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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Please allow me a few paragraphs to rant. It's been bugging me.

I am very lucky to have a lot of very talented people around me. Their talent (and character) is the glue that binds us together. But nobody knows everything about everything.

Fine.

But what sometimes gets under my skin is that instructors and dans will continue to display ignorance or ambivalence about things that we (or others) expect our juniors to know. A good example of this is the language of our style.

OK, I admit it. Very few people have the time to learn Japanese, or Mandarin for that matter. And given that natives are half way around the world, we don't have much opportunity to practice it. But you'd think most people would try when they see others around them picking terms up and using them. OK, I'm not the best speller in the world in English, but I do try when I can.

Let me be specific.

The following words are ones which I believe any dan worth his/her waist cloth has NO EXCUSE mispronouncing or misspelling:

Seiken - Closed fist
Boshiken - Thumb fist
Hiraken - Flat fist
Uraken - Back fist
shoken - Little fist

I have seen so many ways that people "spell" boshiken... And they continue to spell it wrong when in a dialogue.

And then there are the names and pronunciation of our kata. NO EXCUSE for not spelling them correctly. I'm not talking about juniors who want to post on the page. They are entitled to make at least as many mistakes as the seniors have. I'm talking about the dans who should be setting the example.

Part of the problem is that our pioneers (George in particular) started de novo in the style. The Way of Karate was a very good start. Uechi ryu karate do was an even bigger leap forward. But why stop there? This is the Deming generation, isn't it? Anyone out there heard of CQI?

Not all of us have access to primary sources like Uechi Kanei's Okinawan Karate Do, or Takamiyagi, Higa, and Higa's An Introduction to the Okinawan Traditional Karate. If you did, you might be able to look up the picture of a boshiken on page 342 of Uechi. Then all you'd have to do is read the Kanji and/or the katakana. OK, well you got me there. But you could find the same on page 50 of Takamiyagi et al. At least they have the romanji on that page. But...true...most people don't have that book, or care to own a book that is 99.9% in Japanese.

But there are alternatives. Trust me on this one. Alan Dollar's book is one of the finest in terms of its accuracy of terminology. Heck, I haven't found a mistake in the the Japanese terms yet, and I've found two English misspellings already ;-) Allan has done a fine job of translating much of Uechi Kanei's book. It is a MUST for your bookshelf if you are a serious Uechi practitioner.

And then you'd find the boshiken zuki on page 346.

And then if you'd look at page 347, you'd find the following paragraph <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Shotei zuki and boshiken zuki resemble each other. They are delivered with a thrusting forward motion of the arm, however the point of contact on the hand is different. Boshiken uses the hard knuckles of the thumb while shotei strikes with the soft heel of the palm against hard targets.
And suddenly, we are speaking a common language. And suddenly, there are fewer misunderstandings in our dialogue.

Yes, sometimes you have situations where the hand can go forward, execute as a shotei zuki, and squeeze as a boshiken. Or you can change your mind in mid thrust. And yes, sometimes we do the nukite zuki (spear hand) in kata, and close the fist to do soko zuki in application. Or do boshiken in kata and shotei in application.

But...at least now we're talking and understanding!

OK, OK, I'm off the soap box. Where's my beer?

- Bill
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

One final comment.

I am in no way suggesting that any one book I mentioned above is better than another. In fact, each book I mentioned has a gem in it that no other has. I wouldn't trade any of them.

All I'm saying, is get Alan's book on your bookshelf and use it as a reference whenever writing standard karate terminology.

When you want pictures of Uechi Kanei doing kata, or... or... then get another book.

- Bill
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Post by Evan Pantazi »

Ah Bill San,

I'm guilty of such ineptitude, do beg your pardon sir. I guess it's because being used to Kenpo/Kempo the use of a different letter in a given word was construed as a different Art's nomenclature. I guess I better start using english, although I'm not so hot at that either. That's why we use the Accupuncture labels for points rather than the Medical Termanology. Easier to say, spell and try to locate.

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Post by The Editor »

Dr. Glasheen:

We feel we should inform you that the initial signs of the condition that necessitated our "care" was the subject's near pathologic concern with semantics.

Indeed, his response to your latest missive:

Ratiocination upon the semiotic aspects of the sequipedalian points mooted warns against their flaucinaucinihilipilification.

demonstrates how severity of the affliction demands the sterness of care.

--Ed.
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Post by gmattson »

OK Bill, I'm guilty of fracturing the Japanese language. I've just completed writing 1000 Bushken is not a Boshiken tsuki. on the blackboard. Should have looked it up in "The Black Belt Test Guide" Page 280. Jon Mills did a fine job translating the most common terms used in Uechi-ryu back in '87.

On the other hand, Alan Dollar calls it a zuki. . . Guess we'll have to do a bit more research on this, or perhaps get Bill to drink Decaf coffee.



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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Boy am I glad people know me, and nobody takes me too seriously. Last night I was beginning to wonder. And George knows me better than myself. How did you know the "beer" was literarly license? Yes, my most offensive mood-altering substance is the evil caffeine. I've gotta change my ways!

Sorry to hear about your charge, Mr. Editor. I sometimes feel myself slipping...

And yes, on my way home I remembered that Jon Mills did indeed do a fine job on Japanese terminology in The Black Belt Test Guide. Ahhh...but that now means we have one fewer excuse for the transgressions.

Yes, Mr. Editor.

I wondered, George, if you or anyone else would pick up on the zuki vs tsuki bit. The answer to your question is that they are both right. This is what happens when you have a sound in another language that doesn't quite sound like anything in the English language set of phonetics. The choice of "zu" vs. "tsu" for the romanji is purely an issue of convention; the corresponding hiragana is exactly the same. At least that was what I was told in my Japanese language class way back whenever. Mr. Dollar does have an annoying tendency to switch from one convention to the other. Perhaps it's intentional, and predicated on the context (which sound precedes it).

Yes, Mr. Editor. Am I seriously afflicted because I found a first Japanese language mistake in Mr. Dollar's book this morning?

No, George, I've only had half a cup this morning.

But seriously, folks, my rantings aren't entirely caffeine induced. I found myself wasting a lot of time in a disussion on Van's forum trying to figure out what people were discussing in the first place. We are nothing but language on this forum. We cannot stand up and say "You know...this thigamabob." So we post for perhaps two days before Van, Allen and I all are on the same page over what we are talking about in the first place. With more precise language, we could have carried the conversation faster, and deeper. The semantics got in the way of rather minute details, personal interpretations, individual assumptions and preferences, and a broader understanding of what the heck all these techniques mean to us. It's a shame... I feel we killed the subject before it got interesting.

And I believe that we may actually be in a bit of a painful transition here, with no clear ground rules. What terminology should we use anyhow? I've tried my best to learn the terminology as I began to learn karate. I even got formal training in the language because of my karate. People around the world learn French terminology when they study ballet, and English terminology when they play baseball. Only the French become obsessed with the purity of their language, inventing new words for their own language whenever Franglais creeps in. Even (especially) for computerese! But then they never got over the fact that Napoleon lost.

So what of martial arts? What about Uechi ryu? Should we say front kick or shomen geri? Toe kick or sokusen? Front stance or zenkutsu dachi? Our language and culture are rich and diverse enough to absorb the new lingo. So far, most are shrugging their shoulders with indifference. But step your way through a kata like sanseiryu and tell me you have a good English name for each and every aspect of every move. I challenge you to do so!

I was trying to figure out what the heck Van meant by "open-handed" strikes in our kata, and was trying to go through each and every move of the kata. Took me two days just to figure out he specifically meant a palm heel strike. What are all the techniques to the head? Shokens? Seikens? Boshikens? Etc, etc. Dollar states "Shotei zuki is found in Kanchin and Sanseiryu katas." Fine, I thought, maybe Van is right. So I go through is book and the names of all the strikes, and there are no shotei (palm heel) strikes to the face. There is that leg takedown whatchamacallit. Hasamu taoshi. Whatever...(hasamu translates as interpose or hold between, taoshi as takedown). But it doesn't say what the hand position is. Every other "open hand" position is explicitly called a boshiken.

And Allen is very clear about differentiating the thumb from the palm heel thrust. And having studied Goju and had the difference hammered in my head...No, Bill san, no do Uechi boshiken at end of Goju sanchin! Hit with palm heel!

So, I think, is Van going through the same epiphany that Miyagi went through a century ago? Or are our kata, with their open-handed techniques, merely suggestive rather than explicit about the exact hand positioning? Is a nukite or a sanchin nukite an abstraction? (I sure hope so - haven't pulled my first heart out of a rib cage yet....). Is Van obsessed with cracking necks - because he can? Or is this Van-ryu vs. kyusho-ryu vs. grappling ryu interpretations and preferences in a broad style? And then I want to go on about what actual percentage of applications of martial art ever end up in - to use the vernacular - the chemical cocktail. What gross motor movements? Ever seen the slow, deliberate movement of Royce Gracie? Imagine him cut loose with a few of our hand tools as grappling weapons (as opposed to bash-em tools). Ouch!!

So much important stuff... So much imprecise language in the way!

- Bill


[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 10-31-99).]
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Post by gjkhoury »

Bill:

I believe you are on the money about this and hope to do something to help.

SLOWLY (ask Rich C.!) Yuko and I are working on a audio tape with current Uechi-ryu terminology, techniques and basic Japanese grammar & usage.

Look for it sometime in this lifetime!

Doomo,

Gary

PS: AND FOR CRISSAKES EVERYONE, STOP CALLING THE "ura-ken" a "RIKEN"!!! I'M LOSING MY F'N MIND!!

ok, I'm calm. . .
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Post by RACastanet »

My turn: 'tsuki changes to zuki when used with another word' - Dollar sensei's book page 328. He is not flip flopping, he is using the appropriate grammer.

My real bugaboo is 'sanseiryu' and 'sanseiriu' and 'sanseirui' and the 'seiryu' variants. Dollar sensei, Mattson sensei and from the old set of notes that I have, even Mills sensei were ambivalent on this one. Maybe in Okinawa there are three ways to convert the # 6 to romanjin, but I do not think so. Gary - any help here?

I do try to be grammatically correct if not linguistically and have corrected the notes of many into what I believe is correct for the technique. Hazuke instead of hajki is another error I commonly hear. And as good as Dollar's book is, I still do not trust it 100%. (Bill sensei: I'm convinced Daini Seisan (Kanshu) is literally Seisan 2, not Second Seisan despite Dollar's definition. Example: World War 2 is Dai niji sekaitaisen.)

Yes Gary, I am waiting patiently. I believe that I am using the correct words but one native Japanese told me I sound like a dictionary when I speak to him. Very understandable, but not really conversational.

Rich

[This message has been edited by RACastanet (edited 10-31-99).]
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Post by gjkhoury »

Hey Rich:

Yup. Sticky, every one of them. Let me try to add a few notes where I can:

1.)It is san sei ROO. Period. Let the linguists and others interpret the Madarin or the Okinawan or the Japanese pronunciation based on the day, the dialect, the weather or whatever, but all of the Sei-ROO "variants" are simply that: sei-ROO!

2.) "Hazuke" is completely foreign to me, which is not to say that it isn't among one of the million Japanese words I still don't know. If you're referring to the "cat's paw" block & strike combo, it's "Ha-ji-ki uke, hira-ken tsuki" ("snap block, flat fist strike").

3.) "Dai ni seisan" is actually the "second seisan". I'm with you on your thinking regarding WWII, Rich, but remember, some refer to the "Big One" as the SECOND World War, not "World War II".

There's AT LEAST a million more that I hear butchered every day, but let's start here. Oh, and for my wife's sanity, everyone PLEASE stop calling our system "Way-JEE roo".

It's Way-chi. The other (mis)pronounciation is like fingernails on a chalkboard to her!

Thanks. Remember her sanity is MY sanity!

Gary
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Post by Gary Santaniello »

I feel that it is important that we continue to use the "Japanese" terminalogy when discussing karate. However, all of us do not know the complete vocabulary for all of the blocks, strikes and kicks. I myself try to use the terminology whenever teaching or discussing the art.

I have seen "many" senior ranks teaching who do not use any Japanese terminology at all. I believe that it is do mostly to the fact that they may not have been taught it throughout the years ?
Yes, some of us do sometimes call a "Bushiken" a "Bushkin", could be that we heard it as that and know not the difference ?

Might i suggest as we continue to use the "Japanese" terminology we parenthasize the english meaning? Espescially for those who are not shure if they are using correct meaning ?

I would lik to see more usage of Japanese termsin advanced Dan Ranked people (at least) however somefeel that, we are American so why do we need to use Japanese language ? My answer to that is, to keep it traditional and be more knowledgable.

Respectfully,



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Post by Gary Santaniello »

Bill,

Why do we call a "Shoken" a little fist in terminology when it is actually a "single knuckled" closed fisted strike ?
Language translation error possibly ?

Also "Zuki" vs. "Tzuki", (zoo-key) is it prounounced any different with the "T" in it ?



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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Gary

Tsu vs zu? As I halfway mentioned (and Rich posted above) it is indeed a context thing. You know, like the differences in the way you pronounce the word t-h-e. It could be thee, or thuh, depending on the context. Or the differences in when you use the word "a" or "an".

Again, if I'm not mistaken, the katakana are identical. Correct me on that one, Gary, if I'm wrong.

As for the meaning of "sho" in shoken, well....you bring up a very good point. In conversations, homonyms will kill you in the Japanese language. Yes, there is a "sho" like you would use in shodan, and that means one or first. And then there is the "sho" that means little. How would you know the difference? Well you look at the kanji. The kanji for "sho" meaning first is a single horizontal line. The kanji for "sho" meaning little is a character that looks like a headless stick man with legs spread and hands plastered to his side. Not surprizingly, the character "dai" which means big or a lot is the same stick character, but with arms stretched horizontally. Characters are neat in that way - if you know the roots, you can actually figure them out, and you can still see how many of these roots have evolved from more detailed little pictures of the words or concepts.

So which is it, little or single? I believe it is little. I don't have either of my Japanese language Uechi karate books in front of me now, but I promise I'll look it up! Perhaps someone will chime in before I get to it.

- Bill
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Gary

My very first Uechi instructor, Rad Smith, was a New England export. You know, a Hahvahd man. Magna cum laude in English and an M.B.A., but couldn't pronounce a single word outside his native language. They say he had lots of help on his Spanish... Anyhow, he used to say the Way-jee thing too! I think way back then we were looking at the first generation of folks coming back from WWII. We were very ethno-centric back then, and Americans were the conquering army. In fact when Americans were helping to draft the new constitution of the defeated Japan, they actually considered making English the official language! There was also very little mixing of the ethnic types in our country several generations back. You and your beautiful wife would have been highly unusual in George's youth. My Irish grandma McCarthy used to always ask whether or not any particular "available" was Catholic.

Fortunately some of that European and Asian culture started to stick. And I believe our dominance in the world today is largely a function of our ability to assimilate rather than expunge foreign culture. Diversity is our strength as a nation.

But speaking of Way-jee, I hear through the e-mail vine that there is a certain corner of the south shore of Nova Scotia that has....well....another variation of the King's English (Y'all talk funny!). Anyhow, this person - who wishes to remain anonymous - says that they have their own unique bastardization of the name of our style - Wedgie roo. At least that's how she heard it first time she visited. She didn't have the....er....cahones to say it herself because she says they do body conditioning with boat oars on that little coastal town.

Hmmmm....Wedgie roo.... Can we imagine some of the techniques of that system? What would the hojoundo look like? The gis? The prearranged kumite? The body conditioning? I await further details on the description of this deadly artform.

- Bill
Shelly King

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Post by Shelly King »

Bill-san

Must thank you for bringing up this topic. The lack of consistency in terminology and spelling has been something of a pain in my side on the forums. Speaking as someone who is desperately trying to learn the Japanese words, it gets very confusing when there are so many seniors who keep using something different. Personally, I will usually type out the English description instead of using the Japanese just so I don't spell it wrong (afterall, engineers have never been known for their spelling ability to begin with.). I remember making a comment to a girl at work shortly after I had started training when she asked me if it was hard, I replied that trying to learn the movements was one thing, trying to figure out what they were saying was something else entirely. I remember during my test when I was being quizzed on the terminology and made the fatal error of mispronouncing a couple of words at which time I was then requested to begin spelling some of my answers. Big time embarrassment. I do however pay a lot more attention to how things are pronounced now.

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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Anthony

You are the second person today to mention the seilui thing. Part of the problem has to do with the fact that the Japanese "r" really isn't pronounced like the English language "r". When you say geri, it sounds like something inbetween J. Paul Geddy and spagetti. Or...maybe it's a spillover from those nights of Canadians singing drunk at our camps. Sei lui lui, ohhhh yea, well we gotta go now.

Sorry.

As for the Sumo uniform for Wedgie roo.... makes sense. Gives new meaning to that move in seisan bunkai!

- Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 11-01-99).]
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