In another thread, a reference was made that "kids" read this stuff. Dr X also make humourous cautions for "kids" to look away. But, seriously, I have no clue about how many "kids" frequent this site. Should we/do we have a responsibility to "protect" our kids from potentially "inciteful" or "provactive" material? Should we censor or self-censor what we may want to discuss in the world of martial arts or real life? Should we perhaps ask for ages of registering members and assign different membership status and different levels of access, though I don't know if this could be made to work on a pragmatic level?
For the record, I talk about violence and many other subjects with my 6 and 9 year olds. I may not be graphic but I talk honestly from my (as do my wife from her) perspective and experiences. The fact is they raise these issues because they are already exposed to these issues, not only from TV, but what they see in real life in the school, from seeing headlines of newspapers, etc.
I am curious as to what people see as being "appropriate" or "inappropriate" for open discussion in these forums.
david
Should We Implement "Ratings" and Different Membership Statu
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paul giella
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Should We Implement "Ratings" and Different Membership Statu
David,
Of course you know it would have to be me to be the spoil sport in this discussion. There is no doubt that children emulate the behavior of idealized adults. None more so than their parents, An honored Sensei comes in a close second. For teenagers, maybe even first, since few teenagers would ever acknowledge that they look up to and respect their fathers! (that comes much earlier in life, and much later; as Mark Twain wrote, when he was a teenager he used to think his parents were so dumb, and he was amazed at how much they had learned by the time he became an adult!) Remember the infamous Count Dante? One of the early crazies of the martial arts world, known for effecting his enigma of the cape wearing, sword carrying man-of-the-mysterious-east? Ended up in jail for life after he killed someone with his samurai sword, or something to that effect. What would your parents have thought if they had found a Count Dante videotape in your dresser drawer? What would you think if you found your child or teenager with a knife fighting manual? With a knife in his schoolbag? Good that they realize the world can be dangerous? Maybe. Are they adding to the dangerousness? Maybe. Does having a knife handy make it more likely to be used? Of course. Should we ban discussions of this kind, or ban adult students from studing or talking about weapons training (and here I am not referring to fantasy weapons such as sai and tonfa)? Not ban the training. In my view there is a place for it among mature individuals, just as there is a place for gun training for some people. But we have to find a way of being more circumspect, knowing that we cannot monitor who reads these words. Woe be the Sensei whose young student hurts or kills someone with a weapon and the prosecuting attorneys take him to task for irresponsible behavior. Lest you think this is impossible, recall that Kanbum Uechi himself is said to have had to leave China for this very reason. Maybe back then they didn't sue. Now they do, and your livelihood and your reputation will be ruined should such an event come to pass. Consider that there are other things in life that you may enjoy as an adult that you would find inappropriate to share with young people... let's put the knife-and-gun business in the same category.
Of course you know it would have to be me to be the spoil sport in this discussion. There is no doubt that children emulate the behavior of idealized adults. None more so than their parents, An honored Sensei comes in a close second. For teenagers, maybe even first, since few teenagers would ever acknowledge that they look up to and respect their fathers! (that comes much earlier in life, and much later; as Mark Twain wrote, when he was a teenager he used to think his parents were so dumb, and he was amazed at how much they had learned by the time he became an adult!) Remember the infamous Count Dante? One of the early crazies of the martial arts world, known for effecting his enigma of the cape wearing, sword carrying man-of-the-mysterious-east? Ended up in jail for life after he killed someone with his samurai sword, or something to that effect. What would your parents have thought if they had found a Count Dante videotape in your dresser drawer? What would you think if you found your child or teenager with a knife fighting manual? With a knife in his schoolbag? Good that they realize the world can be dangerous? Maybe. Are they adding to the dangerousness? Maybe. Does having a knife handy make it more likely to be used? Of course. Should we ban discussions of this kind, or ban adult students from studing or talking about weapons training (and here I am not referring to fantasy weapons such as sai and tonfa)? Not ban the training. In my view there is a place for it among mature individuals, just as there is a place for gun training for some people. But we have to find a way of being more circumspect, knowing that we cannot monitor who reads these words. Woe be the Sensei whose young student hurts or kills someone with a weapon and the prosecuting attorneys take him to task for irresponsible behavior. Lest you think this is impossible, recall that Kanbum Uechi himself is said to have had to leave China for this very reason. Maybe back then they didn't sue. Now they do, and your livelihood and your reputation will be ruined should such an event come to pass. Consider that there are other things in life that you may enjoy as an adult that you would find inappropriate to share with young people... let's put the knife-and-gun business in the same category.
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gmattson
- Site Admin
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Should We Implement "Ratings" and Different Membership Statu
Censorship of any kind is contrary to my beliefs. We all know that you can find ANYTHING on the internet and certainly posts found on these forums are tame by comparison.
The primary difference between a child stumbling onto a knife users list and reading a post on knives here, is credibility.
Reading something written by an unknown person may not carry the same weight as hearing it from a respected martial art senior.
I enjoy reading the posts on weaponry and would like to suggest a solution. How about if we set up a password protected forum for adults. Not sure how to determine one's age here. . . maybe members must know one another or be recommened by existing members.
Let me know and I'll ask Tony to set it up.
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GEM
The primary difference between a child stumbling onto a knife users list and reading a post on knives here, is credibility.
Reading something written by an unknown person may not carry the same weight as hearing it from a respected martial art senior.
I enjoy reading the posts on weaponry and would like to suggest a solution. How about if we set up a password protected forum for adults. Not sure how to determine one's age here. . . maybe members must know one another or be recommened by existing members.
Let me know and I'll ask Tony to set it up.
------------------
GEM
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RACastanet
- Posts: 3744
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA
Should We Implement "Ratings" and Different Membership Statu
Hmmmm...... I find this discussion perplexing. Yes, someone had a bad day and posted the events. Now, it is suggested we censor ourselves and the material. Create passwords and levels of control.
OK, who decides what is 'correct' for a site and what is not? How do we segment age groups? Should we have a site for the 'boys' and one for the 'girls'? Lori would find that interesting.
Leave it alone. Very quickly Van sensei's site would be blocked by the 'V' chip. Many of my posts would be censored because the word knife or gun popped up.
The beauty of the internet and our forums is the openess to ideas and expressions thereof, good or not so good. So far our self policing has worked well and the real flamers are quickly quashed and cast out. Let the young reader's parents do their job.
Please do not try to fix what is not broken.
Regards, Rich
OK, who decides what is 'correct' for a site and what is not? How do we segment age groups? Should we have a site for the 'boys' and one for the 'girls'? Lori would find that interesting.
Leave it alone. Very quickly Van sensei's site would be blocked by the 'V' chip. Many of my posts would be censored because the word knife or gun popped up.
The beauty of the internet and our forums is the openess to ideas and expressions thereof, good or not so good. So far our self policing has worked well and the real flamers are quickly quashed and cast out. Let the young reader's parents do their job.
Please do not try to fix what is not broken.
Regards, Rich
Should We Implement "Ratings" and Different Membership Statu
Paul,
Yes. I can trust you with a good post offering a different perspective.
I think a good quote to go with the Mark Twain one is "Sir" Charles Barkley's, "I'm no role model!" People jumped all over him for that, for being honest about the fact that his skills in basketball do not and should not qualify him to role model status. The same can be said about karate stars/senseis. I think I've said it before. I don't think senseis/sifus/guros, whatever, should never be put on pedestals. They are human like the rest of us and have their foibles. To do so is set to oneself up for disappointments and worse... I can truthfully say that I never hero worshipped any of my instructors. I respected their skills and was thankful for the opportunities to practice. As for Count Dante, some of us still have a good chuckle about him striking that funny pose he took in matchbook covers and comic books...
If there are to be heros, yes, they should be the parents -- good ones -- who demonstrate day in and day through their actions their love for their children. Again, talk is nice but they have better walk the talk as well because kids can see through the inconsistencies.
My father was a hero of sorts for me. We rarely talked. He work 12 hours a day, six days a week til the day he died. But it is the actions he took when there were family "crises" that stick in my mind. One of these was when he was driving through Chinatown late at night and seeing me in the middle of big melee. He dragged me in the car and silently drove home. Barely a word said. He was tired. He went to bed, got up the next morning and calmly talked to me about not wanting to see me dead or in jail. Of course, there were more fights -- nothing I would start but nothing I would back from either -- but what he said stuck and I got out of it (needless fighting that is.)
Some one said, or I read somewhere that "Parenting is the greatest leap of faith." In truth, I never thought I would make that "leap" and be a parent. Too much stuff out there to worry about for oneself never mind for one's own kids. But here I am the father of two. And I worry like hell for them. We constantly talk to them and I have more opportunities than my father ever did. Earlier on we talked honestly about the "dangers" out there. Nothing obsessive, but if the subject comes up, we talk about it. Ditto, with fighting, relationships, right and wrong, whatever... My personal approach is not to impose my perspectives on them but to help lay out the groundwork for them to develop their own. I don't put myself on a pedestal with them. It wouldn't work anyhow because they can see through my BS. The only thing I can do when they catch me at my inconsistencies is to honestly acknowledge them and apologize when I am wrong.
What would I do if I were to find a knife fighting manual in my son's bag...? I would want talk to him about it and assess his interest and why. Same with finding a knife. As it is, my study is pretty full with martial arts books as well as books on religion, meditation, camping, hunting and fishing among others. My knives are on a high self, my guns are in locked cases in a closet, my training weapons on a rack on the wall, and my fishing rods in the foyer. My sons have asked questions about some these and I have talked as much as they wanted to about them. So far, they have shown no interest in training or martial arts and I don't impose training on them. They are interested in shooting and I have pellet guns for them in Maine where they have learned the rudiments of gun safety and can shoot as they wish with supervision.
The only thing I can guaranteed with my kids is that I will maintain open communications with them on any subject they want to discuss. I trust they will develop the own sense of right or wrong as I have. I accept they will find their own way, as much as I may worry that they don't end up dead, or in jail, or something else in that process. This is just my way. My "leap of faith..."
Now, back to the point of what to do about unsupervised kids reading the material in this forum that may be "inciteful." I don't know. That's why I posted the thread and the question. I willing to try ratings, or limited access or whatever that is workable. However, I don't think we should censor the kind of post that Bill made, or I make even more of. Frankly, I think there is a need to present the "realities" to those martial arts folks who are in it for self-defense. There is too much crap and "self-delusions" about the "martial effectiveness" of the arts as being practiced by many. I don't believe my way is the only way or even the right way. But I am willing to dump it out there for people to read and take what they want. Just as I took what I can from the people I know/knew who survived, died or are in jail from the stuff on the streets.
I know I have had my share of "situations." As much as I have survived them, they shape my ideas and responses. Greg Postal once made the observation that I "seemed to attract trouble" more than most people and that there may be a "quality" in my personality. Can't dispute that and I said I needed to think about that. I would hope the adult readers would read my posts critically, evaluate it, and take what they want and can use out of them. I certainly hope they don't see or take it as blueprint for their own actions. In fact, I would hope no one in these forums are put on a "pedestal" and have their posts taken as the "gospel." That would defeat the purpose of these forums which is to share the many and varying perspectives on any given topic related to our "martial arts" practice.
Sorry for being long winded here. But I am willing to abide by whatever "rules" are developed for these forums.
david
Yes. I can trust you with a good post offering a different perspective.
I think a good quote to go with the Mark Twain one is "Sir" Charles Barkley's, "I'm no role model!" People jumped all over him for that, for being honest about the fact that his skills in basketball do not and should not qualify him to role model status. The same can be said about karate stars/senseis. I think I've said it before. I don't think senseis/sifus/guros, whatever, should never be put on pedestals. They are human like the rest of us and have their foibles. To do so is set to oneself up for disappointments and worse... I can truthfully say that I never hero worshipped any of my instructors. I respected their skills and was thankful for the opportunities to practice. As for Count Dante, some of us still have a good chuckle about him striking that funny pose he took in matchbook covers and comic books...
If there are to be heros, yes, they should be the parents -- good ones -- who demonstrate day in and day through their actions their love for their children. Again, talk is nice but they have better walk the talk as well because kids can see through the inconsistencies.
My father was a hero of sorts for me. We rarely talked. He work 12 hours a day, six days a week til the day he died. But it is the actions he took when there were family "crises" that stick in my mind. One of these was when he was driving through Chinatown late at night and seeing me in the middle of big melee. He dragged me in the car and silently drove home. Barely a word said. He was tired. He went to bed, got up the next morning and calmly talked to me about not wanting to see me dead or in jail. Of course, there were more fights -- nothing I would start but nothing I would back from either -- but what he said stuck and I got out of it (needless fighting that is.)
Some one said, or I read somewhere that "Parenting is the greatest leap of faith." In truth, I never thought I would make that "leap" and be a parent. Too much stuff out there to worry about for oneself never mind for one's own kids. But here I am the father of two. And I worry like hell for them. We constantly talk to them and I have more opportunities than my father ever did. Earlier on we talked honestly about the "dangers" out there. Nothing obsessive, but if the subject comes up, we talk about it. Ditto, with fighting, relationships, right and wrong, whatever... My personal approach is not to impose my perspectives on them but to help lay out the groundwork for them to develop their own. I don't put myself on a pedestal with them. It wouldn't work anyhow because they can see through my BS. The only thing I can do when they catch me at my inconsistencies is to honestly acknowledge them and apologize when I am wrong.
What would I do if I were to find a knife fighting manual in my son's bag...? I would want talk to him about it and assess his interest and why. Same with finding a knife. As it is, my study is pretty full with martial arts books as well as books on religion, meditation, camping, hunting and fishing among others. My knives are on a high self, my guns are in locked cases in a closet, my training weapons on a rack on the wall, and my fishing rods in the foyer. My sons have asked questions about some these and I have talked as much as they wanted to about them. So far, they have shown no interest in training or martial arts and I don't impose training on them. They are interested in shooting and I have pellet guns for them in Maine where they have learned the rudiments of gun safety and can shoot as they wish with supervision.
The only thing I can guaranteed with my kids is that I will maintain open communications with them on any subject they want to discuss. I trust they will develop the own sense of right or wrong as I have. I accept they will find their own way, as much as I may worry that they don't end up dead, or in jail, or something else in that process. This is just my way. My "leap of faith..."
Now, back to the point of what to do about unsupervised kids reading the material in this forum that may be "inciteful." I don't know. That's why I posted the thread and the question. I willing to try ratings, or limited access or whatever that is workable. However, I don't think we should censor the kind of post that Bill made, or I make even more of. Frankly, I think there is a need to present the "realities" to those martial arts folks who are in it for self-defense. There is too much crap and "self-delusions" about the "martial effectiveness" of the arts as being practiced by many. I don't believe my way is the only way or even the right way. But I am willing to dump it out there for people to read and take what they want. Just as I took what I can from the people I know/knew who survived, died or are in jail from the stuff on the streets.
I know I have had my share of "situations." As much as I have survived them, they shape my ideas and responses. Greg Postal once made the observation that I "seemed to attract trouble" more than most people and that there may be a "quality" in my personality. Can't dispute that and I said I needed to think about that. I would hope the adult readers would read my posts critically, evaluate it, and take what they want and can use out of them. I certainly hope they don't see or take it as blueprint for their own actions. In fact, I would hope no one in these forums are put on a "pedestal" and have their posts taken as the "gospel." That would defeat the purpose of these forums which is to share the many and varying perspectives on any given topic related to our "martial arts" practice.
Sorry for being long winded here. But I am willing to abide by whatever "rules" are developed for these forums.
david
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Kevin Mackie
- Posts: 671
- Joined: Wed Sep 16, 1998 6:01 am
Should We Implement "Ratings" and Different Membership Statu
There are much worse things on this medium that are harmful to "the children". Maybe parents should take responsibility to check up on what the kiddles are doing on net,( never mind in someone's house), once in a while.
Descriptions here of defensive confrontations in real life are weak compared to senseless violence depicted in most PG-13 films.
BTW, one of my son's (9 YO) favorite scenes in such a movie is the " now that's a knife!" scene in Crododile Dundee. Score one for the good guys!
Sh** happens, and sometimes its generally good to read about it here. There's no gore or mayhen written here.
I am totally against additional passwords, filtering, censorship or whatever.
I'm sure, David, that your proposal was indeed a "modest" one?
VTY,
Kevin
Descriptions here of defensive confrontations in real life are weak compared to senseless violence depicted in most PG-13 films.
BTW, one of my son's (9 YO) favorite scenes in such a movie is the " now that's a knife!" scene in Crododile Dundee. Score one for the good guys!
Sh** happens, and sometimes its generally good to read about it here. There's no gore or mayhen written here.
I am totally against additional passwords, filtering, censorship or whatever.
I'm sure, David, that your proposal was indeed a "modest" one?
VTY,
Kevin
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Tim Ahearn
- Posts: 162
- Joined: Thu Aug 26, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Charlottesville, VA, USA
- Contact:
Should We Implement "Ratings" and Different Membership Statu
Bill's post was self-reflexive and questioning; it approached violence and confrontation intelligently. It was not gratuitous nor did it glorify violence or himself. If our culture approached violence in the manner we see it approached on these forums, it would be a giant leap forward.
As for finding a knife in a childs bag, David's post says it best: The only thing I can guaranteed with my kids is that I will maintain open communications with them on any subject they want to discuss. I trust they will develop the own sense of right or wrong as I have. I accept they will find their own way, as much as I may worry that they don't end up dead, or in jail, or something else in that process.
Treat kids intelligently and with respect and you will be rewarded. Treat them like children and they will act the role. These forums provided some great information on the reality of violence--a sober antidote to the crap on TV and in movies etc. I would not deny anyone information they need to intelligently assess violence and make rational decisions about risk, etc.
Parents can monitor internet browsing habbits if they so choose. And I would urge everyone to do as David suggests: maintain open communication with children on any subject they wish. And if a child does visit this site without any supervision or communication about its contents, who cares. The information here does not glorify violence; it offers a reasonable and intelligent description of the realities of violence. The more one reads these forums the more one realizes that violences is not pretty, flashy or fun, that it can rip at the core of your person, and that you will get hurt or worse. This is the picture I would want painted to my kids.
I vote NO on a rating system and especially a separate "Adult" forum.
-Tim
[This message has been edited by Tim Ahearn (edited 11-22-99).]
As for finding a knife in a childs bag, David's post says it best: The only thing I can guaranteed with my kids is that I will maintain open communications with them on any subject they want to discuss. I trust they will develop the own sense of right or wrong as I have. I accept they will find their own way, as much as I may worry that they don't end up dead, or in jail, or something else in that process.
Treat kids intelligently and with respect and you will be rewarded. Treat them like children and they will act the role. These forums provided some great information on the reality of violence--a sober antidote to the crap on TV and in movies etc. I would not deny anyone information they need to intelligently assess violence and make rational decisions about risk, etc.
Parents can monitor internet browsing habbits if they so choose. And I would urge everyone to do as David suggests: maintain open communication with children on any subject they wish. And if a child does visit this site without any supervision or communication about its contents, who cares. The information here does not glorify violence; it offers a reasonable and intelligent description of the realities of violence. The more one reads these forums the more one realizes that violences is not pretty, flashy or fun, that it can rip at the core of your person, and that you will get hurt or worse. This is the picture I would want painted to my kids.
I vote NO on a rating system and especially a separate "Adult" forum.
-Tim
[This message has been edited by Tim Ahearn (edited 11-22-99).]
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Shelly King
Should We Implement "Ratings" and Different Membership Statu
I was raised in a house with guns and knives, grew up watching Chuck Norris and Rambo...have I gone crazy and blown away everybody at work..(granted the year isn't over yet)...but so far I haven't killed or maimed anyone. One of the foundest memories I have of my grandpa is when he gave me my first knife. Growing up in the midwest, it isn't uncommon for children to carry a knife. It's just one more tool you tend to have on you all the time. It's all in how you view it and how you are raised.
I think these forums do an excellent job of not only presenting the accuracy of the "real" world in terms of confrontations but in also stressing the consequences of any and all actions taken. It would be a shame to close off this kind of information to kids who were truely interested. There isn't anything here they wouldn't see on TV or a music video except perhaps the consequences of violence. And to be honest, there isn't anything here that shouldn't be covered in the dojo to begin with.
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Shelly
I think these forums do an excellent job of not only presenting the accuracy of the "real" world in terms of confrontations but in also stressing the consequences of any and all actions taken. It would be a shame to close off this kind of information to kids who were truely interested. There isn't anything here they wouldn't see on TV or a music video except perhaps the consequences of violence. And to be honest, there isn't anything here that shouldn't be covered in the dojo to begin with.
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Shelly
