The "chemical cocktail" concept turns on a lightbulb for me. I train in Okinawan Kempo and we stress kyusho and grappling. When my sensei and I free spar with grappling we find most of our elegant finger locks and wrist locks become ineffective. The intensity of the moment makes it hard to apply them and they just don't hurt as much when I'm pumped.
UFC illustrated this to us also. "It all comes down to basics."
Scaramouche's comment on stances was interesting. I have been taught that no stance is static and may exist in its purity for only an instant. I submit that if one were to watch even UFC frame by frame some pretty good approximations of traditional stances might become apparent.
We practice our kihon (basics) to train our bodies and subconcosciousnesses such that reactions will tend toward the advantageous and effective. Both kihon and kata if practiced "5000 times" or more in as perfect a manner possible will train one's neural pathways. Thus, even the "chemical cocktail" will not corrupt one's basic training. You may be hurt, you may not execute a textbook technique, and you will probably want to vomit once the encounter is over, but Karate is about Life, and you will still be alive.
The "real time" is not in a ring against another trained fighter, it is unexpected, probably unrehearsed, inspite of our best efforts, and damned scary, if you stopped to think, but your diligent meticulous training will save your life.
UFC III - Lessons learned
Moderator: Available
-
Ted Dinwiddie
- Posts: 537
- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Charlottesville,VA,USA
UFC III - Lessons learned
T Rose wrote:
*****************************************
Can I grapple with someone like Steve? Nope... Can I work with him from start to ground ? Yup.. and have fun too...
*****************************************
Sensei Rose - just the thought of having to face you on the mat or dojo floor has inspired me to create my own new martial arts style - GAZELLE!
Regards, Steve
------------------
D. Steven White
swhite@umassd.edu
*****************************************
Can I grapple with someone like Steve? Nope... Can I work with him from start to ground ? Yup.. and have fun too...
*****************************************
Sensei Rose - just the thought of having to face you on the mat or dojo floor has inspired me to create my own new martial arts style - GAZELLE!
Regards, Steve
------------------
D. Steven White
swhite@umassd.edu
UFC III - Lessons learned
“Thus, even the "chemical cocktail" will not corrupt one's basic training. You may be hurt, you may not execute a textbook technique, and you will probably want to vomit once the encounter is over” [Ted Dinwiddie]
Excellent point! Again it is essential to understand that nature programmed a tremendous burst of strength in the cocktail for “ fight or flight”, because when it comes down to it, that is what will work, power/strength, and lots of it along with your basic gross motor techniques!
Lets be honest…Lots of martial artists [read us] really like to believe they can end a vicious attack with some fancy move or pressure point strike without messing up their hair! The fancy moves will not work and the pressure points, if they can be targeted at all on a fast and furious opponent, will need lots of power back up!
The necessary “survival strength” comes to you in short bursts from the “ cocktail” and it sustains/augments itself through your body “ mechanism”; the mechanics of powerful simple response action techniques you have cultivated in your training! The power of the cocktail needs a delivery vehicle to impact upon the target!
If you fail to train very intensely in all components of your system emphasizing the discharge of shocking power in your movements, along with some realistic conditioning, then you will not program a winning response no matter how you delude yourself!
------------------
Van Canna
Excellent point! Again it is essential to understand that nature programmed a tremendous burst of strength in the cocktail for “ fight or flight”, because when it comes down to it, that is what will work, power/strength, and lots of it along with your basic gross motor techniques!
Lets be honest…Lots of martial artists [read us] really like to believe they can end a vicious attack with some fancy move or pressure point strike without messing up their hair! The fancy moves will not work and the pressure points, if they can be targeted at all on a fast and furious opponent, will need lots of power back up!
The necessary “survival strength” comes to you in short bursts from the “ cocktail” and it sustains/augments itself through your body “ mechanism”; the mechanics of powerful simple response action techniques you have cultivated in your training! The power of the cocktail needs a delivery vehicle to impact upon the target!
If you fail to train very intensely in all components of your system emphasizing the discharge of shocking power in your movements, along with some realistic conditioning, then you will not program a winning response no matter how you delude yourself!
------------------
Van Canna
-
Scaramouche
- Posts: 100
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: LA, CA, USA
UFC III - Lessons learned
Bill Glasheen,
thank you for the comparison between Uechi and Muay Thai. I found it quite interesting.
Scarmouche
thank you for the comparison between Uechi and Muay Thai. I found it quite interesting.
Scarmouche
-
Collin Warder
- Posts: 123
- Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 6:01 am
UFC III - Lessons learned
Ted:
"When my sensei and I free spar with grappling we find most of our elegant finger locks and wrist locks become ineffective."
Its funny how often I hear this, but how true it is! Any decent joint-locker will tell you that, and as you are well aware, finger and wrist locks are not intended for full-bore fighting situations. They are meant to be applied in SUPRISE to control an opponent before the situation escalates. To apply such locks requiring increadible manual dexterity in the heat of battle is simply unrealistic.
That said, elbow and shoulder controls work wonderful in a "real" fight because they require much less manual dexterity. Rather than directly grabbing the joint you are intending to lock, you are able to grab the arm, hold on to it, and work your way down to the joint. Much less room for error with this method. Such locks also force you to get up close and personal with your attacker, therebye forcing you do adopt the offensive mindset so critical to survival.
Evan Sensei:
Please elaborate on Turning Style Wing Chun. I am not familiar with it, but it sounds very interesting.
-Collin
"When my sensei and I free spar with grappling we find most of our elegant finger locks and wrist locks become ineffective."
Its funny how often I hear this, but how true it is! Any decent joint-locker will tell you that, and as you are well aware, finger and wrist locks are not intended for full-bore fighting situations. They are meant to be applied in SUPRISE to control an opponent before the situation escalates. To apply such locks requiring increadible manual dexterity in the heat of battle is simply unrealistic.
That said, elbow and shoulder controls work wonderful in a "real" fight because they require much less manual dexterity. Rather than directly grabbing the joint you are intending to lock, you are able to grab the arm, hold on to it, and work your way down to the joint. Much less room for error with this method. Such locks also force you to get up close and personal with your attacker, therebye forcing you do adopt the offensive mindset so critical to survival.
Evan Sensei:
Please elaborate on Turning Style Wing Chun. I am not familiar with it, but it sounds very interesting.
-Collin
-
David Elkins
- Posts: 1089
- Joined: Fri Jan 15, 1999 6:01 am
UFC III - Lessons learned
Sesei Van stated "The power of the cocktail needs a delivery vehicle to impact upon the target!"
About a week ago I had a really awful nightmare. I dreamed that I was using my car for cover facing an armed assailent that was trying to kill me. I was paralyzed. I had no vehicle for the cocktail despite being armed.
This response was quite dissimilar to my waking thoughts regarding such subjects. It was quite dissimilar to my cognitive set and physical responses honed in training. It was however a product of my thoughts. No one elses, just mine.
Ever have thoughts like this? My suggestion is to embrace them--don't sweep them under the rug because they are unpleasant and/or painful. Be glad you consider such options and let them guide your thoughts and training so that they are never enacted in reality. It would not be a pretty picture.
Re: chambering. As training progresses nothing is chambered. Everything goes from where it is. Sometimes it may be in a position approximating the chamber but mostly not. When it is in chamber, it's there because something was grabbed, ripped, and pulled back to unearth your enemy or borrow power (his mass and momentum) for a strike. It might be there because you've just executed an adductive or "catch-up" deflection or strike. It ain't there to look pretty or to augment rotary power. Rotary power is characterized by energy going forward and energy going back like a merry-go-round on its axis. When I hit someone I want nothing going back and obviously everything going into the man. Watch a base ball pitcher or a javilin thrower. See how their power is all projected out. Sure there's a follow through, but then again they aren't hitting anyone are they? This is a hallmark of Muay Thai round kicks--total commitment.
I was watching a video of Rabesa Sensei performing kata this morning and that's what I saw--total commitment. I characterized his presence to a friend watching with me as "you don't want to be in his way...it's like being near a source of potential energy that is so condensed and focused that it's actually scary just watching." This is commitment. This is Uechi-Ryu. And I think this is what determines victory, be it the sportive application of the UFC or the street.
------------------
Good training,
David
About a week ago I had a really awful nightmare. I dreamed that I was using my car for cover facing an armed assailent that was trying to kill me. I was paralyzed. I had no vehicle for the cocktail despite being armed.
This response was quite dissimilar to my waking thoughts regarding such subjects. It was quite dissimilar to my cognitive set and physical responses honed in training. It was however a product of my thoughts. No one elses, just mine.
Ever have thoughts like this? My suggestion is to embrace them--don't sweep them under the rug because they are unpleasant and/or painful. Be glad you consider such options and let them guide your thoughts and training so that they are never enacted in reality. It would not be a pretty picture.
Re: chambering. As training progresses nothing is chambered. Everything goes from where it is. Sometimes it may be in a position approximating the chamber but mostly not. When it is in chamber, it's there because something was grabbed, ripped, and pulled back to unearth your enemy or borrow power (his mass and momentum) for a strike. It might be there because you've just executed an adductive or "catch-up" deflection or strike. It ain't there to look pretty or to augment rotary power. Rotary power is characterized by energy going forward and energy going back like a merry-go-round on its axis. When I hit someone I want nothing going back and obviously everything going into the man. Watch a base ball pitcher or a javilin thrower. See how their power is all projected out. Sure there's a follow through, but then again they aren't hitting anyone are they? This is a hallmark of Muay Thai round kicks--total commitment.
I was watching a video of Rabesa Sensei performing kata this morning and that's what I saw--total commitment. I characterized his presence to a friend watching with me as "you don't want to be in his way...it's like being near a source of potential energy that is so condensed and focused that it's actually scary just watching." This is commitment. This is Uechi-Ryu. And I think this is what determines victory, be it the sportive application of the UFC or the street.
------------------
Good training,
David
-
Evan Pantazi
- Posts: 1897
- Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: N. Andover, Ma. USA
- Contact:
UFC III - Lessons learned
To all,
To paraphrase something mentioned earlier..."When grappling the joint locks are ineffective." you relly have to work with Sensei Ed Melaugh, this will change your mind. Even though we may not have good luck with it, the very real possibility is there...we just need more practice!
The pressure points are real and much more effective when struck harder as Canna Sensei mentions. As for the targeting on a fast furious opponent, it is all dependent on the practice time alloted to targeting the points, as mentioned a while back if you can hit an eye with practice it's the same size as a points activation area. With anyting joint locks, points, etc...it's all how you practice and the time spent in said practice, no mysteries, no magic...hard diligent work.
As for the Turning Style Wing Chun I am not familiar enough with the method to comment. Sifu Alix Lavaud at Oriental Cultural Institute Danvers, MA. will be able to answer your questions.
------------------
Evan Pantazi
www.erols.com/kyusho
To paraphrase something mentioned earlier..."When grappling the joint locks are ineffective." you relly have to work with Sensei Ed Melaugh, this will change your mind. Even though we may not have good luck with it, the very real possibility is there...we just need more practice!
The pressure points are real and much more effective when struck harder as Canna Sensei mentions. As for the targeting on a fast furious opponent, it is all dependent on the practice time alloted to targeting the points, as mentioned a while back if you can hit an eye with practice it's the same size as a points activation area. With anyting joint locks, points, etc...it's all how you practice and the time spent in said practice, no mysteries, no magic...hard diligent work.
As for the Turning Style Wing Chun I am not familiar enough with the method to comment. Sifu Alix Lavaud at Oriental Cultural Institute Danvers, MA. will be able to answer your questions.
------------------
Evan Pantazi
www.erols.com/kyusho
-
Ted Dinwiddie
- Posts: 537
- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Charlottesville,VA,USA
UFC III - Lessons learned
With all due respect, I never said joint locks were ineffective. Indeed, in our dojo they are a major part of our practice. I agree with the post regarding finger and wrist locks being techniques of surprise. They are best used as controlling techniques which will prevent a potentially damaging or fatal situation.
