seisan bunkai knee strike (both hands were wrapped behind his neck with nothing blocking the knee). The topic of debate being whether those would have been enough to stop him.
The second time he distracted me with the trademark Gracie clap and was in and had me down in seconds.
So, I'm down on the ground both times. Now what? Assuming the opponent is going to go to the mounted position. What Uechi techniques lend themselves to grappling?
-Josh
Uechi vs. Grappling
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Bill Glasheen
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- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Uechi vs. Grappling
Josh
In the end, the better-skilled fighter wins.
Sanchin has advantages. Proper sanchin training teaches you to stay in contact with your center; the grappler wants to break your center. Proper sanchin teaches you not to place too much weight on that front leg; the grappler will attack that front leg. Shallow stances are more mobile than deep stances; the grappler wants something or someone to grip on to.
You can't stand like a granite statue in sanchin (like the way most people expect to be tested) and stay on your feet for very long against any grappler. You need to develop sensitivity and you need to be able to move. You need to understand their attacks. You need to not forget your defenses, and remember that the best defense is a good offense. Don't forget that when it's no holds barred, you may knee him in the face, stick fingers where you wish, elbow, stomp on feet, etc.
And you need to make the floor your friend. It's not so terrible. But don't willingly go down there when facing multiple opponents.
My personal experience is that when I face someone with equal time in the arts, I can resist what the grappler or thrower wants to do, or not be there in the first place.
Again, (s)he who has the best skills wins in the end.
- Bill
In the end, the better-skilled fighter wins.
Sanchin has advantages. Proper sanchin training teaches you to stay in contact with your center; the grappler wants to break your center. Proper sanchin teaches you not to place too much weight on that front leg; the grappler will attack that front leg. Shallow stances are more mobile than deep stances; the grappler wants something or someone to grip on to.
You can't stand like a granite statue in sanchin (like the way most people expect to be tested) and stay on your feet for very long against any grappler. You need to develop sensitivity and you need to be able to move. You need to understand their attacks. You need to not forget your defenses, and remember that the best defense is a good offense. Don't forget that when it's no holds barred, you may knee him in the face, stick fingers where you wish, elbow, stomp on feet, etc.
And you need to make the floor your friend. It's not so terrible. But don't willingly go down there when facing multiple opponents.
My personal experience is that when I face someone with equal time in the arts, I can resist what the grappler or thrower wants to do, or not be there in the first place.
Again, (s)he who has the best skills wins in the end.
- Bill
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Uechi vs. Grappling
Josh
I forgot one more detail. Know your enemy. Do exactly what you are doing. Study with these folks and learn their art. Learn to see their art through your own martial perspective. You'll never view you Uechi quite the same way again.
When you think you've gotten somewhere, come visit us. Tony (our man mountain) just got his brown belt. He did three takedowns (maybe more) in his sparring match. He actually set up a sleeper hold on one of them. On his last throw, he "fell" when his opponent grabbed his front kick, and baited his partner to finish him off. Big mistake! And nobody got hurt! Credit his partner for fine ukemi skills. They were a joy to watch.
Obviously Judo and Uechi are another fine mix!
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 10-12-99).]
I forgot one more detail. Know your enemy. Do exactly what you are doing. Study with these folks and learn their art. Learn to see their art through your own martial perspective. You'll never view you Uechi quite the same way again.
When you think you've gotten somewhere, come visit us. Tony (our man mountain) just got his brown belt. He did three takedowns (maybe more) in his sparring match. He actually set up a sleeper hold on one of them. On his last throw, he "fell" when his opponent grabbed his front kick, and baited his partner to finish him off. Big mistake! And nobody got hurt! Credit his partner for fine ukemi skills. They were a joy to watch.
Obviously Judo and Uechi are another fine mix!
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 10-12-99).]
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Gary Santaniello
- Posts: 288
- Joined: Thu May 06, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Randolph Ma USA
Uechi vs. Grappling
Bill said;
"In the end the better-skilled fighter wins".
I agree completely !
Many practicioners of all styles feel that "their" style is the best of all and somehow is superior to other systems without really knowing "anything" about other systems.
Certainly one should have convidence in what they study/teach however, do not think that standing in sanchin will keep a 200lb + pissed off individual with experience in jujitsu/grappling/judo or whatever from being capable of taking you down.
Basic takedowns, throws, sweeps and locks are not taught in our fundementals of uechiryu. It is an area that we must expand upon within ourselves through open mindedness. Though some will get defensive and not agree, others who understand will.
Uechiryu does provide an excellent foundation for a strong stance on the feet. However, on the ground it is another story.
Master one style, know about others !
Bill, you obviously are open minded by your responce. I met you once at this last summer camp. Did not get the opportunity to participate in your seminar whereas i was only there for one day. Next year i plan on two days.Look foward to your input both on the forums and at next years camp.
------------------
Gary S.
"In the end the better-skilled fighter wins".
I agree completely !
Many practicioners of all styles feel that "their" style is the best of all and somehow is superior to other systems without really knowing "anything" about other systems.
Certainly one should have convidence in what they study/teach however, do not think that standing in sanchin will keep a 200lb + pissed off individual with experience in jujitsu/grappling/judo or whatever from being capable of taking you down.
Basic takedowns, throws, sweeps and locks are not taught in our fundementals of uechiryu. It is an area that we must expand upon within ourselves through open mindedness. Though some will get defensive and not agree, others who understand will.
Uechiryu does provide an excellent foundation for a strong stance on the feet. However, on the ground it is another story.
Master one style, know about others !
Bill, you obviously are open minded by your responce. I met you once at this last summer camp. Did not get the opportunity to participate in your seminar whereas i was only there for one day. Next year i plan on two days.Look foward to your input both on the forums and at next years camp.
------------------
Gary S.
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Rick Wilson
Uechi vs. Grappling
Josh:
Bill is right on two counts:
1) Whoever is better at what they do will win.
2) Sanchin cannot be rigid. In fact the rear knee of Sanchin is very easy to collapse in a double leg take down, so just standing strong in Sanchin will get you to the ground very quickly. I have proven this to many Uechi people. You must take their power away and, as Bill said, be sensitive and move. A while back I posted why I felt that Seisan is an anti-grappling kata. I hope no one will mind if I re-post it here for Josh. I do repeat, that the better fighter will win the takedown war. I will also say that if you are not prepared for takedowns then they will take you by surprise. At the Summer camp a Senior did a session on anti-grappling and gave an excellent piece of advise that, if you have locked eyes and they drop breaking contact -- he is shooting. A good little piece of advice. Here are my comments on Seisan. I also feel that uechi can be used effectively to strike on the ground, but that is another post.
While every kata can have many interpretation depending on what you are looking for in it, I have found Seisan to be an anti-grappling kata. The grappler cannot be successful unless they can initiate the clinch. Once they clinch they are confident that they can take you down and finish you on the ground.
Ground fighting is a different story and a different article. What I would like to focus on now is how Seisan prevents the clinch. Having a small grappling background (nothing like many who contribute to these forums), I have always worked on takedowns and ground fighting. The success of Brazilian Jujitsu only emphasized that interest. It also began my study of how those guys make it to the clinch and how can it be stopped.
Before I begin, I would like to state that nothing is 100% successful, so there is still an element of timing etc. in all of these that remains your personal responsibility.
The manner of takedown from the front becomes irrelevant if they cannot clinch. Therefore we must prevent the clinch. From the front there are four level at which the aggressor can close in on you: High, middle, low and very low. We break out the moves of Seisan that deal with each of these levels.
HIGH: The aggressor is moving in and going to perhaps pin your arms to your side in a bear hug like manoeuvre, and use a leg hook to trip you over.
1) The three consecutive heel palm strikes are excellent to work against this clinch. They sweep up just in case the aggressor decides to drop low he will still run into the strike as it rises. They continue one after another driving the aggressor back away from you, much like a JKD straight blast.
2) The tradition double finger jab (heel palm) that follows the three heel palms is another good quick response to a grab. It can be done even when your hands are caught down at your side. Again, the strike sweeps up in a manner that would intercept the aggressor should he change tactics and go for a lower takedown.
3) If the aggressor does catch you by surprise and get in too close for these two techniques, then the forward crane strike is the next technique. Here I interpret the circle block that follows these strikes differently. The crane strike to the groin should, at minimum, force the aggressor to pull their hips back away from the strike (if they don’t -- bonus). This creates a small space between you and them. Swing the circle block up through that space not as a block but as a strike up under the jaw of the aggressor.
4) One of the ways to prevent the aggressor from pulling in close to you after they close is to place your hands on their hips and your elbows on your hip, thus bracing them away from you. This position can be gotten into with the double finger strike to the groin area. Swinging them to one side can off balance them for the elbow strike that follows in the kata.
5) For the charging aggressor, meet them with the Seisan elbow strike in the leaning stance. This should stop the rush and fold them over to allow for the follow up strikes that follow this move right in the kata.
MIDDLE: This is where they generally wrap their arms around your waist and use a leg hook to trip you over, or a body drop.
Middle take downs are usually initiated when the defender throws a punch. Most often the palm is facing down and it is directed at the aggressor’s head. Scenario: the aggressor charges in. The defender throws the punch at what appears to be an open target -- the head. Problem, the punch is thrown to where a striker would come to strike, the grappler drops under the strike and keeps coming in -- distance closed, the clinch is on.
1) The solution is to throw a lead hand that is quickly followed by a strike with the palm facing up. This strike comes upwards and catches the grappler as they drop down. Ever wonder why Seisan had so many nukite strikes in it? These are the very strikes required to stop that middle level clinch. You can use a fist as opposed to straight fingers.
2) For the grappler that is charging in for the middle level clinch (too low for the elbow strike) step off to the side misdirecting them with a circle block and hammer fist them to the back of the head at the base of the skull as they pass.
LOW: This the famous double or single leg takedown. Which by the way works fantastic against a person standing in Sanchin “if” they get in properly.
Now, Seisan has the defense that is shown in most bunkai, but I modify that somewhat. First of all, grapplers expect that knee to be brought up, so sweeping them down into the rising knee tends only to give them the leg for the takedown. I do not recommend it.
1) Do not use the hand to sweep the aggressor into the knee. The hand drives across to move the head slightly aside which takes the aggressor’s back and shoulder muscles out of the takedown making them MUCH weaker. This will do well as long as you also move to off angle the original attack. Quickly follow with a shoken the side of the neck.
2) Here is where I do something different. I use the drop into a Uechi Stance (modified horse stance) and the double heel palm strike from Konchin or Sanseirui. I have the leg that is opposite the direction of the attack go back into the stance for a brace. I bring one hand across (like in Seisan) but I have the fingers pointing down. The other hand drives a heel palm strike directly to the top of the head. (Be very careful with this strike it can really shock the brain and damage the neck.) Then, back to Seisan as I step forward as I rotate my hands up and forward (and therefore rotate the aggressor’s head) -- basically the move right before the jump back. From here finish at your leisure. Be very careful with the neck on this one.
VERY LOW: This is where the aggressor dives for your ankle to hook your heel and drive you over with their shoulder.
Simple, do the jump back. This takes you up and out of their grasp. It also leaves them sprawled out on the ground in front of you. Then JUMP BACK WITH A GOOD SOLID LANDING RIGHT ON THEM.
Well there is a little look at what I think about Seisan. Many other purposes for those moves I know but to me it is the ultimate anti-grappling Kata. For all those out there who dislike some of the traditional bunkai uses, try a few of these out for fun.
Rick
Bill is right on two counts:
1) Whoever is better at what they do will win.
2) Sanchin cannot be rigid. In fact the rear knee of Sanchin is very easy to collapse in a double leg take down, so just standing strong in Sanchin will get you to the ground very quickly. I have proven this to many Uechi people. You must take their power away and, as Bill said, be sensitive and move. A while back I posted why I felt that Seisan is an anti-grappling kata. I hope no one will mind if I re-post it here for Josh. I do repeat, that the better fighter will win the takedown war. I will also say that if you are not prepared for takedowns then they will take you by surprise. At the Summer camp a Senior did a session on anti-grappling and gave an excellent piece of advise that, if you have locked eyes and they drop breaking contact -- he is shooting. A good little piece of advice. Here are my comments on Seisan. I also feel that uechi can be used effectively to strike on the ground, but that is another post.
While every kata can have many interpretation depending on what you are looking for in it, I have found Seisan to be an anti-grappling kata. The grappler cannot be successful unless they can initiate the clinch. Once they clinch they are confident that they can take you down and finish you on the ground.
Ground fighting is a different story and a different article. What I would like to focus on now is how Seisan prevents the clinch. Having a small grappling background (nothing like many who contribute to these forums), I have always worked on takedowns and ground fighting. The success of Brazilian Jujitsu only emphasized that interest. It also began my study of how those guys make it to the clinch and how can it be stopped.
Before I begin, I would like to state that nothing is 100% successful, so there is still an element of timing etc. in all of these that remains your personal responsibility.
The manner of takedown from the front becomes irrelevant if they cannot clinch. Therefore we must prevent the clinch. From the front there are four level at which the aggressor can close in on you: High, middle, low and very low. We break out the moves of Seisan that deal with each of these levels.
HIGH: The aggressor is moving in and going to perhaps pin your arms to your side in a bear hug like manoeuvre, and use a leg hook to trip you over.
1) The three consecutive heel palm strikes are excellent to work against this clinch. They sweep up just in case the aggressor decides to drop low he will still run into the strike as it rises. They continue one after another driving the aggressor back away from you, much like a JKD straight blast.
2) The tradition double finger jab (heel palm) that follows the three heel palms is another good quick response to a grab. It can be done even when your hands are caught down at your side. Again, the strike sweeps up in a manner that would intercept the aggressor should he change tactics and go for a lower takedown.
3) If the aggressor does catch you by surprise and get in too close for these two techniques, then the forward crane strike is the next technique. Here I interpret the circle block that follows these strikes differently. The crane strike to the groin should, at minimum, force the aggressor to pull their hips back away from the strike (if they don’t -- bonus). This creates a small space between you and them. Swing the circle block up through that space not as a block but as a strike up under the jaw of the aggressor.
4) One of the ways to prevent the aggressor from pulling in close to you after they close is to place your hands on their hips and your elbows on your hip, thus bracing them away from you. This position can be gotten into with the double finger strike to the groin area. Swinging them to one side can off balance them for the elbow strike that follows in the kata.
5) For the charging aggressor, meet them with the Seisan elbow strike in the leaning stance. This should stop the rush and fold them over to allow for the follow up strikes that follow this move right in the kata.
MIDDLE: This is where they generally wrap their arms around your waist and use a leg hook to trip you over, or a body drop.
Middle take downs are usually initiated when the defender throws a punch. Most often the palm is facing down and it is directed at the aggressor’s head. Scenario: the aggressor charges in. The defender throws the punch at what appears to be an open target -- the head. Problem, the punch is thrown to where a striker would come to strike, the grappler drops under the strike and keeps coming in -- distance closed, the clinch is on.
1) The solution is to throw a lead hand that is quickly followed by a strike with the palm facing up. This strike comes upwards and catches the grappler as they drop down. Ever wonder why Seisan had so many nukite strikes in it? These are the very strikes required to stop that middle level clinch. You can use a fist as opposed to straight fingers.
2) For the grappler that is charging in for the middle level clinch (too low for the elbow strike) step off to the side misdirecting them with a circle block and hammer fist them to the back of the head at the base of the skull as they pass.
LOW: This the famous double or single leg takedown. Which by the way works fantastic against a person standing in Sanchin “if” they get in properly.
Now, Seisan has the defense that is shown in most bunkai, but I modify that somewhat. First of all, grapplers expect that knee to be brought up, so sweeping them down into the rising knee tends only to give them the leg for the takedown. I do not recommend it.
1) Do not use the hand to sweep the aggressor into the knee. The hand drives across to move the head slightly aside which takes the aggressor’s back and shoulder muscles out of the takedown making them MUCH weaker. This will do well as long as you also move to off angle the original attack. Quickly follow with a shoken the side of the neck.
2) Here is where I do something different. I use the drop into a Uechi Stance (modified horse stance) and the double heel palm strike from Konchin or Sanseirui. I have the leg that is opposite the direction of the attack go back into the stance for a brace. I bring one hand across (like in Seisan) but I have the fingers pointing down. The other hand drives a heel palm strike directly to the top of the head. (Be very careful with this strike it can really shock the brain and damage the neck.) Then, back to Seisan as I step forward as I rotate my hands up and forward (and therefore rotate the aggressor’s head) -- basically the move right before the jump back. From here finish at your leisure. Be very careful with the neck on this one.
VERY LOW: This is where the aggressor dives for your ankle to hook your heel and drive you over with their shoulder.
Simple, do the jump back. This takes you up and out of their grasp. It also leaves them sprawled out on the ground in front of you. Then JUMP BACK WITH A GOOD SOLID LANDING RIGHT ON THEM.
Well there is a little look at what I think about Seisan. Many other purposes for those moves I know but to me it is the ultimate anti-grappling Kata. For all those out there who dislike some of the traditional bunkai uses, try a few of these out for fun.
Rick
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Joseph Bellone
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Mon Sep 13, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: MA, USA
Uechi vs. Grappling
Hi Jajima,
Let me share some of my Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu experiences with you with regards to leg and arm positioning in a grappling situation. Let me first state the the above advice you received is very good.
When someone is shooting in on you (say like a double leg) one of the better things you can do with your lower body is get your legs inside your opponents as he's taking you down. This movement of getting your legs inside your opponents is sometimes referred to as getting your "hooks" in. You then want to get your lower body underneath your opponent as best you can, and go with his forward momentum. Because your legs are on the inside of his you can easily manipulate his lower body and "roll" or throw him. Judo has a sacrifice throw that's very similar, it's Sumi-Gaeshi.
Good grappling, just like good striking, has to adhere to certain principles. Your elbows, just like in Sanchin, are really important, for example. If you let them "float around" you're doomed. Guys will do "duckunders" or setup arm drags. That's why keeping those elbows under control and using them as an effective fulcrum is imperative. Your stance has to be alive. If you practice Sanchin Kata as if your legs are just to stand on, well, that's not going to help you in the long run. Your strikes will not receive the benefit of your lower body. Your legs (stance) have to be alive in a grappling situation also. As the good doctor stated, "you don't walk down the street in Sanchin." too many people would point and snicker.
The Sanchin stance is a good starting point. It's good for you, because it's something familiar. It's also good, because it teaches correct principles of balance, posture, etc. These things are the same as like when you fight standup striking. But, you have to constantly adjust and adhere to the given situation (just like standup), otherwise you'll be taken down really easily.
Good luck with your training,
Joe
Let me share some of my Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu experiences with you with regards to leg and arm positioning in a grappling situation. Let me first state the the above advice you received is very good.
When someone is shooting in on you (say like a double leg) one of the better things you can do with your lower body is get your legs inside your opponents as he's taking you down. This movement of getting your legs inside your opponents is sometimes referred to as getting your "hooks" in. You then want to get your lower body underneath your opponent as best you can, and go with his forward momentum. Because your legs are on the inside of his you can easily manipulate his lower body and "roll" or throw him. Judo has a sacrifice throw that's very similar, it's Sumi-Gaeshi.
Good grappling, just like good striking, has to adhere to certain principles. Your elbows, just like in Sanchin, are really important, for example. If you let them "float around" you're doomed. Guys will do "duckunders" or setup arm drags. That's why keeping those elbows under control and using them as an effective fulcrum is imperative. Your stance has to be alive. If you practice Sanchin Kata as if your legs are just to stand on, well, that's not going to help you in the long run. Your strikes will not receive the benefit of your lower body. Your legs (stance) have to be alive in a grappling situation also. As the good doctor stated, "you don't walk down the street in Sanchin." too many people would point and snicker.
The Sanchin stance is a good starting point. It's good for you, because it's something familiar. It's also good, because it teaches correct principles of balance, posture, etc. These things are the same as like when you fight standup striking. But, you have to constantly adjust and adhere to the given situation (just like standup), otherwise you'll be taken down really easily.
Good luck with your training,
Joe
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Tim Ahearn
- Posts: 162
- Joined: Thu Aug 26, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Charlottesville, VA, USA
- Contact:
Uechi vs. Grappling
Bill,
Now that Tony has his brown belt and will start work on Seisan Bunkai, who will perform that throw with him?
I volunteer Alison.
Tim
Now that Tony has his brown belt and will start work on Seisan Bunkai, who will perform that throw with him?
I volunteer Alison.
Tim
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Uechi vs. Grappling
Tim
And Alison would be crazy enough to try. I like that!
Turning 300+ pounds from spastic beginner to coordinated training partner has been a challenge, to say the least. God bless Rich for starting him on dan kumite. My role of getting the kinks out was not without event.
When I do that very same technique with little kids or people with bad posture, I have them set up and that's it. On the other hand, I have a few little guys that I trust and let them have at me. Tony is often the acid test for whether or not a throw works.
Don't get me wrong, he's a great partner now. He's my favorite for kotekitae and ashikitae. When you hit a special spot on him, those pupils dilate and then a smile comes across his face. However I occasionally need to adjust the volume.
- Bill
And Alison would be crazy enough to try. I like that!
Turning 300+ pounds from spastic beginner to coordinated training partner has been a challenge, to say the least. God bless Rich for starting him on dan kumite. My role of getting the kinks out was not without event.
When I do that very same technique with little kids or people with bad posture, I have them set up and that's it. On the other hand, I have a few little guys that I trust and let them have at me. Tony is often the acid test for whether or not a throw works.
Don't get me wrong, he's a great partner now. He's my favorite for kotekitae and ashikitae. When you hit a special spot on him, those pupils dilate and then a smile comes across his face. However I occasionally need to adjust the volume.
- Bill
