Mary
Torn gi tops? That's because they are wearing "wuss" gis. I now only wear gi tops (of a variety of colors) that are strong enough to grapple with. They do exist, although few companies sell them.
Don't nobody mess with my gi top and my blue suede shoes!
- Bill
Point Sparring
Moderator: Available
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Point Sparring
Mary,
Part of that era was really the relatively small number of schools and the general self-selection of those who participated. For better and for worse (and it was the latter for some), people didn't mind the paying the "physical price." I am not saying there aren't folks like that now but they are in the minority and the litigation potential works against them. As I was discussing with GEM this pass Saturday, the Filipino Martial Arts, in my opinion, retains the flavor of that ERA, as exemplified by the Dog Brothers full contact stick fighting, and some of the "un-official matches" that occur still. Here too, things are changing because of FMA's increasing exposure to the general public and resulting popularity and the good and bad that go with it. There is more and more talk of "ranking" in FMA's and certification. In the recent past and still somewhat true today, anyone can start a pickyourname Arnis/Escrima/Kali style/school. The only hitch is that they just have to prove they are capable of defending that name. And someone will likely test them on it. That was what it was like in past with the different karate schools. One has to prove one's school and style by fighting in tournaments and in some cases dojo stormers.
Bill, I can live with your proposal. I just have to brush on my kata (which two?), and the bunkais...
The question is whether anyone else is interested and committed in following through on it. In the meantime, I will just continue training with the small group I have.
david
Part of that era was really the relatively small number of schools and the general self-selection of those who participated. For better and for worse (and it was the latter for some), people didn't mind the paying the "physical price." I am not saying there aren't folks like that now but they are in the minority and the litigation potential works against them. As I was discussing with GEM this pass Saturday, the Filipino Martial Arts, in my opinion, retains the flavor of that ERA, as exemplified by the Dog Brothers full contact stick fighting, and some of the "un-official matches" that occur still. Here too, things are changing because of FMA's increasing exposure to the general public and resulting popularity and the good and bad that go with it. There is more and more talk of "ranking" in FMA's and certification. In the recent past and still somewhat true today, anyone can start a pickyourname Arnis/Escrima/Kali style/school. The only hitch is that they just have to prove they are capable of defending that name. And someone will likely test them on it. That was what it was like in past with the different karate schools. One has to prove one's school and style by fighting in tournaments and in some cases dojo stormers.
Bill, I can live with your proposal. I just have to brush on my kata (which two?), and the bunkais...
The question is whether anyone else is interested and committed in following through on it. In the meantime, I will just continue training with the small group I have.david
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Shelly King
Point Sparring
Ahhhh, Mary-san, still most hesitant in consenting to spar with you in July. How many people have you put in the hospital agian? Personally, I still don't understand the benefit of point sparring. Continuous sparring with rules for safety seems to me to be the better route. I don't think it's difficult to pick the winner during continuous sparring. If we are truely using kumite to learn and improve fighting skills then point sparring is determental. In a real fight you are going to get hit while you move in for a strike of your own. you need to be able to demonstrate that you can recover from a hit and still make it to the target. It shouldn't be about who gets the hit first but who makes the hit count. Points should be based on the quality of the strike: clean and controlled.
In any dojo you will have those who are willing to shed a little blood and those that aren't. That is why it is so important for individual sensi to customize each person's training...something that can't be done in gross market stip mall McDojos.
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Shelly
In any dojo you will have those who are willing to shed a little blood and those that aren't. That is why it is so important for individual sensi to customize each person's training...something that can't be done in gross market stip mall McDojos.
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Shelly
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J. Bellone
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 1999 6:01 am
Point Sparring
david,
You are absolutely correct about the Dog Brothers. Those guys rock.
Someday I hope to get out to one of the pack gatherings. Martial arts like it should be...
woof!
You are absolutely correct about the Dog Brothers. Those guys rock.
Someday I hope to get out to one of the pack gatherings. Martial arts like it should be...
woof!
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Raffi Derderian
- Posts: 635
- Joined: Thu Oct 08, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: Johnston, RI
- Contact:
Point Sparring
Hi everyone,
I'd like to throw in my two cents here as this is a pretty interesting topic. There are many angles to look at this from. Now it is true there is a lot of nonsense that goes on with point fighting. I have, in the past, competed in many of the open division division tournaments here in N.England. Yes, I agree the judges should be a bit more demanding with regard to what constitutes a "point". There are a lot of sloppy techniques that barely touche and it are called a point. However, lets examine the attributes gained by point fighting, if not in competition, then just in the dojo. For example, a good point fighter really does know how to explode off the line. The really sharp guys do this with incredible speed. Unfortunatly, at the end of this tremendous explosion is weak over the top back fist. Yuck. BUT..what if the same explosion had a solid reverse punch?? I am not an advocate of point fighting, but there is a benifit to doing it a little.
Mary, if you look at the tape of the sparring where everyone is "bouncing", you might see that when they are in tight, they stop. In JKD we tend to be light and mobile in the long range, but when we are in close quarters, we do tend to become "rooted" when throwing punches. This applies to Uechi ryu as well. I'd love to know if this is what is on the tape.
Later,
Raf
I'd like to throw in my two cents here as this is a pretty interesting topic. There are many angles to look at this from. Now it is true there is a lot of nonsense that goes on with point fighting. I have, in the past, competed in many of the open division division tournaments here in N.England. Yes, I agree the judges should be a bit more demanding with regard to what constitutes a "point". There are a lot of sloppy techniques that barely touche and it are called a point. However, lets examine the attributes gained by point fighting, if not in competition, then just in the dojo. For example, a good point fighter really does know how to explode off the line. The really sharp guys do this with incredible speed. Unfortunatly, at the end of this tremendous explosion is weak over the top back fist. Yuck. BUT..what if the same explosion had a solid reverse punch?? I am not an advocate of point fighting, but there is a benifit to doing it a little.
Mary, if you look at the tape of the sparring where everyone is "bouncing", you might see that when they are in tight, they stop. In JKD we tend to be light and mobile in the long range, but when we are in close quarters, we do tend to become "rooted" when throwing punches. This applies to Uechi ryu as well. I'd love to know if this is what is on the tape.
Later,
Raf
Point Sparring
There is real truth in what you say George. There's a lot of 'feeling good about myself' at the expense of others (I call it self-indulgence). There are reasons for it, buying into faulty stereotypes and style ethnocentrism (Hey, getta outa my way, I'm better than everyone else!) and a growing narcisism. It's unhealthy because it poisons the water, keeps people away and trivializes the essense, the spirit we work so hard to understand.
Some ways to get around this are no-nonsense practical business approaches that build on the best of the traditional things students want (including a rank system if they wanted it). However, you can only get at this type of understanding by being open to change, trusting, being honest and communicating from the bottom up. Taking a broader view, building consensus, reaching out. To bring people up and refuse to sink down to the lowest common level.
Someday, folks will realize they had it within their grasp to charge the same for a karate lesson as a private golf lesson all along.
Some ways to get around this are no-nonsense practical business approaches that build on the best of the traditional things students want (including a rank system if they wanted it). However, you can only get at this type of understanding by being open to change, trusting, being honest and communicating from the bottom up. Taking a broader view, building consensus, reaching out. To bring people up and refuse to sink down to the lowest common level.
Someday, folks will realize they had it within their grasp to charge the same for a karate lesson as a private golf lesson all along.
Point Sparring
I'm curious, what makes continuous-sparring any more realistic then hard contact point sparring? Let's be honest continuos sparring isn't full contact to the point of trying to knockout the opponent. So now your holding back somewhat so you don't get disqualified, and throwing techniques that aren't going to put your opponent down. So you can expect getting hit or kicked back during your attack, so how do you score something like that? Do you score for the person that hit first or do you score the person who is more aggressive? I would go as far as to say that there is a bias in continuos sparring that you don't see in point sparring. That bias being the aggressor usually wins in the continuous sparring match. In other words a counter puncher who never initiates the attack and always looks like he/she is always hanging back or shying away doesn't look well in the eyes of the judges. An aggressive opponent, even though he/ she punches aren't landing, could easily sway the judges in his/her favor.
Now I'm not saying point sparring as it stands today is better, in fact organizations like KRANE, which sponsor the types of tournaments that most complain about, are horrible. The way the rules stand now the matches force you to do techniques that would get you killed in real life or even in a classical tournament. Some one mentioned the flying back hand-o-doom. That technique should be outlawed from all tournaments and anyone caught teaching it should be shot. The Judges need to start calling points that are only clean, realistic techniques. And they need to stop giving into Hollywood Karate.
As long as a sparring match is based on good technique and not this off balance I need to touch my opponent first tippy tap crap. Then I don't see a problem with either the continuos or the point-sparring type forum. In fact I would lean more toward the point sparring since it's more definitive with out having to knockout your opponent.
Now I'm not saying point sparring as it stands today is better, in fact organizations like KRANE, which sponsor the types of tournaments that most complain about, are horrible. The way the rules stand now the matches force you to do techniques that would get you killed in real life or even in a classical tournament. Some one mentioned the flying back hand-o-doom. That technique should be outlawed from all tournaments and anyone caught teaching it should be shot. The Judges need to start calling points that are only clean, realistic techniques. And they need to stop giving into Hollywood Karate.
As long as a sparring match is based on good technique and not this off balance I need to touch my opponent first tippy tap crap. Then I don't see a problem with either the continuos or the point-sparring type forum. In fact I would lean more toward the point sparring since it's more definitive with out having to knockout your opponent.
Point Sparring
George-san...that's a very sad commentary isn't it...sigh...I guess I can always pull out the old video tapes and watch real sparring when I get depressed over things this...
As for the "experts" wonder how they would like to be on the other end of the stick..."My instructor only taught me point sparring and I was sure I would be invincible on the street. He did not prepare me and I blame him for this false sense of security and the fact I got hurt." (but hey, just watch me bounce!!)
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As for the "experts" wonder how they would like to be on the other end of the stick..."My instructor only taught me point sparring and I was sure I would be invincible on the street. He did not prepare me and I blame him for this false sense of security and the fact I got hurt." (but hey, just watch me bounce!!)
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Robb in Sacramento
- Posts: 181
- Joined: Fri Sep 25, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Point Sparring
Ms. Mary S:
Perhaps people bounce at tournaments because it works. It works for the reasons Dr. Glasheen has touched upon; the rules (and the judging or application of the rules) define the technique in a tournament. Karate tournaments are a modern invention. They were designed to get young Japanese university students interested in an Okinawan martial art. Karate tournaments share a similarity to judo and kendo tournaments. It is not surprising to learn that many of the Okinawan sparring champions are also accomplished judo or kendo players. Kendo players, as well as western fencing particpants, bounce. The bouncing allows for quick forward and reverse movement. It also allows for vertical expansion and contraction.
Why bounce? If it works for you, and your goal is tournament victory, why not bounce? Of course, if you don't give a rats putoot about tournaments, spar the way Tomyose said the Okinawans used to do it, in close, applying the kata. Or, for fun, spar multiple attackers...or spar empty handed against attackers with weapons...or spar with your eyes closed...in other words, make your own rules (in agreement with the folks working with you) and let your rules define your sparring. You know your body, your training, your town, your dangers better than anybody else, so you're probably the best person to make your rules of engagement for your training.
Oh, and Dr. Glasheen, quit blaming every ill in America on attorneys. We all know the decline in U.S. civilization began with the designated hitter rule, face masks in football, and the NBA's continued failure to call travelling or palming.
Peace,
Robb in Sacramento
Perhaps people bounce at tournaments because it works. It works for the reasons Dr. Glasheen has touched upon; the rules (and the judging or application of the rules) define the technique in a tournament. Karate tournaments are a modern invention. They were designed to get young Japanese university students interested in an Okinawan martial art. Karate tournaments share a similarity to judo and kendo tournaments. It is not surprising to learn that many of the Okinawan sparring champions are also accomplished judo or kendo players. Kendo players, as well as western fencing particpants, bounce. The bouncing allows for quick forward and reverse movement. It also allows for vertical expansion and contraction.
Why bounce? If it works for you, and your goal is tournament victory, why not bounce? Of course, if you don't give a rats putoot about tournaments, spar the way Tomyose said the Okinawans used to do it, in close, applying the kata. Or, for fun, spar multiple attackers...or spar empty handed against attackers with weapons...or spar with your eyes closed...in other words, make your own rules (in agreement with the folks working with you) and let your rules define your sparring. You know your body, your training, your town, your dangers better than anybody else, so you're probably the best person to make your rules of engagement for your training.
Oh, and Dr. Glasheen, quit blaming every ill in America on attorneys. We all know the decline in U.S. civilization began with the designated hitter rule, face masks in football, and the NBA's continued failure to call travelling or palming.
Peace,
Robb in Sacramento
Point Sparring
Very interesting that so many people have so many opinions on this subject....
Firstly, Bill ... heavy weight Mikado gi top torn beyond repair in a continuous sparring match involving two heavy weight black belts...girls in audience enjoyed the sight very much indeed (I have it on video tape and the squeals are too funny!!!!) Oh yeah, and to top it off it was an excellent match!!!
At another tourney some guy's gi pants were ripped - it's simply amazing what one can do with duct tape (and yes, this was heavy quality gi too). Seems to not be the fabric though as much as the stitching...
Secondly, why not train for both types of sparring? Open competitions would probably involve point sparring and then have a "closed" invitational Uechi tourney every once in awhile to keep the crazies happy with continuous sparring. Most would be happy to sign a waiver.
Raffi .... yes, some...few, (very few), became "rooted" when they delivered a strike...this sparring was good, in fact some was amazing, but more just were airborne and screaming... that's not what I call sparring. And some just (here's that word again) bounced up and down till time ran out...and I found that to be too linear... (BTW I hate the DH rule!!!)
Lastly Robb - you say that martial arts tournaments are a modern invention. I have heard and read stories of dojos visiting other dojos in the past (i.e. early 1900's) to demonstrate their skill and techniques.
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Firstly, Bill ... heavy weight Mikado gi top torn beyond repair in a continuous sparring match involving two heavy weight black belts...girls in audience enjoyed the sight very much indeed (I have it on video tape and the squeals are too funny!!!!) Oh yeah, and to top it off it was an excellent match!!!
At another tourney some guy's gi pants were ripped - it's simply amazing what one can do with duct tape (and yes, this was heavy quality gi too). Seems to not be the fabric though as much as the stitching...
Secondly, why not train for both types of sparring? Open competitions would probably involve point sparring and then have a "closed" invitational Uechi tourney every once in awhile to keep the crazies happy with continuous sparring. Most would be happy to sign a waiver.
Raffi .... yes, some...few, (very few), became "rooted" when they delivered a strike...this sparring was good, in fact some was amazing, but more just were airborne and screaming... that's not what I call sparring. And some just (here's that word again) bounced up and down till time ran out...and I found that to be too linear... (BTW I hate the DH rule!!!)
Lastly Robb - you say that martial arts tournaments are a modern invention. I have heard and read stories of dojos visiting other dojos in the past (i.e. early 1900's) to demonstrate their skill and techniques.
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Point Sparring
Mary
Wuss gis!!! Actually, I think your boys are trying to impress the ladies (or others) with their manly martial bodies.
Nope, anything that is labeled a "karate gi" really isn't suited for what I like to think of as real Uechi fighting. The judo players, jiujitsu and aikido practitioners wear a gi top that's made so that you can toss a person around by their collar without consequence. In my book, we Uechika should be using our open hands (as it sounds like you good NS people do) to grab and toss the opponent. And this goes for legs too. Actually a decent judo gi has no particular reinforcement in the legs.
No, what I'm talking about is sold by Kwon. I've received a lot of ribbing from folks about my green gis. But it's not just the color that makes me wear these things outdoors at camp. If you look closely at this gi, you will see the collar is as strong as a judo gi, and there is reinforcement (extra layers of material and stitching) in the upper body and under the arms. The gi bottom is similarly reinforced at the waist and crotch. It also has wide loops around the waist so you can put a leather belt on, but it has both an elastic waist and a thick, shoe-string-like drawstring. The green gi used to be called a "work gi". They have changed the name of it, and also now sell it in white. I believe the last time I ordered a white version of this, they called it a "Self defense" gi or uniform. I have worn the best gis through the years and I eventually wear them out AT LEAST at the seams. I have yet to wear out one of these self defense gis, and I now have some big gentlemen tossing me around.
But...I wouldn't want to stifle your lascivious cravings.
- Bill
Wuss gis!!! Actually, I think your boys are trying to impress the ladies (or others) with their manly martial bodies.
Nope, anything that is labeled a "karate gi" really isn't suited for what I like to think of as real Uechi fighting. The judo players, jiujitsu and aikido practitioners wear a gi top that's made so that you can toss a person around by their collar without consequence. In my book, we Uechika should be using our open hands (as it sounds like you good NS people do) to grab and toss the opponent. And this goes for legs too. Actually a decent judo gi has no particular reinforcement in the legs.
No, what I'm talking about is sold by Kwon. I've received a lot of ribbing from folks about my green gis. But it's not just the color that makes me wear these things outdoors at camp. If you look closely at this gi, you will see the collar is as strong as a judo gi, and there is reinforcement (extra layers of material and stitching) in the upper body and under the arms. The gi bottom is similarly reinforced at the waist and crotch. It also has wide loops around the waist so you can put a leather belt on, but it has both an elastic waist and a thick, shoe-string-like drawstring. The green gi used to be called a "work gi". They have changed the name of it, and also now sell it in white. I believe the last time I ordered a white version of this, they called it a "Self defense" gi or uniform. I have worn the best gis through the years and I eventually wear them out AT LEAST at the seams. I have yet to wear out one of these self defense gis, and I now have some big gentlemen tossing me around.
But...I wouldn't want to stifle your lascivious cravings.
- Bill
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J. Bellone
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 1999 6:01 am
Point Sparring
Hi Bill,
Another good Gi is made by a company called Howard's Kombat Kimono's (don't laugh, I'm serious). I believe Jimmy Pedro (bronze '96 Olympics Judo, current World Champion and best American hopeful for Judo in Sydney) endorses Kwon. You stand in pretty good company my friend!
Howard Liu (the owner of Howard's Combat Kimono's) makes Jiu-Jitsu gi's. He has a "Hot Weather" gi that very much has the feel and look of a traditional Karate gi. These puppies will not rip.
Howard's site is www.hck.com
Joe
Another good Gi is made by a company called Howard's Kombat Kimono's (don't laugh, I'm serious). I believe Jimmy Pedro (bronze '96 Olympics Judo, current World Champion and best American hopeful for Judo in Sydney) endorses Kwon. You stand in pretty good company my friend!
Howard Liu (the owner of Howard's Combat Kimono's) makes Jiu-Jitsu gi's. He has a "Hot Weather" gi that very much has the feel and look of a traditional Karate gi. These puppies will not rip.
Howard's site is www.hck.com
Joe
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J. Bellone
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 1999 6:01 am
Point Sparring
Thanks Tim!
Sorry about the wrong URL.
Joe
Sorry about the wrong URL.
Joe
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Shelly King
Point Sparring
Why does it seem every thread we have going keeps coming back to what people are wearing?
Anyway, check the archives...we had a very lengthy discussion on gi's a few months ago.
Can we discuss sparring...please?
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Shelly
Anyway, check the archives...we had a very lengthy discussion on gi's a few months ago.
Can we discuss sparring...please?
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Shelly
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Point Sparring
Shelly
First of all, many of the references to attire in various threads are metaphors for inside jokes. And the moderator allows (and encourages) tasteful humor.
Secondly, attire and the use of it has everything to do with sparring. If you have not dabbled in the grappling arts, I can understand why the relevance of these particular references might not be immediately obvious. Perhaps watching a judo match would make you understand. To folks who have done the judo/jiujitsu/aikido/sambo/shute thing, Uechiryu appears to be a VERY different art from what many of the Okinawans practice.
- Bill
First of all, many of the references to attire in various threads are metaphors for inside jokes. And the moderator allows (and encourages) tasteful humor.
Secondly, attire and the use of it has everything to do with sparring. If you have not dabbled in the grappling arts, I can understand why the relevance of these particular references might not be immediately obvious. Perhaps watching a judo match would make you understand. To folks who have done the judo/jiujitsu/aikido/sambo/shute thing, Uechiryu appears to be a VERY different art from what many of the Okinawans practice.
- Bill
