Bill-san...we execute this move in seisan bunkai in our dojo also (we call it a take-down rather than a throw). I found it difficult to execute when first learning (still have some tricky times with it) but I found two things that help.
One: if the attacker attacks - a straight punch followed by a true front kick it makes it easier for the defender to scoop the leg (hey, if the attack isn't an attack, why defend?)
Two: I was having trouble getting some of the bigger guys down on the floor with any modicum of control...couple of black belts told me that if you lift the leg you have scooped and pull down the arm you have grabbed (i.e. bring them together) then the step towards the attacker followed by the pivot gives you more control (a bit kinder to your partner too). Rather than drop the attacker on our knee, we drop them on their side to the ground, firmly plant our knee of their right hip and follow up with a controlled shoken to the ribs.
Do you guys follow up with any technique like this? Any idea on why it was dropped?
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Technique matters!
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Bill Glasheen
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Technique matters!
Mary
You and we are on the exact same page with the technique. I agree with all the comments.
My only additional one is buried in the text above. It is true that the person's center is broken when you push with the left arm and lift with the right. But the position of your right elbow determines how easy all this is. Most folks just let the right elbow hang by their right side. This is not sanchin! Try bringing that right elbow in front and see what happens. The technique almost does itself. Having good back posture is also vital. One needs to make sure the back and arms move in perfect synchrony with the legs. Some will step first, and then rock their body forward. Others will try to trip the attacker. That works, but it misses the point of the application.
Yes, the "normal" takedown goes as you described. The "hidden" alternate is to step back and drop them on your knee. We never do that for normal seisan bunkai - I only show it and the curious can work on it on their own. I save that for demonstrations where I can do it very gently with a partner about my size. Mess that one up and you really hurt one or both of you.
Why was it dropped (the technique, that is)? Good question. Perhaps folks couldn't see the connection between kata and application. Perhaps some thought it too difficult or too contrived. Whatever....we still do it. Obviously others do too :-)
- Bill
You and we are on the exact same page with the technique. I agree with all the comments.
My only additional one is buried in the text above. It is true that the person's center is broken when you push with the left arm and lift with the right. But the position of your right elbow determines how easy all this is. Most folks just let the right elbow hang by their right side. This is not sanchin! Try bringing that right elbow in front and see what happens. The technique almost does itself. Having good back posture is also vital. One needs to make sure the back and arms move in perfect synchrony with the legs. Some will step first, and then rock their body forward. Others will try to trip the attacker. That works, but it misses the point of the application.
Yes, the "normal" takedown goes as you described. The "hidden" alternate is to step back and drop them on your knee. We never do that for normal seisan bunkai - I only show it and the curious can work on it on their own. I save that for demonstrations where I can do it very gently with a partner about my size. Mess that one up and you really hurt one or both of you.
Why was it dropped (the technique, that is)? Good question. Perhaps folks couldn't see the connection between kata and application. Perhaps some thought it too difficult or too contrived. Whatever....we still do it. Obviously others do too :-)
- Bill
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Bill Glasheen
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Technique matters!
By the way, I saw that technique work in a sparring match. Our Regensburg Germany dojo (started by Bruce Hirabayashi) is led by two fellows: Paul and Helmut. They are both fine athletes. But Paul did judo as a child. Their main workout room is a mat room also suitable for judo practice. While we (George, Bruce and I) were there during the summer, Paul and Helmut successfully tested for their nidan. During the sparring match, Paul dumped Helmut with this technique in the blink of an eye. If you had never done the technique before, you might not have recognized what was done. Naturally working on a floor with a mat made this possible.
- Bill
- Bill
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Bill Glasheen
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Technique matters!
In a recent thread (Uechi vs. Grappling), I asked Josh to come down and visit us so he could work with one of our new students who was also a judoka and happened to weigh 310 pounds. Well, Josh did just that and survived the rather fun sparring match. But in that thread, Tim Ahearn jokingly wrote <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Bill,
Now that Tony has his brown belt and will start work on Seisan Bunkai, who will perform that throw with him?
I volunteer Alison.
Tim<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> We presume - of course - that Tim was wishing a seemingly impossible task on the poor, unsuspecting Alison. Shame on you, Tim.
The throw, by the way, is not done by most dojos anymore. I've looked in several books, but I can't find any picture of it. Basically it is an interpretation of the turn/sanchin-dachi/sanchin-thrust techniques just after the knee strike and just before the nukites.
* The attacker throws a sliding, right reverse punch.
* The defender does a left inside wauke and grabs onto the arm.
* The attacker, not liking this clinch, attempts to stomp on the defenders stomach with the right foot.
* The defender slides diagonally forward/left and scoops with the right arm.
* IF the defender keeps both elbows in sanchin posture, the combination of holding the attackers left right arm with left grab and holding right leg with right arm breaks the center of attacker. A simple full step forward causes the attacker to fall, and defender can put attacker down like a baby. If you want to be nasty, you can step back, pivot, drop down on right knee, and drop cradled attacker onto your left knee (a back-cracker so-to-write).
A few old timers may know what I am talking about. I keep the technique because it is only easy when you have a good sanchin posture. When you don't, it is a strength and wrestling match. Technique matters!
Weelllll....that very week, I was teaching Tony Seisan bunkai. For those of you who have been to camp, his partner was our own brown belt by the name of Vicki. Both of them needed the work, so I had them working with each other. We got to that difficut technique, and I told Vicki just to "fit" the technique and then back away. This is done a lot in judo training to help imprint the setup of a throw. Well I was looking at the two of them after the fit. Vicki's form was perfect. Tony was off balance. Tony gave me a Go ahead! look. So...I said "Go". Vicki put him down like a baby.
So, Tim, tell Alison she missed the opportunity to be Tony's first. And Tony was so tickled, he looked up at Vicki and said "Got a cigarette?"
- Bill
Now that Tony has his brown belt and will start work on Seisan Bunkai, who will perform that throw with him?
I volunteer Alison.
Tim<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> We presume - of course - that Tim was wishing a seemingly impossible task on the poor, unsuspecting Alison. Shame on you, Tim.
The throw, by the way, is not done by most dojos anymore. I've looked in several books, but I can't find any picture of it. Basically it is an interpretation of the turn/sanchin-dachi/sanchin-thrust techniques just after the knee strike and just before the nukites.
* The attacker throws a sliding, right reverse punch.
* The defender does a left inside wauke and grabs onto the arm.
* The attacker, not liking this clinch, attempts to stomp on the defenders stomach with the right foot.
* The defender slides diagonally forward/left and scoops with the right arm.
* IF the defender keeps both elbows in sanchin posture, the combination of holding the attackers left right arm with left grab and holding right leg with right arm breaks the center of attacker. A simple full step forward causes the attacker to fall, and defender can put attacker down like a baby. If you want to be nasty, you can step back, pivot, drop down on right knee, and drop cradled attacker onto your left knee (a back-cracker so-to-write).
A few old timers may know what I am talking about. I keep the technique because it is only easy when you have a good sanchin posture. When you don't, it is a strength and wrestling match. Technique matters!
Weelllll....that very week, I was teaching Tony Seisan bunkai. For those of you who have been to camp, his partner was our own brown belt by the name of Vicki. Both of them needed the work, so I had them working with each other. We got to that difficut technique, and I told Vicki just to "fit" the technique and then back away. This is done a lot in judo training to help imprint the setup of a throw. Well I was looking at the two of them after the fit. Vicki's form was perfect. Tony was off balance. Tony gave me a Go ahead! look. So...I said "Go". Vicki put him down like a baby.
So, Tim, tell Alison she missed the opportunity to be Tony's first. And Tony was so tickled, he looked up at Vicki and said "Got a cigarette?"
- Bill
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gmattson
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Technique matters!
Funny post Mr "G:! Hope Vicky didn't smoke afterwards!! Bet she went for seconds! 
Regarding the takedown: Like the spinning kick, many dojo continue to practice and perfect the takedown in Seisan Bankai. I saw a great variation, (which I have on film somewhere) at one of dojo I visited recently.
I'll check my digital camera and post it if I find it.
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GEM
Regarding the takedown: Like the spinning kick, many dojo continue to practice and perfect the takedown in Seisan Bankai. I saw a great variation, (which I have on film somewhere) at one of dojo I visited recently.
I'll check my digital camera and post it if I find it.
------------------
GEM
Technique matters!
Bill-san...how correct about posture. I know when I first started doing this move, I usually ended up on top of my victim because they would drag me down on the floor when they went down...I couldn't understand why (I think I'm pretty strong and thought I could handle their body weight!!) Finally the posture thing came into perspective ... just had to refer to something as easy(??) as a leaning stance... too far forward and it's not effective, too far back and again it's not effective (yeesh, everything is in sanchin!!!)
One question for you...when our opponent goes down on the floor we continue controlling their leg and push (it's not really a push but I don't know what else to call it ... a drive?) the leg to the floor before we pin it with our knee.
Then we control the arm by almost hyper-extending it back over the left knee (inside a bit)and pinning it there with our hand at the wrist...is that how you guys execute this move too?
I also found that the pinning of the arm without removing your hand a bit difficult to master at first...seemed to get tangled up in gi sleeves or wrapped around myself...but I noticed I was starting the "wrap" the wrong way...from the inside rather than the outside (which is much easier).
It is frustrating that moves like this get dropped. I think they are great. You learn how to grab, control and fall. Our dojo really works on the falling aspect. Some people have never hit the ground in their lives and I would have to question what they would do when they get down there. Can't protect yourself if you have the air knocked out of you...Do you guys do breakfalls?
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One question for you...when our opponent goes down on the floor we continue controlling their leg and push (it's not really a push but I don't know what else to call it ... a drive?) the leg to the floor before we pin it with our knee.
Then we control the arm by almost hyper-extending it back over the left knee (inside a bit)and pinning it there with our hand at the wrist...is that how you guys execute this move too?
I also found that the pinning of the arm without removing your hand a bit difficult to master at first...seemed to get tangled up in gi sleeves or wrapped around myself...but I noticed I was starting the "wrap" the wrong way...from the inside rather than the outside (which is much easier).
It is frustrating that moves like this get dropped. I think they are great. You learn how to grab, control and fall. Our dojo really works on the falling aspect. Some people have never hit the ground in their lives and I would have to question what they would do when they get down there. Can't protect yourself if you have the air knocked out of you...Do you guys do breakfalls?
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Bill Glasheen
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Technique matters!
Mary
Do we do break falls?
YES, we do ukemi - the practice of rolling and falling. I have a shodan in aikido (Tomiki method) and actually first learned ukemi from a Charlottesville judoka circa 1982.
We do our "pin" a bit different. The whole thing is done a little artificially - we gently put the person down. I tell my people that if they have the control to put the person down gently, then they have the control to really slam them down. As the person's body touches the ground, we push the right leg forward and try to pin the whole lower body down with the knee/shin by turning their hip over (counterclockwise to them) and pinning the hip to the floor by kneeling on the right/back of the pelvic bone. When you do it right, there is absolutely no way they can move their leg, and there is quite the uncomfortable twist at the waist. We remain holding the left arm and keep it pulled up. This exposes the underside of the right side. You know, everything that you are supposed to be protecting when your arms are in sanchin. All those nice ribs staring at you with no muscles to protect them; makes a sadist go mad with glee. :-) As long as you maintain a pelvic-tuck position, you can even lean over a little to hit them and there is nothing they can do for at least several seconds. If you know what you are doing, you can even perform a hyperextension technique on their right elbow. But that's for the more advanced grapplers.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Anthony (edited 10-31-99).]
Do we do break falls?
YES, we do ukemi - the practice of rolling and falling. I have a shodan in aikido (Tomiki method) and actually first learned ukemi from a Charlottesville judoka circa 1982.
We do our "pin" a bit different. The whole thing is done a little artificially - we gently put the person down. I tell my people that if they have the control to put the person down gently, then they have the control to really slam them down. As the person's body touches the ground, we push the right leg forward and try to pin the whole lower body down with the knee/shin by turning their hip over (counterclockwise to them) and pinning the hip to the floor by kneeling on the right/back of the pelvic bone. When you do it right, there is absolutely no way they can move their leg, and there is quite the uncomfortable twist at the waist. We remain holding the left arm and keep it pulled up. This exposes the underside of the right side. You know, everything that you are supposed to be protecting when your arms are in sanchin. All those nice ribs staring at you with no muscles to protect them; makes a sadist go mad with glee. :-) As long as you maintain a pelvic-tuck position, you can even lean over a little to hit them and there is nothing they can do for at least several seconds. If you know what you are doing, you can even perform a hyperextension technique on their right elbow. But that's for the more advanced grapplers.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Anthony (edited 10-31-99).]
Technique matters!
Bill-san...would love to see the ukemi... hope you can figure out how to post it. If you can't, try and send to me by e-mail - mine is msimpson@coxhanson.ca. (JD - ignore that!!!)
There are other parts to seisan bunkai that I think bear discussing. One of the other parts of seisan bunkai we have looked at in detail at our dojo just recently is the application of the forward elbow strike. Seems that often the defender approaches this defence movement against the sword by coming in with the elbow strike on a bit of an angle rather than a straight forward movement. The first movement is obviously to block the sword, the second to follow up with the strike...does that sound right?
While I think the elbow strike can be effective to the rib section on an angle (if it connects) it is definitely more effective straight on just - below the nipple area around the heart. All I can say is thank God for turtle shells - it is a devastating move!!!
I am having a bit of trouble with the jump back in the bunkai...I find I don't really jump back (I am having a bit of trouble with the transition of this movement)...I tend to just want to come forward and block...any pointers? They would definitely be appreciated.
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There are other parts to seisan bunkai that I think bear discussing. One of the other parts of seisan bunkai we have looked at in detail at our dojo just recently is the application of the forward elbow strike. Seems that often the defender approaches this defence movement against the sword by coming in with the elbow strike on a bit of an angle rather than a straight forward movement. The first movement is obviously to block the sword, the second to follow up with the strike...does that sound right?
While I think the elbow strike can be effective to the rib section on an angle (if it connects) it is definitely more effective straight on just - below the nipple area around the heart. All I can say is thank God for turtle shells - it is a devastating move!!!
I am having a bit of trouble with the jump back in the bunkai...I find I don't really jump back (I am having a bit of trouble with the transition of this movement)...I tend to just want to come forward and block...any pointers? They would definitely be appreciated.
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Technique matters!
Mary
I will send the picture in question to both you and to George. At least you will enjoy it. Maybe George can get Tony to post it.
I really like the way you think. You are asking all the right questions, and pointing to many of the weaknesses in various interpretations of the movements of seisan in seisan bunkai. Understand that there will be both individual and dojo preferences. But at least your mind is questioning - as it should.
The forward (vertical) elbow strike, or tate hiji ate
I'm not exactly sure where you study. However I can tell you that I got my present (and very satisfactory) understanding of this specific bunkai application from Bethoney sensei.
Now there are many things to consider here. First of all, how often does the boogeyman come at you with a sword? Second of all, are you really going to attack a samurai bearing a sword with your empty hands? Time to switch to the Indianna Jones defense Bang! Silliness of the bunkai application aside... I think a picture is worth a thousand words. How about two of them? Get a hold of Alan Dollar's book. Look at page 324 - a very old picture of the tate hiji ate from horse stance. The attack is on the center line in that picture. Next look in the upper-right hand corner of page 337. Alan is showing the very specific application I speak of. Yes, it is exactly where you would prefer to strike. My preference too! BOTH of these pictures in particular also show an important aspect of how to apply the left arm block.
There are several issues to consider here.
Where do you want to hit? There are two major "lines" to consider. One is right on the center line. Another is right on the line of the nipple. Yes, this should get Evan all excited. But I don't even need to think kyusho. On the center line, I've got the sternum, zyphoid process, and solar plexus on the center line. On the side (roughly nipple) line, I've got the heart, and all that "naked" area absent of pectoralis and latissimus muscle when a person's arm is up. When I teach kids, I call it the "tickle zone". I tickle my kids incessantly until they learn to keep those elbows up front in sanchin. Form follows function! Your descriptions of the turtle shell are apt. Hit hard there and you can cause broken ribs and damaged intercostal muscles. The attacker will no longer be able to raise his arm or breathe properly.
Another issue to consider - if you really want to entertain the idea of attacking a bearer of a sword bare-handed - is when you want to pull this off, and at what angle. Yes, one way is to step aside and guide the sword safely down. Fine, you aren't hit - yet. But what the heck are you going to do now? Whack their contracted latissimus muscle? I don't think so. I'm not convinced I'll put them out of commission with a single tate hiji ate. It's that next swing of the sword that I'm more worried about now.
No, I believe in the preemptive strike. You know, like when the Israelis bombed an Iraqi nuclear power plant before they finished building it. They attacked their enemy's intent. Basically one needs to charge forward as soon as the elbow comes up - with no turning back. Hit them when the elbow is up; that's when they are most vulnerable.
One cannot exactly do the bunkai application like you would in real life. It's too dangerous. No, you need to artificially break it down in parts, and be very polite and careful with your opponent. So this is how I do it:
1) When the elbow shows the first hint of going up, I charge forward. I start in left sanchin, I step left-right into right sanchin and cross block underneath the right elbow (at or above, not below the elbow).
2) From this (artificially) arrested, intermediate position, I slide from right sanchin dachi to right zenkutsu dachi. Simultaneously my right elbow goes forward into tate hiji while I leave my left arm exactly where it was. Be very careful! The person is very vulnerable in this position under their left arm.
3) From there. I leave the right hiji ate exactly where it is, and take the left arm from cross block position through to the end of a wauke. This bring the sword around and down to the floor, and the right hiraken is staring at the opponent.
4) I then do a "cobra-like" (crane-like??) thrust of the hiraken to whatever target presents itself on the left side of their head.
Get Bobby Bethoney to work on it with you if you ever get a chance to visit him.
Seisan jump application
I identify with your questioning of this bunkai application. Yes, Mary, your brain is in the right place. Don't ignore your instincts.
First, kata is kata and applications are many. Don't think you ever have to do any one application exactly like you do the move in the kata.
Second, don't get me started on the sword thing again. Stupid, stupid, stupid application. Please, either get me my gun or my track shoes.
Third, the intended application was likely to something called iron broom in Chinese gung fu. There are modern equivalents in shootfighting. Basically someone is trying to take your legs out. You are avoiding this leg takedown, while attempting to stay on your feet. The hands are another story. There are many, many versions of this hand movement in Goju, White crane, kobudo, etc, etc. It has many, many neat applications.
OK, now to the specific movement in our bunkai. This person is attempting to do a double hit: first to your leg, and then overhead. If you jump back, you will never be able to get back in again. The bearer of the sword, shinai, stick, baseball bat, whatever has a danger area around them that is shaped like a donut with a big hole in it. You either want to be outside the donut, or inside. If you jump back, you'll never get in. Furthermore, it takes more energy (and precious time) to move your entire mass back than it does to simply lift your leg. So....I recommend the following for this specific application:
1) When the sword comes to the leg, perform the jump by simply lifting the legs high (as if jumping a hurdle) without moving your center either backwards or up. Suddenly you have partially closed the gap (because they moved in on you), and you avoided being hit in the most efficient manner possible. Neat!
2) Then, don't wait! Jump forward ASAP. Here it is probably wise to angle it a bit because you are flying through the air and can't exactly trap them like you could with the tate hiji ate. Instead get as close as possible with your jump forward and maybe a touch to the side. Then do the first yoko hiji ate to the floating ribs. Hit two and three depend on what targets present themselves.
Hope all this helps!
- Bill
I will send the picture in question to both you and to George. At least you will enjoy it. Maybe George can get Tony to post it.
I really like the way you think. You are asking all the right questions, and pointing to many of the weaknesses in various interpretations of the movements of seisan in seisan bunkai. Understand that there will be both individual and dojo preferences. But at least your mind is questioning - as it should.
The forward (vertical) elbow strike, or tate hiji ate
I'm not exactly sure where you study. However I can tell you that I got my present (and very satisfactory) understanding of this specific bunkai application from Bethoney sensei.
Now there are many things to consider here. First of all, how often does the boogeyman come at you with a sword? Second of all, are you really going to attack a samurai bearing a sword with your empty hands? Time to switch to the Indianna Jones defense Bang! Silliness of the bunkai application aside... I think a picture is worth a thousand words. How about two of them? Get a hold of Alan Dollar's book. Look at page 324 - a very old picture of the tate hiji ate from horse stance. The attack is on the center line in that picture. Next look in the upper-right hand corner of page 337. Alan is showing the very specific application I speak of. Yes, it is exactly where you would prefer to strike. My preference too! BOTH of these pictures in particular also show an important aspect of how to apply the left arm block.
There are several issues to consider here.
Where do you want to hit? There are two major "lines" to consider. One is right on the center line. Another is right on the line of the nipple. Yes, this should get Evan all excited. But I don't even need to think kyusho. On the center line, I've got the sternum, zyphoid process, and solar plexus on the center line. On the side (roughly nipple) line, I've got the heart, and all that "naked" area absent of pectoralis and latissimus muscle when a person's arm is up. When I teach kids, I call it the "tickle zone". I tickle my kids incessantly until they learn to keep those elbows up front in sanchin. Form follows function! Your descriptions of the turtle shell are apt. Hit hard there and you can cause broken ribs and damaged intercostal muscles. The attacker will no longer be able to raise his arm or breathe properly.
Another issue to consider - if you really want to entertain the idea of attacking a bearer of a sword bare-handed - is when you want to pull this off, and at what angle. Yes, one way is to step aside and guide the sword safely down. Fine, you aren't hit - yet. But what the heck are you going to do now? Whack their contracted latissimus muscle? I don't think so. I'm not convinced I'll put them out of commission with a single tate hiji ate. It's that next swing of the sword that I'm more worried about now.
No, I believe in the preemptive strike. You know, like when the Israelis bombed an Iraqi nuclear power plant before they finished building it. They attacked their enemy's intent. Basically one needs to charge forward as soon as the elbow comes up - with no turning back. Hit them when the elbow is up; that's when they are most vulnerable.
One cannot exactly do the bunkai application like you would in real life. It's too dangerous. No, you need to artificially break it down in parts, and be very polite and careful with your opponent. So this is how I do it:
1) When the elbow shows the first hint of going up, I charge forward. I start in left sanchin, I step left-right into right sanchin and cross block underneath the right elbow (at or above, not below the elbow).
2) From this (artificially) arrested, intermediate position, I slide from right sanchin dachi to right zenkutsu dachi. Simultaneously my right elbow goes forward into tate hiji while I leave my left arm exactly where it was. Be very careful! The person is very vulnerable in this position under their left arm.
3) From there. I leave the right hiji ate exactly where it is, and take the left arm from cross block position through to the end of a wauke. This bring the sword around and down to the floor, and the right hiraken is staring at the opponent.
4) I then do a "cobra-like" (crane-like??) thrust of the hiraken to whatever target presents itself on the left side of their head.
Get Bobby Bethoney to work on it with you if you ever get a chance to visit him.
Seisan jump application
I identify with your questioning of this bunkai application. Yes, Mary, your brain is in the right place. Don't ignore your instincts.
First, kata is kata and applications are many. Don't think you ever have to do any one application exactly like you do the move in the kata.
Second, don't get me started on the sword thing again. Stupid, stupid, stupid application. Please, either get me my gun or my track shoes.
Third, the intended application was likely to something called iron broom in Chinese gung fu. There are modern equivalents in shootfighting. Basically someone is trying to take your legs out. You are avoiding this leg takedown, while attempting to stay on your feet. The hands are another story. There are many, many versions of this hand movement in Goju, White crane, kobudo, etc, etc. It has many, many neat applications.
OK, now to the specific movement in our bunkai. This person is attempting to do a double hit: first to your leg, and then overhead. If you jump back, you will never be able to get back in again. The bearer of the sword, shinai, stick, baseball bat, whatever has a danger area around them that is shaped like a donut with a big hole in it. You either want to be outside the donut, or inside. If you jump back, you'll never get in. Furthermore, it takes more energy (and precious time) to move your entire mass back than it does to simply lift your leg. So....I recommend the following for this specific application:
1) When the sword comes to the leg, perform the jump by simply lifting the legs high (as if jumping a hurdle) without moving your center either backwards or up. Suddenly you have partially closed the gap (because they moved in on you), and you avoided being hit in the most efficient manner possible. Neat!
2) Then, don't wait! Jump forward ASAP. Here it is probably wise to angle it a bit because you are flying through the air and can't exactly trap them like you could with the tate hiji ate. Instead get as close as possible with your jump forward and maybe a touch to the side. Then do the first yoko hiji ate to the floating ribs. Hit two and three depend on what targets present themselves.
Hope all this helps!
- Bill
Technique matters!
Bil-san....sorry for the delay in getting back to you today...we just finished a 3 hour seminar with our sensei to prep for the dan test in two weeks...it was great - very intense, one on one, and we worked on a lot of little problem areas...I did manage to read your post before heading out the door and wanted to respond.
By the by, I work out at Dave Hunt's Karate Academy in Halifax, Nova Scotia (very proud of this!!! - Dave is an excellent instructor and has been on the Uechi scene just about forever) If you ever get up this way, drop in and check us out (we're very friendly and don't bite - like to kick and punch a lot though...oh yeah, and be prepared to party - ask Bob Bethany and the other Boston boys about this!!!)
First of all thanks for your advice!!! Very much appreciated. I did have a chance to look at the Dollar book and yes, we do interpret the block as it shown on p. 324 and again as shown on p. 337. However, we do our hiraken strike differently. We do not extend that strike movement and instead with the attacker's arm raised we either extend the tate hiji ate as a shoken to the eye or throat area...or we pull down the arm and deliver the same strike (shoken) to the eye, temple or throat region. I look at the last picture on p. 337 and it seems to me that the strike seems to be extended...we keep our strike closer to our body (looks more like a cobra strike). The other thing I would note from p.337 is that I think (my own personal opinion - I may be wrong) that the block (picture at top on right) should drive the opponent back a bit and throw them off balance. We are taught to "break" the attacker's power at our dojo. I have seen Bob Bethany do this move and I tell you, I would rather eat crushed glass than be on the end of what he throws out!!!
As for the jump back...still working on it. I find that it has become frustrating because (I was just told by Lori M-D) I over analyze it... yes and no, I think it is more because I do not feel threatened by this move...that was until my sensei brought out a stick today and made me try it again... well, I'm getting it now!!!
I will try and keep the "hurdle" thought in mind as well as the intent of the attacker. Yes, I know that it may not be too often in the future that I get attacked by a sword weidling maniac ... but you never know right? Perhaps the other thing that has helped was that sensei showed us the intent of the strike (not just taking out the first leg but going for the back leg with the sword too)
Finally I think that final thought that has seared itself into my brain today is that the bunkai ain't ever going to be as "pretty" as the kata... perhaps I am wrong (again?) but I think of kata as the demonstration of form and the bunkai as application of the technique.
Thanks in advance for sending the picture...can't wait to see it. And again, thanks for the advice (every little bit helps!!!)
And as this continues I can't wait to hear your thoughts on the knee strike.. Mary and Lori M-D
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By the by, I work out at Dave Hunt's Karate Academy in Halifax, Nova Scotia (very proud of this!!! - Dave is an excellent instructor and has been on the Uechi scene just about forever) If you ever get up this way, drop in and check us out (we're very friendly and don't bite - like to kick and punch a lot though...oh yeah, and be prepared to party - ask Bob Bethany and the other Boston boys about this!!!)
First of all thanks for your advice!!! Very much appreciated. I did have a chance to look at the Dollar book and yes, we do interpret the block as it shown on p. 324 and again as shown on p. 337. However, we do our hiraken strike differently. We do not extend that strike movement and instead with the attacker's arm raised we either extend the tate hiji ate as a shoken to the eye or throat area...or we pull down the arm and deliver the same strike (shoken) to the eye, temple or throat region. I look at the last picture on p. 337 and it seems to me that the strike seems to be extended...we keep our strike closer to our body (looks more like a cobra strike). The other thing I would note from p.337 is that I think (my own personal opinion - I may be wrong) that the block (picture at top on right) should drive the opponent back a bit and throw them off balance. We are taught to "break" the attacker's power at our dojo. I have seen Bob Bethany do this move and I tell you, I would rather eat crushed glass than be on the end of what he throws out!!!
As for the jump back...still working on it. I find that it has become frustrating because (I was just told by Lori M-D) I over analyze it... yes and no, I think it is more because I do not feel threatened by this move...that was until my sensei brought out a stick today and made me try it again... well, I'm getting it now!!!
I will try and keep the "hurdle" thought in mind as well as the intent of the attacker. Yes, I know that it may not be too often in the future that I get attacked by a sword weidling maniac ... but you never know right? Perhaps the other thing that has helped was that sensei showed us the intent of the strike (not just taking out the first leg but going for the back leg with the sword too)
Finally I think that final thought that has seared itself into my brain today is that the bunkai ain't ever going to be as "pretty" as the kata... perhaps I am wrong (again?) but I think of kata as the demonstration of form and the bunkai as application of the technique.
Thanks in advance for sending the picture...can't wait to see it. And again, thanks for the advice (every little bit helps!!!)
And as this continues I can't wait to hear your thoughts on the knee strike.. Mary and Lori M-D
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Technique matters!
Bill-san just got your e-mail...man, great picture - what technique - ha ha!!!
There was one other little thing I forgot to comment on with regard to our elbow strike...you say you all start in a a left stance and step forward with a right...we start in a right stance and slid forward...I find it interesting how different dojos practice the same techniques with variations.
I know the students at my dojo seem to have a trickle down effect from my sensei and his sensei...it's kind of neat how different the focus can become on certain movements...we all do our kata a bit differently but basically we're all the same.
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There was one other little thing I forgot to comment on with regard to our elbow strike...you say you all start in a a left stance and step forward with a right...we start in a right stance and slid forward...I find it interesting how different dojos practice the same techniques with variations.
I know the students at my dojo seem to have a trickle down effect from my sensei and his sensei...it's kind of neat how different the focus can become on certain movements...we all do our kata a bit differently but basically we're all the same.
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