Folks:
My most sincere apologies for my misinformation regarding the recent promotions.
Initial reports to me indicated that the recent batch of hachidan certificates were simply "given" to the recipients. This is incorrect.
Apparently there WAS an actual physical test of the candidates. I apologize for my misunderstanding and for sharing it here on Bill's Forum.
That aside, no one has breached the more important issues of "teacher consent", time in rank, style "loyalty" or others.
If any of you are like me, you're TERRIFIED of saying the wrong thing and offending our seniors!
Still, I think we can discuss this issue in specifics, independent of the men, and get a lot accomplished. Certainly this topic is more important than the 20 or so posts it has generated thus far!
How about it? Real change or heads in the sand again?
It is, after all, up to us.
Respectfully,
Gary
Rank (again?) 2
Moderator: Available
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Rank (again?) 2
Gary
* It is the mark of a good instructor when a student speaks his mind. If the greater Uechi community out there has competent, secure instructors, then their students should have no problem voicing their opinions and concerns - as long as they speak the truth. When these individuals are silent....
* It is the mark of a good student when he shows no concern about whether or not (s)he will be promoted. Yes, loyalty is an honorable trait. But proper loyalty. Forget this support, right or wrong crap. We do a disservice when we do not speak out against things that - in the end - undermine the mantle of authority that our seniors depend on. Promotions should be merit based. Rear-end kissing and brown nosing have no place in a quality organization. One should not shape one's political opinions with concerns about future test boards.
* It is the mark of a good karateka when (s)he can proceed with a just cause in spite of threats - explicit or implicit. In a previous "uproar" on this forum, someone once e-mailed me asking me if I was worried about so-and-so and their threats. Huh? Hey, I've had my butt kicked from one end of the dojo to the next. I've faced some of the nastier karateka you'll ever want to tangle with. I lived many years as a creature of the night, quietly maneuvering in dangerous areas. And so has every other decent karateka worth his salt. Fear is our friend. It shapes responsible behavior. And it sniffs out true evil in our world...
This is our organization. We have a right to speak up. And we all have a right (Gary) to screw up a little now and then when our head is in the right place ;-)
- Bill
* It is the mark of a good instructor when a student speaks his mind. If the greater Uechi community out there has competent, secure instructors, then their students should have no problem voicing their opinions and concerns - as long as they speak the truth. When these individuals are silent....
* It is the mark of a good student when he shows no concern about whether or not (s)he will be promoted. Yes, loyalty is an honorable trait. But proper loyalty. Forget this support, right or wrong crap. We do a disservice when we do not speak out against things that - in the end - undermine the mantle of authority that our seniors depend on. Promotions should be merit based. Rear-end kissing and brown nosing have no place in a quality organization. One should not shape one's political opinions with concerns about future test boards.
* It is the mark of a good karateka when (s)he can proceed with a just cause in spite of threats - explicit or implicit. In a previous "uproar" on this forum, someone once e-mailed me asking me if I was worried about so-and-so and their threats. Huh? Hey, I've had my butt kicked from one end of the dojo to the next. I've faced some of the nastier karateka you'll ever want to tangle with. I lived many years as a creature of the night, quietly maneuvering in dangerous areas. And so has every other decent karateka worth his salt. Fear is our friend. It shapes responsible behavior. And it sniffs out true evil in our world...
This is our organization. We have a right to speak up. And we all have a right (Gary) to screw up a little now and then when our head is in the right place ;-)
- Bill
Rank (again?) 2
Gary is correct. I take it the original discussion came up because there was a need to get at the truth and not a need to validate the obvious. It boils down to governance. What type of structure do you want? Forget the personalities for a moment and focus in a detached, unemotional way.
Look, it’s an organizational problem. Consider a company with many offices, here and overseas, with managers (perhaps rank stands for hierarchy in this case) throughout the organization. In many companies, leaders are developed from within the organization and due to downsizing, are noted for their ability to lead by persuasion, not by control. The best leaders are not intimidated by the suggestions of staff. In fact, they foster open communications and teamwork, they make use of it to inspire loyalty by being open and honest with their staff. There's a mutual respect. In this way, they open the discussion and share information to arrive at the best answer, a reasoned response if you will, that has the force of consensus. Isn’t that what started the discussion? In a healthy organization, the leaders don't have to express outrage at a poor promotion. It just doesn't happen.
There are at least two levels of effort that need to go on in order to improve the ‘organization’. The most important is from the bottom up. Where individual dojo discuss what it means to have rank, perhaps even consider or vote on promotional candidates. What behavior and competencies do students want and expect from seniors and themselves etc. After all, until recently (the last two thousand or so years), prehistoric man chose the fastest runner to carry the spear and made use of the slower members wait in ambush. This happened naturally in small groups. The payoff was meat on the table right? Life or death right? Consider the power of teams working together. That discussion should happen at all dojo and needs to filter up to the seniors in a meaningful way. Get everyone’s view, share ideas, get to the best ideas and make it happen! There are different ways to effect change but seniors are the key and they can foster and promote open discussion or snuff it out. Gary is gutsy but absolutely correct in picking up the consequences of ‘control’ talk: squelching ideas through fear and manipulation. Good for Gary… he speaks his mind and says what he believes regardless! I admire and respect that!
The second level happens at higher levels of the organization; to discuss the broad-brush issues. What architecture or structure should the organization take to facilitate the expectations of its members? Perhaps that means a Federalist model, where a relatively weak central government gives higher degrees of local autonomy and where few elements need to be defined or managed centrally (but there's a commonality of terms across the organization through a rational negotiation between central and dispersed groups). Perhaps each dojo elects a spokesman. Perhaps the main role of leader comes from this level. Whatever!
The point is, it’s your organization, as has been stated, but do something positive about it, transform it, open the discussion and make choices about the direction of the change you all want (and spend less time and energy trying to maintain power by contrivance).
[This message has been edited by Phils (edited 11-02-99).]
[This message has been edited by Phils (edited 11-02-99).]
Look, it’s an organizational problem. Consider a company with many offices, here and overseas, with managers (perhaps rank stands for hierarchy in this case) throughout the organization. In many companies, leaders are developed from within the organization and due to downsizing, are noted for their ability to lead by persuasion, not by control. The best leaders are not intimidated by the suggestions of staff. In fact, they foster open communications and teamwork, they make use of it to inspire loyalty by being open and honest with their staff. There's a mutual respect. In this way, they open the discussion and share information to arrive at the best answer, a reasoned response if you will, that has the force of consensus. Isn’t that what started the discussion? In a healthy organization, the leaders don't have to express outrage at a poor promotion. It just doesn't happen.
There are at least two levels of effort that need to go on in order to improve the ‘organization’. The most important is from the bottom up. Where individual dojo discuss what it means to have rank, perhaps even consider or vote on promotional candidates. What behavior and competencies do students want and expect from seniors and themselves etc. After all, until recently (the last two thousand or so years), prehistoric man chose the fastest runner to carry the spear and made use of the slower members wait in ambush. This happened naturally in small groups. The payoff was meat on the table right? Life or death right? Consider the power of teams working together. That discussion should happen at all dojo and needs to filter up to the seniors in a meaningful way. Get everyone’s view, share ideas, get to the best ideas and make it happen! There are different ways to effect change but seniors are the key and they can foster and promote open discussion or snuff it out. Gary is gutsy but absolutely correct in picking up the consequences of ‘control’ talk: squelching ideas through fear and manipulation. Good for Gary… he speaks his mind and says what he believes regardless! I admire and respect that!
The second level happens at higher levels of the organization; to discuss the broad-brush issues. What architecture or structure should the organization take to facilitate the expectations of its members? Perhaps that means a Federalist model, where a relatively weak central government gives higher degrees of local autonomy and where few elements need to be defined or managed centrally (but there's a commonality of terms across the organization through a rational negotiation between central and dispersed groups). Perhaps each dojo elects a spokesman. Perhaps the main role of leader comes from this level. Whatever!
The point is, it’s your organization, as has been stated, but do something positive about it, transform it, open the discussion and make choices about the direction of the change you all want (and spend less time and energy trying to maintain power by contrivance).
[This message has been edited by Phils (edited 11-02-99).]
[This message has been edited by Phils (edited 11-02-99).]
-
mikemurphy
- Posts: 989
- Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
- Contact:
Rank (again?) 2
To all:
Once again, sensei Mattson has come to the forefront and told us what we may, or may not want to hear. What is the legitimacy of rank really? Looking at the most recent promotions as an example, what makes these people the rank that they are? Simply the acceptance of their peers and their students. Other than that, how can we judge "legitimacy?" Obviously, by Sensei Mattson's own words Kanmei Uechi's rank is somewhat tainted which makes Sensei Mattson's rank somewhat tainted. Of course anyone promoted by Sensei Mattson on is thus living a lie. :-(
But let's look at everyone else. What makes the Shohei rank more legitimate? Not a thing. Who is promoting Nakahodo Sensei or Takamiyagi Sensei and under what "legitimacy" is their rank applied to? The answer is true here as well. They are what they are because of acceptance by their peers and students. Nothing else! So those people who claim that they are more "legit" because they have been promoted by Walter Mattson sensei or Frank Gorman sensei is just fooling themselves.
Sensei Mattson really said the same thing as Van Canna sensei did. If you are really legitimate then everyone will know. The same goes for those who are not. We all know those people, the ones who haven't studied or trained in years, or just show up to the dojo or at certain functions maybe taking their gi out of the closet in order to look official. These people show up and pick up rank like the rest of us pick up a value meal at the local restraunt. The only ones that they fooling are themselves.
I, for one, am proud of my rank because I feel that I have earned it through my work in the art. I am extremely proud that Sensei Mattson, 9th Dan has signed that certificate and those of my students because to me his rank is legitimate.
Let's put it this way, rank is only what we make it. I don't care which side you study with or who signs your certificate. If your peers have no problem with the rank that was given you, then why should anyone else?
Yours in budo,
Mike
Once again, sensei Mattson has come to the forefront and told us what we may, or may not want to hear. What is the legitimacy of rank really? Looking at the most recent promotions as an example, what makes these people the rank that they are? Simply the acceptance of their peers and their students. Other than that, how can we judge "legitimacy?" Obviously, by Sensei Mattson's own words Kanmei Uechi's rank is somewhat tainted which makes Sensei Mattson's rank somewhat tainted. Of course anyone promoted by Sensei Mattson on is thus living a lie. :-(
But let's look at everyone else. What makes the Shohei rank more legitimate? Not a thing. Who is promoting Nakahodo Sensei or Takamiyagi Sensei and under what "legitimacy" is their rank applied to? The answer is true here as well. They are what they are because of acceptance by their peers and students. Nothing else! So those people who claim that they are more "legit" because they have been promoted by Walter Mattson sensei or Frank Gorman sensei is just fooling themselves.
Sensei Mattson really said the same thing as Van Canna sensei did. If you are really legitimate then everyone will know. The same goes for those who are not. We all know those people, the ones who haven't studied or trained in years, or just show up to the dojo or at certain functions maybe taking their gi out of the closet in order to look official. These people show up and pick up rank like the rest of us pick up a value meal at the local restraunt. The only ones that they fooling are themselves.
I, for one, am proud of my rank because I feel that I have earned it through my work in the art. I am extremely proud that Sensei Mattson, 9th Dan has signed that certificate and those of my students because to me his rank is legitimate.
Let's put it this way, rank is only what we make it. I don't care which side you study with or who signs your certificate. If your peers have no problem with the rank that was given you, then why should anyone else?
Yours in budo,
Mike
Rank (again?) 2
When I posted the information I believe to be true about Kanmei Uechi, It was not being told in the intention to make everyone feel they are not qualified for the rank they hold. But, rather to get the whole story out in the open. I admit what I posted might only be part of the story, but it's a part that people tend to ignore.
When it comes to question of legitimacy of your rank the only one who can answer that is you. Forget about who is 6th, 7th, or 8th dan, it's not important. No one can take away the hard work you put into when earning a rank. When people start spouting "I got my rank the hard way but he got his the easy way" you start opening doors for information you might not want to hear.
Mr Mattson's original post was titled "Should I just shut up and Train?" Since hard work is what truly defines a persons rank, then I suggest YES!
To Mike Murphy
To answer the question "Who is promoting Nakahodo Sensei or Takamiyagi Sensei and under what "legitimacy" is their rank applied to?" I believe they were promoted to 9th dan by Master Uechi before he died. The 10th dan was by a group of peers but I think it was more for the reason of defining a head of the orginization Though I could be wrong.
[This message has been edited by Pat (edited 11-03-99).]
When it comes to question of legitimacy of your rank the only one who can answer that is you. Forget about who is 6th, 7th, or 8th dan, it's not important. No one can take away the hard work you put into when earning a rank. When people start spouting "I got my rank the hard way but he got his the easy way" you start opening doors for information you might not want to hear.
Mr Mattson's original post was titled "Should I just shut up and Train?" Since hard work is what truly defines a persons rank, then I suggest YES!
To Mike Murphy
To answer the question "Who is promoting Nakahodo Sensei or Takamiyagi Sensei and under what "legitimacy" is their rank applied to?" I believe they were promoted to 9th dan by Master Uechi before he died. The 10th dan was by a group of peers but I think it was more for the reason of defining a head of the orginization Though I could be wrong.
[This message has been edited by Pat (edited 11-03-99).]
-
Gary Santaniello
- Posts: 288
- Joined: Thu May 06, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Randolph Ma USA
Rank (again?) 2
In reviewing Sensei Mattson's book "Uechi-Ryu Karate-Do" published in 1974, i find some interesting requirements that were originally set forth regarding rank an title. I have read the question by some regarding what are the requirements for high ranks ?
It appears that at one time the "All Okinawan Karate Do Federation" which was made up of a board of Uechi, Goju, and Shorin members had set forth some regulations pertaining to rank .
Surprizing enough, one could actually attain "Godan" rank in a 9 year min. time in study. I see no reference to any numerical ranking above that. However, what we refer to as "titles" not rank, Renshi, Kyoshi, Hanshi, and Hanshi-sei
are refered to as "Degrees" pg# 473 hard copy.
Requirement for Renshi, five continuous years of study after 5th dan.
Kyoshi: having Renshi Degree for 10 years & teaching Karate Do.
Hanshi: having Kyoshi Degree and still continuing study after age of 60 .
Hanshi-sei: having Hanshi Degree and still continuing after age of 70.
We now say that these are "titles" seperate from rank. However, the written info seems to indicate otherwise ?
Is there still an "All Okinawan Karate Do Federation" in Okinawa ? Do other styles follow the criteria that was set forth back then ? How did we arrive at 6 to 10 Dan Degrees, accompanied by titles that appeared to be Rank originally ?
It is set forth that a "thesis" accompany the testing for 6th dan rank in order to be recognized as a "Renshi" however, other systems do "thesis" for each dan rank where as a stripe signifies their dan rank.
What do these titles actually mean in "translation" from Japanese to English ?
Do they have numerical meaning or could someone please translate them ? Simply curious.
Respectfully
------------------
Gary S.
It appears that at one time the "All Okinawan Karate Do Federation" which was made up of a board of Uechi, Goju, and Shorin members had set forth some regulations pertaining to rank .
Surprizing enough, one could actually attain "Godan" rank in a 9 year min. time in study. I see no reference to any numerical ranking above that. However, what we refer to as "titles" not rank, Renshi, Kyoshi, Hanshi, and Hanshi-sei
are refered to as "Degrees" pg# 473 hard copy.
Requirement for Renshi, five continuous years of study after 5th dan.
Kyoshi: having Renshi Degree for 10 years & teaching Karate Do.
Hanshi: having Kyoshi Degree and still continuing study after age of 60 .
Hanshi-sei: having Hanshi Degree and still continuing after age of 70.
We now say that these are "titles" seperate from rank. However, the written info seems to indicate otherwise ?
Is there still an "All Okinawan Karate Do Federation" in Okinawa ? Do other styles follow the criteria that was set forth back then ? How did we arrive at 6 to 10 Dan Degrees, accompanied by titles that appeared to be Rank originally ?
It is set forth that a "thesis" accompany the testing for 6th dan rank in order to be recognized as a "Renshi" however, other systems do "thesis" for each dan rank where as a stripe signifies their dan rank.
What do these titles actually mean in "translation" from Japanese to English ?
Do they have numerical meaning or could someone please translate them ? Simply curious.
Respectfully
------------------
Gary S.
Rank (again?) 2
Gary S.,
I don't know that the definitions of those terms will necessarily add clarity... but in any event:
Renshi - lit. "forging (or 'polishing') person," a trainer. The author of the reference (Fredrick Lovret, Budo Jiten) goes on to state that this does not necessarily imply teaching, but rather someone who leads a class through repetitions of basics! Interestingly, this definition indicates that this is commonly awarded at the ranks of Yondan or Godan.
Kyoshi - Described simply as 'a teacher.' I have also heard and/or read that this is similar to the english "professor."
Hanshi - lit. "model person." Described as a 'master instructor.'
These terms are presented as they are used in traditional Japanese budo (I believe they originated in kendo). It is entirely possible that the use within the Uechi Assn. has a completely different history - anyone have any information on that?
greg
I don't know that the definitions of those terms will necessarily add clarity... but in any event:
Renshi - lit. "forging (or 'polishing') person," a trainer. The author of the reference (Fredrick Lovret, Budo Jiten) goes on to state that this does not necessarily imply teaching, but rather someone who leads a class through repetitions of basics! Interestingly, this definition indicates that this is commonly awarded at the ranks of Yondan or Godan.
Kyoshi - Described simply as 'a teacher.' I have also heard and/or read that this is similar to the english "professor."
Hanshi - lit. "model person." Described as a 'master instructor.'
These terms are presented as they are used in traditional Japanese budo (I believe they originated in kendo). It is entirely possible that the use within the Uechi Assn. has a completely different history - anyone have any information on that?
greg
-
mikemurphy
- Posts: 989
- Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
- Contact:
Rank (again?) 2
Gary,
As you know, my students must submit an essay for each belt that they attain. I have always wanted to know what is going on in their head that they may not be showing or telling me. This has worked out extremely well for me over the years. As a matter of fact, I have been playing around with the idea of publishing a collection of essays. Does anyone have any ideas on this matter? Would it be worth it?
Anyway, back to the topic at hand. Other traditional organizations require a thesis or publication as one of their requirements for the titles of Renshi, Kyoshi, and Hanshi. Of course there is time and rank restrictions for each one too. My jujitsu organization (one of two to be sanctioned by the Imperial family of Japan), the Kokusai Budoin requires a thesis.
I like the idea and believe it should be made mandatory for all rank, but that is just me.
yours in budo,
mike
As you know, my students must submit an essay for each belt that they attain. I have always wanted to know what is going on in their head that they may not be showing or telling me. This has worked out extremely well for me over the years. As a matter of fact, I have been playing around with the idea of publishing a collection of essays. Does anyone have any ideas on this matter? Would it be worth it?
Anyway, back to the topic at hand. Other traditional organizations require a thesis or publication as one of their requirements for the titles of Renshi, Kyoshi, and Hanshi. Of course there is time and rank restrictions for each one too. My jujitsu organization (one of two to be sanctioned by the Imperial family of Japan), the Kokusai Budoin requires a thesis.
I like the idea and believe it should be made mandatory for all rank, but that is just me.
yours in budo,
mike
-
Gary Santaniello
- Posts: 288
- Joined: Thu May 06, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Randolph Ma USA
Rank (again?) 2
Greg: Thank you for sharing the meaning of those titles as you know them. They appear to be sensable in their content.
Certainly many of us hva some understanding of the titles now that we did not previously.
The definition of "Renshi" and it's reference to being giving with yondan and godan ranks seem to be more in order from my point of veiw. Certainly some "sandans" and "yondans" that are presently teaching meet the criteria. However, as you mention, it appears to be different in Uechi .
Mike: yes i do know as you mention of your strick requirements for rank in your dojo. Although i do "respect" it, i do not agree that all belt levels should "mandate" a thesis requirement. Could it be that you are a "school teacher" that makes you more demanding? Certainly your students are well educated in the art of Uechi. More so than most. My compliments to you!
Respectfully,
------------------
Gary S.
Certainly many of us hva some understanding of the titles now that we did not previously.
The definition of "Renshi" and it's reference to being giving with yondan and godan ranks seem to be more in order from my point of veiw. Certainly some "sandans" and "yondans" that are presently teaching meet the criteria. However, as you mention, it appears to be different in Uechi .
Mike: yes i do know as you mention of your strick requirements for rank in your dojo. Although i do "respect" it, i do not agree that all belt levels should "mandate" a thesis requirement. Could it be that you are a "school teacher" that makes you more demanding? Certainly your students are well educated in the art of Uechi. More so than most. My compliments to you!
Respectfully,
------------------
Gary S.
