I once read an article (can't remember where) about different martial arts and how there's a lot of striking arts that do basically the same thing, but do it in different ways. I got a chance to learn about this more when I visited a TKD school in town and I saw specific instruction to lean back when you kick 'to get more body power into it'. At the same time, in my uechi dojo, I'm being trained not to do that for basically the same reason.
I don't want to debate the different striking arts comment, but would like some ideas or comments on the leaning back thing from people who have more experience than I do. (5 months in uechi)
Adam
Leaning back for a kick
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Allen M.
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Allen M.
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Collin Warder
- Posts: 123
- Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 6:01 am
Leaning back for a kick
This passage comes from Hwarang-Do practitioner Bob Duggan. It is mainly about the Spinning Heel quick but the principles apply and I share a similar view on the subject.
<font size=2>From a mechanical point of view, the advantage to executing the kick in a tight coil is that the body weight is spinning in the direction of the target as opposed to "falling" backwards. The "falling backwards" technique relies primarily on surprise to achieve its goal. I would not argue with the proponents of this style kick that if someone is struck by a spinning foot, the impact is painful. But from a purely kinesic point of view, there is no advantage to dropping the body backwards. The drop causes the weight of body to equally divide over the Center Axis which would be a vertical line from the ball of the foot through the hip. Fifty percent of the body-weight would fall to the rear and fifty percent would spin with the foot, to the target. If you make impact, there is no doubt that it is painful.
However, coiling tight into the leg as you spin, shifts the body weight through the target. In sports, the closest similarity would be the figure skater on ice or the male ballet dancer executing a similar spin except the foot does not rise. When either the skater or dancer initiates the spin, they tuck their hands close to their waist and raise one foot off the ground. When they complete the spin, they shoot the hands and the foot outwards which brings them to a sudden stop. The obvious distinction is that the spin kicker is lifting his or her foot in the air in order to strike a target. Velocity would favor the body and its limbs in a tight coil towards the center of the spin, not flung outwards.
One other point needs to be observed: in the "Falling Backwards" style Spinning Heel Kick, the foot has already expired its maximum force at the point of impact when the foot is in a straight line with the spine. It is very easy to block the kick with a single hand when the body weight is falling away from you. The "Coil" technique causes the foot to accelerate through the target, because it is still under tension at the point of impact. Therefore, it is still accelerating until it aligns with the spine which is pointed beyond the target. That is, when you coil into the kick, the spine points more or less at 45 degrees beyond the target, and is under tension to release. The goal is to achieve a 100% shift in body-weight into the target. In this particular aspect, the Spinning Heel Kick shares the same body form or kinesic energy as the Hook Kick and the Round House except that it is much more devastating. No kick is more destructive than a well executed Spinning Heel Kick.
</font>
Hope you find it informative,
-Collin
<font size=2>From a mechanical point of view, the advantage to executing the kick in a tight coil is that the body weight is spinning in the direction of the target as opposed to "falling" backwards. The "falling backwards" technique relies primarily on surprise to achieve its goal. I would not argue with the proponents of this style kick that if someone is struck by a spinning foot, the impact is painful. But from a purely kinesic point of view, there is no advantage to dropping the body backwards. The drop causes the weight of body to equally divide over the Center Axis which would be a vertical line from the ball of the foot through the hip. Fifty percent of the body-weight would fall to the rear and fifty percent would spin with the foot, to the target. If you make impact, there is no doubt that it is painful.
However, coiling tight into the leg as you spin, shifts the body weight through the target. In sports, the closest similarity would be the figure skater on ice or the male ballet dancer executing a similar spin except the foot does not rise. When either the skater or dancer initiates the spin, they tuck their hands close to their waist and raise one foot off the ground. When they complete the spin, they shoot the hands and the foot outwards which brings them to a sudden stop. The obvious distinction is that the spin kicker is lifting his or her foot in the air in order to strike a target. Velocity would favor the body and its limbs in a tight coil towards the center of the spin, not flung outwards.
One other point needs to be observed: in the "Falling Backwards" style Spinning Heel Kick, the foot has already expired its maximum force at the point of impact when the foot is in a straight line with the spine. It is very easy to block the kick with a single hand when the body weight is falling away from you. The "Coil" technique causes the foot to accelerate through the target, because it is still under tension at the point of impact. Therefore, it is still accelerating until it aligns with the spine which is pointed beyond the target. That is, when you coil into the kick, the spine points more or less at 45 degrees beyond the target, and is under tension to release. The goal is to achieve a 100% shift in body-weight into the target. In this particular aspect, the Spinning Heel Kick shares the same body form or kinesic energy as the Hook Kick and the Round House except that it is much more devastating. No kick is more destructive than a well executed Spinning Heel Kick.
</font>
Hope you find it informative,
-Collin
Leaning back for a kick
Generally, leaning back will mean a loss of power in the kick. Think about your body mass going one way, while the lighter mass of your leg is going to target. The exception is the "spin kick" that Collin is refering to. Another seeming exception is the front thrust kick. In this the kicker looks to be leaning back with the kick but in reality the kicker is (hyper)extending the hip out to get more reach and weight into the kick but the body is mostly verticle.
Practice kicking with your body mass at least verticle if not slightly leaning into the kick. However, if you are not flexible, you'll find yourself leaning back as you kick higher to compensate. Looks flashy to the uninitiated, scores a point in a tournament but it lacks power (relatively speaking). In some cases the kicker falls upon making hard contact.
Stretch assiduously to develop the ability to kick higher. However, work to kick lower and stronger in application. Do bag work.
david
Practice kicking with your body mass at least verticle if not slightly leaning into the kick. However, if you are not flexible, you'll find yourself leaning back as you kick higher to compensate. Looks flashy to the uninitiated, scores a point in a tournament but it lacks power (relatively speaking). In some cases the kicker falls upon making hard contact.
Stretch assiduously to develop the ability to kick higher. However, work to kick lower and stronger in application. Do bag work.
david
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Allen M.
Leaning back for a kick
Hi Collin,
A tremendous amout of velocity can be developed in the spinning heel kick, a real boardbreaker.
There isn't a kick in Uechi-ryu that requires you to lean back, nor do you want to. Korean arts use different strategies and have a difference concept of kick delivery and how to deliver it. Different ball game.
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Allen, now at his new website www.ury2k.com
A tremendous amout of velocity can be developed in the spinning heel kick, a real boardbreaker.
There isn't a kick in Uechi-ryu that requires you to lean back, nor do you want to. Korean arts use different strategies and have a difference concept of kick delivery and how to deliver it. Different ball game.
------------------
Allen, now at his new website www.ury2k.com
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Collin Warder
- Posts: 123
- Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 6:01 am
Leaning back for a kick
Ok guys you aren't reading the post as I had intended it 
I am a student of Wing Chun and as I understand our systems are very simliar. I share your views on kicking.
I understand that what I posted centers on the Spinning Heel kick typical of Korean arts. Discard all that. What I wanted to show was the discussion of physics.
If you lean back in a kick, whatever kick it may be, you are distributing your body weight over both the front and rear of the Center Axis {planted leg}. In doing so less of your body's momentum is concentrated in the striking surface of your kick and less power is achieved. If you stay vertical or lean slightly into the kick you will achieve a greater transfer of energy and deliver a much more powerful blow. Your body houses tremendous potential energy. If you lean back while kicking then you are robbing yourself of power by sending some of that potential energy to the back of you rather than forward, into the kick. So don't lean back.
Allen I believe if you re-read the previous post you will find that Bob Duggan advocates leaning into the Spin Kick not back. The Korean kicking strategy as discussed in the segment of Mr. Duggan's article is in fact contrary to typical Korean kicking strategies. How is that a different ball game?
Adam, it's been my understanding, after speaking with several TKD and Hapkido Dans, that leaning back when kicking is a product of sportorizing the Korean arts. Leaning back looks cooler, makes it easier to kick high, is deceptive and lessens the chance of serious injury as a result of the kick. This perfect tailors to the tournament style TKD practiced today. I am sure that if we were to examine classical Tae Kyun we would find much less leaning back. I could be very wrong here
-Collin
[This message has been edited by Collin Warder (edited 11-28-99).]
I am a student of Wing Chun and as I understand our systems are very simliar. I share your views on kicking.I understand that what I posted centers on the Spinning Heel kick typical of Korean arts. Discard all that. What I wanted to show was the discussion of physics.
If you lean back in a kick, whatever kick it may be, you are distributing your body weight over both the front and rear of the Center Axis {planted leg}. In doing so less of your body's momentum is concentrated in the striking surface of your kick and less power is achieved. If you stay vertical or lean slightly into the kick you will achieve a greater transfer of energy and deliver a much more powerful blow. Your body houses tremendous potential energy. If you lean back while kicking then you are robbing yourself of power by sending some of that potential energy to the back of you rather than forward, into the kick. So don't lean back.
Allen I believe if you re-read the previous post you will find that Bob Duggan advocates leaning into the Spin Kick not back. The Korean kicking strategy as discussed in the segment of Mr. Duggan's article is in fact contrary to typical Korean kicking strategies. How is that a different ball game?
Adam, it's been my understanding, after speaking with several TKD and Hapkido Dans, that leaning back when kicking is a product of sportorizing the Korean arts. Leaning back looks cooler, makes it easier to kick high, is deceptive and lessens the chance of serious injury as a result of the kick. This perfect tailors to the tournament style TKD practiced today. I am sure that if we were to examine classical Tae Kyun we would find much less leaning back. I could be very wrong here
-Collin
[This message has been edited by Collin Warder (edited 11-28-99).]
Leaning back for a kick
And as I have a hand in one camp (WC) and a foot in another (TKD), let me stir the soup some.
I take Chung Do Kwan Tae Kwon Do; very similar in forms to Shotokan Karate. We lean into all kicks that I have practiced so far. But we are not primarily a tournament style, although our free-fighting is to Tournament targets only.
My Grandmaster uses some Tae Kyon as warm up exercises, and I'm afraid you lose. Tae Kyon resembles old Boxe Francaise: Savate. The kicking is not high and they do lean back for balance, as was pointed out earlier, I suspect the real reason is to get your hips and gluteus into the thrust kicks.
student - on his way to a lesson.
student - having completed the lesson and corrected some of the typos.
[This message has been edited by student (edited 11-28-99).]
I take Chung Do Kwan Tae Kwon Do; very similar in forms to Shotokan Karate. We lean into all kicks that I have practiced so far. But we are not primarily a tournament style, although our free-fighting is to Tournament targets only.
My Grandmaster uses some Tae Kyon as warm up exercises, and I'm afraid you lose. Tae Kyon resembles old Boxe Francaise: Savate. The kicking is not high and they do lean back for balance, as was pointed out earlier, I suspect the real reason is to get your hips and gluteus into the thrust kicks.
student - on his way to a lesson.
student - having completed the lesson and corrected some of the typos.
[This message has been edited by student (edited 11-28-99).]
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Leaning back for a kick
Folks
I believe that many have been dancing around the truth. And I share J.D.s love of folks using basic physics to describe the what and the why.
May I offer some summation and a little more here? I choreographed a kicking form some time back, and have taught it to students for years. I started martial arts after years of running track; kicking was my first love. I think I can help a little here.
The answer is...it depends. All have told truths. I believe I can tidy things up a bit.
First of all, I believe we need to differentiate between thrusting kicks (those which have linear force vectors from the kicker to the opponent) and lateral kicks (those that have force vectors coming at the side of the opponent). Examples of linear kicks include the front kick (shomen geri), side thrust kick (yoko geri) and back kick. Examples of lateral kicks include the roundhouse kick, reverse roundhouse, hook kick, spinning hook kick, crescent kick, and reverse crescent kick.
THRUSTING KICKS
As David pointed out, the main advantage of leaning back with these kicks is to allow a kicker with less-than-desireable flexibility to kick higher. There are styles (like Myo Sim) that consciously teach people to lean back - even in the front kick. Does this mean that the person will fall backwards when they hit something, or are off balance? Well....not necessarily. Everyone is assuming that the support leg is going to be vertical. But that's not the way the leaners do it. Instead they will shift their whole pelvis forward while kicking. Remember that the action/reaction forces are between the support leg and the kicking leg. The upper body is just going along for the ride. It is actually possible to kick with your center of mass slightly forward (like you want) while leaning back - IF your support leg is angled forward from thrusting your pelvis forward. Believe it or not, some of the Okinawan Uechis do this, but only a very, very little bit. Peggy Hess - who has traveled extensively and worked with many masters - has shown me some of this extreme pelvic movement in a Uechi-style front kick. You can make it work quite satisfactorily. And if you have a student who can barely touch his toes, it makes sense to do even a middle-area front kick this way.
But I agree with David - better to improve the hamstring/glutes flexibility. The major disadvantage of doing a front kick with a slight lean back is that you take your upper body temporarily out of the action. This - in my view - is less than ideal. I'd like to be able to hammer someone immediately who had jammed my front kick.
I would argue that a true yoko geri cannot be done without a slight lean back. No, I am not talking about the Uechi-stle sokuto geri. That's basically a front kick using your "foot sword" (the true translation of sokuto). A yoko (side) kick is an entirely different animal. To do it, your pelvis must break out of sanchin. In sanchin we strive to keep the plane of the pelvis parallel to the floor. In yoko geri, your pelvis breaks out of that plane. The only way to "appear" to not lean back is to compensate by arcing your spine back towards the defender. Someone with extremely good adductor (groin) flexibility and lumbar (lower back) flexibility can have their shoulders basically parallel to the floor while doing this kick. Most semi-normal people need to lean back a little. And if you read what I wrote above about doing the front kick, you will see how this doesn't matter. If your support leg is angled slightly towards the attacker, then all works quite well. The action/reaction between support and thrusting leg works quite fine, thank you.
Don't believe me on any of this? Try this exercise. Swing a heavy bag to and fro for a bit. On the return, try implementing a front or side thrust (yoko) kick. It's like nailing someone who is charging at you. This is an excellent exercise, and will tell you if you have good control and good force in your kicks. If you are coordinated and can do this various ways, you will find that you can lean away on front and side kicks (as described above) and make it work. Even a lot, if you compensate by bringing the pelvis forward from the position of your support foot. But...you will not be able to immediately follow with a hand exchange. There will be a finite recovery time while you bring your shoulders back into an upright position.
LATERAL KICKS
There are really two different types of such kicks.
One set has the plane of your pelvis parallel to the floor. This includes kicks like the crescent and reverse crescent kick. There is no good reason to lean away on these kicks other than having poor flexibility.
The other set has the plane of the pelvis at a different angle from the plane of the floor (sometimes even perpendicular). This includes the roundhouse kick, the hook kick, and the spinning hook kick. With these kicks - as with the yoko geri - the side of the ankle is facing to heaven. As with the yoko geri, I will argue that it's impossible to throw these kicks without breaking out of the sanchin stance mode. You need to break that parallel plane with your pelvis to get the correct lateral force trajectory. You are NOT directing force straight at your opponent, so there is no concern about a counter force back that will make you fall back. Kickers like Bill "Superfoot" Wallace will unabashedly lean back in this mode. He even throws his hand opposite the kicking side out as ballast for the kicking leg while he alternately kicks your head with roundhouse and hook. The forces you need to make this kick work are actually generated with a twisting movement at your waist, often aided with a Chubby-Checkers-like twisting with the arms. The force starts with the upper body twisting one way, and the counter force comes with the lower body going the other way. The hips, waist, shoulders, and arms help provide the torque.
Again, it is ideal if you have enough flexibility in your lumbar region of the back to arc your spine back up so that your hands can come into play quickly after the kick(s) is/are executed. But it isn't necessary - or even possible - to have a vertical spine while doing these kicks. Try it on the bag. As I tell my students, the bag doesn't lie.
Hope all that helps.
- Bill
I believe that many have been dancing around the truth. And I share J.D.s love of folks using basic physics to describe the what and the why.
May I offer some summation and a little more here? I choreographed a kicking form some time back, and have taught it to students for years. I started martial arts after years of running track; kicking was my first love. I think I can help a little here.
The answer is...it depends. All have told truths. I believe I can tidy things up a bit.
First of all, I believe we need to differentiate between thrusting kicks (those which have linear force vectors from the kicker to the opponent) and lateral kicks (those that have force vectors coming at the side of the opponent). Examples of linear kicks include the front kick (shomen geri), side thrust kick (yoko geri) and back kick. Examples of lateral kicks include the roundhouse kick, reverse roundhouse, hook kick, spinning hook kick, crescent kick, and reverse crescent kick.
THRUSTING KICKS
As David pointed out, the main advantage of leaning back with these kicks is to allow a kicker with less-than-desireable flexibility to kick higher. There are styles (like Myo Sim) that consciously teach people to lean back - even in the front kick. Does this mean that the person will fall backwards when they hit something, or are off balance? Well....not necessarily. Everyone is assuming that the support leg is going to be vertical. But that's not the way the leaners do it. Instead they will shift their whole pelvis forward while kicking. Remember that the action/reaction forces are between the support leg and the kicking leg. The upper body is just going along for the ride. It is actually possible to kick with your center of mass slightly forward (like you want) while leaning back - IF your support leg is angled forward from thrusting your pelvis forward. Believe it or not, some of the Okinawan Uechis do this, but only a very, very little bit. Peggy Hess - who has traveled extensively and worked with many masters - has shown me some of this extreme pelvic movement in a Uechi-style front kick. You can make it work quite satisfactorily. And if you have a student who can barely touch his toes, it makes sense to do even a middle-area front kick this way.
But I agree with David - better to improve the hamstring/glutes flexibility. The major disadvantage of doing a front kick with a slight lean back is that you take your upper body temporarily out of the action. This - in my view - is less than ideal. I'd like to be able to hammer someone immediately who had jammed my front kick.
I would argue that a true yoko geri cannot be done without a slight lean back. No, I am not talking about the Uechi-stle sokuto geri. That's basically a front kick using your "foot sword" (the true translation of sokuto). A yoko (side) kick is an entirely different animal. To do it, your pelvis must break out of sanchin. In sanchin we strive to keep the plane of the pelvis parallel to the floor. In yoko geri, your pelvis breaks out of that plane. The only way to "appear" to not lean back is to compensate by arcing your spine back towards the defender. Someone with extremely good adductor (groin) flexibility and lumbar (lower back) flexibility can have their shoulders basically parallel to the floor while doing this kick. Most semi-normal people need to lean back a little. And if you read what I wrote above about doing the front kick, you will see how this doesn't matter. If your support leg is angled slightly towards the attacker, then all works quite well. The action/reaction between support and thrusting leg works quite fine, thank you.
Don't believe me on any of this? Try this exercise. Swing a heavy bag to and fro for a bit. On the return, try implementing a front or side thrust (yoko) kick. It's like nailing someone who is charging at you. This is an excellent exercise, and will tell you if you have good control and good force in your kicks. If you are coordinated and can do this various ways, you will find that you can lean away on front and side kicks (as described above) and make it work. Even a lot, if you compensate by bringing the pelvis forward from the position of your support foot. But...you will not be able to immediately follow with a hand exchange. There will be a finite recovery time while you bring your shoulders back into an upright position.
LATERAL KICKS
There are really two different types of such kicks.
One set has the plane of your pelvis parallel to the floor. This includes kicks like the crescent and reverse crescent kick. There is no good reason to lean away on these kicks other than having poor flexibility.
The other set has the plane of the pelvis at a different angle from the plane of the floor (sometimes even perpendicular). This includes the roundhouse kick, the hook kick, and the spinning hook kick. With these kicks - as with the yoko geri - the side of the ankle is facing to heaven. As with the yoko geri, I will argue that it's impossible to throw these kicks without breaking out of the sanchin stance mode. You need to break that parallel plane with your pelvis to get the correct lateral force trajectory. You are NOT directing force straight at your opponent, so there is no concern about a counter force back that will make you fall back. Kickers like Bill "Superfoot" Wallace will unabashedly lean back in this mode. He even throws his hand opposite the kicking side out as ballast for the kicking leg while he alternately kicks your head with roundhouse and hook. The forces you need to make this kick work are actually generated with a twisting movement at your waist, often aided with a Chubby-Checkers-like twisting with the arms. The force starts with the upper body twisting one way, and the counter force comes with the lower body going the other way. The hips, waist, shoulders, and arms help provide the torque.
Again, it is ideal if you have enough flexibility in your lumbar region of the back to arc your spine back up so that your hands can come into play quickly after the kick(s) is/are executed. But it isn't necessary - or even possible - to have a vertical spine while doing these kicks. Try it on the bag. As I tell my students, the bag doesn't lie.
Hope all that helps.
- Bill
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Bruised Lee
- Posts: 80
- Joined: Mon Nov 29, 1999 6:01 am
Leaning back for a kick
I think the idea is not so much a "lean back" as it is 'thrusting the hips into the kick'. One way to decide is to kick a bag, air shield or other target. What way is the most natural for you that results in the most power is a good way.
In regards to a pure "lean back" - I have used it before as a defensive kick (aoiding an attack with to the upper body while kicking the attackers mid section).
In regards to a pure "lean back" - I have used it before as a defensive kick (aoiding an attack with to the upper body while kicking the attackers mid section).
