He did a bad, bad thing...

[RACastanet]

I've spent quite a bit of time with William in the past few years, and have found him to be very much in control of himself. Moreso than just about anyone I've ever known. (Actualy, we have had some really interesting kotekitae on particularly aggravating days.) Therefore, reading his story really surprised me.

However, even I (also a well adjusted and calm individual) have had days when life has just worn me down to the point where my mental 'safety' becomes disengaged. Fortunately, like Bill, I have chosen to just avoid the confrontations even though I was prepared for them. And like Bill, it bothers me unless I have a talk about it with someone.

Isn't that what makes the forums great?

Rich

[Van Canna]

Bill,
Forget the Monday morning quarterbacking, although you know it is inevitable here on the forums and it would be “ de rigueur” in a court of law!

Yeah you could have said “ could I get back for a second in to finish my set” or “ could we share this together” as I usually do at my gym, but, I agree, there are times when s*** happens no matter how you conduct yourself because you are up against some f** moron!

Tactically I think you handled it very well, not escalating but sending a strong message you were not going to fold under the pressure he was putting on you! The turn about and stare was a sound psychological counter!

The retrieval of two “ objects” not readily identifiable in your hands was also a smart psychological move which must have worried him some! An outright display of a knife or gun would not have been [at least not at that moment]…there is a time and a place for that also!

Although you don’t say it, I bet at that moment you wished you had a large combat knife or a gun available! Usually people who have not experienced that primal moment cannot really understand or identify with the survival instinct mechanism that kicks in with authority and takes over much like the ape-man reaching out for a club! At that moment you had no idea whom you were dealing with, whether he had access to a weapon or what his demented and cowardly mind may have had in store for you!
You only mistake was not to have more of a serious weapon available if the need arose!

People would do well to think of Karate/martial arts as romantic pursuits instead of the ultimate in “self defense” toolbox! It should be approached only as a tool in the “force continuum” toolbox, but this will never sink in!

Yes you must think of the legal implications as we have many times discussed before, but at times all of that disappears in the haze of primal instincts if you are any kind of a man! You certainly acted like one!

You talk of annoyance when people do not expound on the benefit of the “cocktail”! I suppose you might be referring to my forum!
But we have discussed the benefits before; the cocktail is a powerful survival instinct and very useful only if people understand its mechanics and adjust their training and program their responses accordingly…trouble is people go in denial of it, keep on thinking it does not affect them because of their training, deny that they even experienced it in different manifestations,
And keep on deluding themselves as true armchair warriors!
The “cocktail” or body alarm reactions, vary in intensity depending upon the threat level and the make up of the individual and the ‘programming’ the individual has undergone! Hope you understand this, Bill!

As to what Paul Giella said, I agree! It would have been better to qualify the reason why a karate man, a highly trained one at that, found it necessary to go for a knife, lest people or kids get the wrong message!
Again, it is imperative to point out that there is a big difference between karate and self defense
And that karate is but only a tool in the required self defense “tool box”! This requires lots of detailed explanations, something most karate people are not qualified to get into or even able to comprehend because of the brainwashing of their “lineage” sensei!

Thanks for the opportunity for us all to learn and reinforce sound tactical responses!



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Van Canna

[Bill Glasheen]

J.D.

Interesting and amusing ponderings of the possibilities. Actually about 10 years ago I got "involved" in a fight in a 7-11 parking lot. Basically I was trying to disperse the crowd to prevent people from getting hurt, so I told them (truthfully) that someone just called the police. Turns out that the guy got fired from Pizza Hut that night. He almost got himself shot before the event was over. Another long, scary, and even amusing story. In retrospect, there's always something to worry about, and much to laugh about if you really think about the ridiculous behavior of angry humans.

Here's something else that is "typical". To be honest, I know I'd have a tough time recognizing him again. It sounds strange but true. I'm sure though that I will never forget that "look". I have no fear; he'll give himself away. And the license number? VA license YXX and 4 numbers. I didn't want to get THAT close to him when I was "negotiating" my position on the highway. I wasn't interested in unecessarily antagonizing him in any way (after the initial squabble in the gym). And...I didn't think to get his license number at the time. Big mistake. But...not too many Jeep Wranglers with that license number that might appear at our gym.

As to using material against me... Yea, yea, and some opposing lawyers will violate my dog if it means they win the case... I can only act reasonably responsible. I'm not going to hide in my house or obsess over what I say. My consciense is clear. And I'd rather be cross-examined by a lawyer than autopsied by a pathologist. First things first. As far as I'm concerned, my crimes were that I allowed myself to be a jerk (actually a mirror) and I wasn't "perfect" in my responses later on. I can live with that, and so can most judges. But I have every intention of learning from mistakes made.

- Bill

[student]

Yes, indeed, Bill; guilty as charged.
I am a lawyer.


student

[David Elkins]

Hi Bill,

Boy do I identify with this post. You have hit the nail exactly center mass in your characterization of this cretin as a coward. Although you do not state specifically, I assume that you saw him as a drug user. This observation if accurate, it further reinforces the assessment of him as a coward. This is a guy that imposes his self loathing on others via bullying behavior.

Can he be dangerous -- absolutely as any cornered rat can be. Everyone has given great CYA suggestions. Mine is do not take him lightly because you see him rightfully as a large infant with incomplete toilet training. Face is incredibly important to guys like this. The fact that he apparently didn't know the folks there is a plus. Ongoing gym pissing contests like this have concluded in homicide. I think usually this is a product of neither dog being able to trot on the the next shrub. That's not you.

I came close to tearing into a similar specimen (a runner up Mr. something or another) simply because he wouldn't open the gym for me when I forgot my key one early a.m. I settled for the Uechi glare and he got the message. Would I have loved to put him through the plate glass? You bet.

David

[Mary S]

JD-san..."My mamma didn't raise no fool". I want to clarify a few things about my night in question. Obviously my situation was no where near as stressful as Bill's but I think there was a clarity that perhaps Bill felt in his incident too.

Firstly I stopped my car in a well-lit area full of people. I also stopped my car so that the other driver had to stop hers ahead of me. My lights were on so I could assess from body motion what was happening in the car ahead of me.

My father was a cop so I do have some street smarts. I approached the car from the rear - very hard to get a "shot" off when you have to point off a sawed-off anything from a backwards angle in a car window (steering wheels, Festiva's are small ya know). One friend was behind me - two others on the other side of the car. I also knew that the these "girls" were very young and probably quite inexperienced...I would say the oldest was 17 - again I tried to assess the situation.

The driver kept her seatbelt on - which gave her less mobility while sitting. She had to turn around to talk to me. I did not lean into the window but made her lean out. Her door was unlocked - and she had turned off the car. I assessed all of these things in seconds, summed up the situation and saw I had the upper hand. Had I for one second felt I was in danger, if I had been alone, I never would have stopped my car, gotten out and approached the other vehicle. To have pursued the situation to violence would have only stroked my ego - not worth it!!!

Oh yeah, in my world, everyday is a bad hair day!!!

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[Sochin]

oops

[This message has been edited by Sochin (edited 11-23-99).]

[Van Canna]

Bill,

An interesting exercise here is in “debriefing yourself” …like what thoughts dominated the moments:

1] was did guy much bigger and stronger than you! What was the size disparity?

2] Did you keep him under observation as he worked out? Did he out power you in pumping iron?

3] Did his strength concern you at all?

4] did you find yourself positive about being able to handle him with your martial arts skills alone without doubts surfacing in your mind?

5] did you find yourself conjuring up some techniques? Did you feel comfortable about the use of pressure points, kyusho points at your disposal?

6] Psychologically were you confident you could take the guy in a dragged out fight alone in a dark parking lot?

7] did you feel any fear at all?

8] Were you thinking of defending against a sudden attack or were you thinking preemptive strikes if he closed the distance on you?

9] Do you think you could have used the knife if he had overpowered you just physically without weapons?

10] were you concerned he might have taken the knife away from you and cut you with it?




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Van Canna

[Bill Glasheen]

Thanks, Van, David et al

All the commentary is helpful and useful.

It seems "the faithful" (Rich, Tom, Ian) have been doing some research and pondering for me. I have some details about "the knife" (hide the children, J.D.) that are worth mentioning. Bottom line is that it's as clear as the Boston Harbor.

According to a weapons instructor and former law enforcement officer, in the state of Virginia <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

size does matter, and in a few cases, shorter is better.

But it's not quite that simple. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

We have no statutory law on this point, just court decisions and precedent.

The safest thing is to have an innocuous-looking (no searration) blade just under 3 inches. And as things like this would go, there are more protections for guns than for any other type of weapon. Virginia has a concealed gun permit law, but there is nothing to protect you for concealing any other item that could be construed to be a weapon. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

If the court, in its discretion finds that the person in the possession of the knife in question had the intention of "going armed", and the knife was "hidden from common observation", then one has committed a violation of Code of Virginia 18.2-308, and is subject to a fine of not more than $2,500.00 and confinement for not more than 1 year in jail.

Now in my particular case, I pulled both the knife and the cell phone out of a bag that was in the back of my van, and had no intention of concealing either. I did, however, have the intention of "going armed". Damned straight. But I did not unfold the knife as I felt that degree of response to my situation was not yet warrented. For all I knew, brandishing an unsheathed or unfolded knife could very well incite him to go grab a gun from his car (if he had one there). And as both Raffi and I have discussed above, the major intent was deterrence.

Measured response.... What a subjective issue. What a pain in the ass to try to accomplish in the heat of a conflict. I feel comfortable - given my circumstances - but I certainly could give myself a hard time on the witness stand if I were the lawyer and this "situation" had gone further.

Fortunately...I was banking on his consistency. And as I stated before, most bullys (and humans for that matter) are cowards at heart. He may have had size and he may have been "pharmacologically enhanced". But all I could see when he followed me out in the parking lot and then stop when faced was that little yapping dog that wanted to bite and run. Bastard! Can't do that to me twice!

- Bill

[Mary S]

From my spidey-senses tingling I feel that my last post may be interpreted as being "snippy" and want to (yet again) clarify myself. Not intended at all - (JD-san of course you know better than that!!!)

The only reason I responded as such was to note the clarity of the events of the evening in question for me. I believe Bill-san had the same clarity.


(seems to be something wrong with my 'puter today - very slow on the forums - must check to see if the hamster is still alive)

BTW - George-san I really like the new setup on the Uechi site!!!
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[This message has been edited by Mary S (edited 11-23-99).]

[david]

A word on "debriefing." After a traumatic incident, the mind is going to be dominated by the renactment of the event. How long this goes on depends on the perceived level of stress or trauma. It plays over and over, interspersed with the "what if's." I think self asking questions similar to those posed by Van sensei and trying to honestly answer them is a way to bring the mind back to "normal." It brings back the sense of "control", especially if one did not consciously precipitate the traumatic event. it tames the "what if's" which left unchecked become detrimental to one's sense of safety and well being. Self debriefing is the first step.

Debriefing with others is another step. But don't do it with just anybody, especially if they are highly judgemental or have "absolute" positions on physical conflict. They will not be interested in helping you, consciously or subconsciously. Rather they will give opinions or advice that serves to reinforce their own views/beliefs about should or should have not been done. In affect this debriefing brings on another level of conflict. You may want to do this later on but certainly not immediately after the initial trauma.

In debriefing with some one, the goal, I think, is to help tame the "what if's." The "rightness" or "wrongness" of the conflict can come later when one is ready. And it will come.

Just my .02, if it's worth even that.

david

[Bill Glasheen]

This is a very long thread. This is a good place to start the thread anew. See "Debriefing".

- Bill