I watched a Uechi tournament video last night and noticed that the sparring was all point form. I wonder why we do this...bounce, bounce, bounce business. Whatever happened to being grounded on the floor?
Why do we point spar? Why don't most tournaments go for continuous sparring?
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Point Sparring
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Bill Glasheen
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This from an innocent shodan. It reminds me of the story of the child that asked why the king was wearing no clothes. It seems that in this style (as in many), you have to be a junior or a senior-senior to ask all the hard questions. The rest are too busy being sheep.
Irreverence aside, it is a question worthy of discussion. I'll opine a bit myself here.
First of all, sparring is a sophisticated game of tag - period. To use a "Gumpism", it is what it is. On the one side we have those that say that you aren't a real (wo)man if you don't don the gear and test your mettle in the ring. On the other side, you have those that say that real (wo)men don't do this sissy stuff with so many rules. The truth? It's not really either extreme. Sparring is a means to an end. It helps people learn how to be spontaneous, and how to improvise sequences. It teaches you how to implement karate moves against an uncooperative partner. And with the rules, you have some less-than-expected probability of incurring a permanent, debilatating injury.
But there's no free lunch. Any time you have rules, you don't really have a fight. Any time you have rules, you have the potential of creeping artifacts in fighting habits. So with the right set of rules, you see leaping, flying backhand strikes-o-doom. Or multiple roundhouse kicks to the face while one's "Johnson" is happily airing out (I knew there was a practical reason for that).
As for the bouncing, well...it's western boxing creeping into the karate sparring ring. The purpose of being "light footed" is to be mobile. Mobility means your blocking is a redundant activity. Mobility means you can close the gap between you and the opponent quickly. But unfortunately most carry this to an extreme. The adrenaline that comes with the moment tends to make people raise their center of gravity - to bounce and bob too much. In my humble opinion, a lot of bouncing is energy-sapping activity - even in the boxing ring. The seasoned pros in boxing don't bounce that much. Young fighters that watch too much TV and had too much caffeine that morning bounce too much. Perhaps a restroom trip would have solved the problem....
As for why we don't do continuous sparring, well here's another really good question. I believe other experienced tournament fighters will have their opinions. I'll give a few, some or all of which are probably on the mark:
* Most of the rest of the karate community does point sparring. If we don't use rules like the WKF rules, then we may become isolationists and never test ourselves in the greater martial arts community. But then we could be Tai boxers and be able to kick the crap out of most any other stylist and not really care... We could be leaders (heaven forbid) and try to show the rest of the martial arts communtity..er...wha... OK, I'll shut up.
* Continuous motion tournaments are a lot more difficult to judge. Without clear rules about how to score, judging becomes a very subjective activity. And we have a hard enough time properly training point tournament judges... It's really a tragedy!
* Unlike up where you are in the Great White North, we US folks are rapidly becoming weenies in the sparring ring because we are fearful that Johnny is going to skin his knees and sue everyone in sight. Too many lawyers in this country with too little to do. We need to send more of these bright people into medicine and engineering! But then I'm biased... So...we are afraid to do anything new or different because Johnny's lawyer might call Jhoon Rhee in as an expert witness and he'll testify that there's no precedent in this country for doing the dangerous kind of sparring we do, etc, etc ad nauseum.
Don't get me started....
- Bill
Irreverence aside, it is a question worthy of discussion. I'll opine a bit myself here.
First of all, sparring is a sophisticated game of tag - period. To use a "Gumpism", it is what it is. On the one side we have those that say that you aren't a real (wo)man if you don't don the gear and test your mettle in the ring. On the other side, you have those that say that real (wo)men don't do this sissy stuff with so many rules. The truth? It's not really either extreme. Sparring is a means to an end. It helps people learn how to be spontaneous, and how to improvise sequences. It teaches you how to implement karate moves against an uncooperative partner. And with the rules, you have some less-than-expected probability of incurring a permanent, debilatating injury.
But there's no free lunch. Any time you have rules, you don't really have a fight. Any time you have rules, you have the potential of creeping artifacts in fighting habits. So with the right set of rules, you see leaping, flying backhand strikes-o-doom. Or multiple roundhouse kicks to the face while one's "Johnson" is happily airing out (I knew there was a practical reason for that).
As for the bouncing, well...it's western boxing creeping into the karate sparring ring. The purpose of being "light footed" is to be mobile. Mobility means your blocking is a redundant activity. Mobility means you can close the gap between you and the opponent quickly. But unfortunately most carry this to an extreme. The adrenaline that comes with the moment tends to make people raise their center of gravity - to bounce and bob too much. In my humble opinion, a lot of bouncing is energy-sapping activity - even in the boxing ring. The seasoned pros in boxing don't bounce that much. Young fighters that watch too much TV and had too much caffeine that morning bounce too much. Perhaps a restroom trip would have solved the problem....
As for why we don't do continuous sparring, well here's another really good question. I believe other experienced tournament fighters will have their opinions. I'll give a few, some or all of which are probably on the mark:
* Most of the rest of the karate community does point sparring. If we don't use rules like the WKF rules, then we may become isolationists and never test ourselves in the greater martial arts community. But then we could be Tai boxers and be able to kick the crap out of most any other stylist and not really care... We could be leaders (heaven forbid) and try to show the rest of the martial arts communtity..er...wha... OK, I'll shut up.
* Continuous motion tournaments are a lot more difficult to judge. Without clear rules about how to score, judging becomes a very subjective activity. And we have a hard enough time properly training point tournament judges... It's really a tragedy!
* Unlike up where you are in the Great White North, we US folks are rapidly becoming weenies in the sparring ring because we are fearful that Johnny is going to skin his knees and sue everyone in sight. Too many lawyers in this country with too little to do. We need to send more of these bright people into medicine and engineering! But then I'm biased... So...we are afraid to do anything new or different because Johnny's lawyer might call Jhoon Rhee in as an expert witness and he'll testify that there's no precedent in this country for doing the dangerous kind of sparring we do, etc, etc ad nauseum.
Don't get me started....
- Bill
Point Sparring
But where is the realism?
Is point sparring going to save your butt on the street? I can guarantee you dollars to donuts I wouldn't be standing in a dark alley bouncing in front of some guy with a knife... and I am not all that sure I agree with you about it being harder to see who is winning, Anthony.
We have always had adult tourney sparring as continuous action and I would say nine times out of ten it is easy to pick the winner... besides in the point sparring I have seen (and I'm hope it's not all like this) it seems that whoever gets their kiai off quickest and loudest is the winner. At least with continuous sparring I think you have a better sense of when there has been an actual strike. Not just somebody out there yelling their heads off...and bouncing up and down.
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Is point sparring going to save your butt on the street? I can guarantee you dollars to donuts I wouldn't be standing in a dark alley bouncing in front of some guy with a knife... and I am not all that sure I agree with you about it being harder to see who is winning, Anthony.
We have always had adult tourney sparring as continuous action and I would say nine times out of ten it is easy to pick the winner... besides in the point sparring I have seen (and I'm hope it's not all like this) it seems that whoever gets their kiai off quickest and loudest is the winner. At least with continuous sparring I think you have a better sense of when there has been an actual strike. Not just somebody out there yelling their heads off...and bouncing up and down.
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Bill Glasheen
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Mary
There's another ugly truth here, hidden in what I wrote above.
In the seventies and eighties, most of the seniors, senior-seniors, and S-S-S's were too busy obsessing over who was micturating in whose begonia patch. In the mean time, other styles (like taequondo) were better organized and more motivated, and set the precedent for how people spar. And now we all follow their example - for better or for worse.
There's a lesson here. We in the greater sanchin community can work together and do great things.... We can create venues that showcase our style and the way we think things should be done. Or we can Balkanize our style, create all our own fiefdoms with our own 10th dans, and declare ourselves masters of our tiny neighborhoods. And all the great things will be done by other styles. And we will all start to look like McKarate.
- Bill
There's another ugly truth here, hidden in what I wrote above.
In the seventies and eighties, most of the seniors, senior-seniors, and S-S-S's were too busy obsessing over who was micturating in whose begonia patch. In the mean time, other styles (like taequondo) were better organized and more motivated, and set the precedent for how people spar. And now we all follow their example - for better or for worse.
There's a lesson here. We in the greater sanchin community can work together and do great things.... We can create venues that showcase our style and the way we think things should be done. Or we can Balkanize our style, create all our own fiefdoms with our own 10th dans, and declare ourselves masters of our tiny neighborhoods. And all the great things will be done by other styles. And we will all start to look like McKarate.
- Bill
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Bill Glasheen
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I'd like to add that I happen to know the tournament Mary observed on tape was not one of the New England championships. However...I have heard similar comments from non-Uechi people who have watched tapes of these May New England Uechi tournaments. What's my point? Nobody escapes the "guilty as charged" label in this discussion. We all know what all these tournaments look like.
- Bill
- Bill
Point Sparring
Bill I want to comment on your:
"we are afraid to do anything new or different because Johnny's lawyer might call Jhoon Rhee in as an expert witness and he'll testify that there's no precedent in this country for doing the dangerous kind of sparring we do"
Are you saying here that there is no danger in point sparring? I did see some pretty heavy hard contact in the point sparring but I also think it sets a very dangerous precedent when one is on the street in a real situation and waiting for someone to call a point...and chances are we all know that one strike isn't going to stop someone intent on doing damage. There are no points in the real world and we should be prepared for that situation as much as possible don't you think?
Yes, of course there are rules in continuous sparring (no kicks to the groin, controlled head contact, no eye gouging, fish-hooking (hmmm UFC?)and the like) but (and here a little story) I remember sparring one night with a TKD student who punched me once in the chest, kiai'd and turned away. I asked him where he was going and he got a puzzled look on his face. I told him that as long as I was standing it wasn't over and he should never turn his back on me...would he do that in the street? I think that is what sparring is (or should be) all about...
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"we are afraid to do anything new or different because Johnny's lawyer might call Jhoon Rhee in as an expert witness and he'll testify that there's no precedent in this country for doing the dangerous kind of sparring we do"
Are you saying here that there is no danger in point sparring? I did see some pretty heavy hard contact in the point sparring but I also think it sets a very dangerous precedent when one is on the street in a real situation and waiting for someone to call a point...and chances are we all know that one strike isn't going to stop someone intent on doing damage. There are no points in the real world and we should be prepared for that situation as much as possible don't you think?
Yes, of course there are rules in continuous sparring (no kicks to the groin, controlled head contact, no eye gouging, fish-hooking (hmmm UFC?)and the like) but (and here a little story) I remember sparring one night with a TKD student who punched me once in the chest, kiai'd and turned away. I asked him where he was going and he got a puzzled look on his face. I told him that as long as I was standing it wasn't over and he should never turn his back on me...would he do that in the street? I think that is what sparring is (or should be) all about...
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Bill Glasheen
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Well stated.
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Bill Glasheen
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Mary
I think I need to clarify something here. I'm not a lawyer, and I don't play one on TV. But we deal with them plenty in medicine.
There is truth, and then there is the law. There is innocent vs. guilty, and then there is O.J. In the U.S., we have the written law, precedent, legal activity behind the scenes, and jury trials. And we have many, many hungry lawyers who get paid to litigate and almost never have to worry about the consequences of filing a frivilous suit (other than wasting their own precious time). And then we have sports activities of various kinds where there is always some probability of injury. So even if a "new" way of doing something is safer, any injury that results from it becomes an "unacceptable event" (like an airline crash).
Even though the manufacturer of a kitchen knife may never be sued if the user cuts him/herself, a manufacturer of cardboard package that comes with Peekachoo may be sued if a paper cut severs a nerve in the hand of little Johnny.
Experience and precedent are always on the side of the defendent. When you try something new, you put yourself at great risk in this country.
- Bill
I think I need to clarify something here. I'm not a lawyer, and I don't play one on TV. But we deal with them plenty in medicine.
There is truth, and then there is the law. There is innocent vs. guilty, and then there is O.J. In the U.S., we have the written law, precedent, legal activity behind the scenes, and jury trials. And we have many, many hungry lawyers who get paid to litigate and almost never have to worry about the consequences of filing a frivilous suit (other than wasting their own precious time). And then we have sports activities of various kinds where there is always some probability of injury. So even if a "new" way of doing something is safer, any injury that results from it becomes an "unacceptable event" (like an airline crash).
Even though the manufacturer of a kitchen knife may never be sued if the user cuts him/herself, a manufacturer of cardboard package that comes with Peekachoo may be sued if a paper cut severs a nerve in the hand of little Johnny.
Experience and precedent are always on the side of the defendent. When you try something new, you put yourself at great risk in this country.
- Bill
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gmattson
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Bill is quite correct in all that he said. We were the first. . . in many areas. We could have worked together and formed the rules by which others followed. We didn't and the Koreans did! Hence, when it comes time to defend ourselves in court, the lawyers won't be calling us as 'expert' witnesses, they will be calling the TKD people, who will be shocked to hear how barbaric our sparring is and how neglegent our teachers are to permit such violence.
Although the WKF rules are not perfect, they require more solid techniques than the other 'accepted' rules out there. I don't see much chance of getting any support from most Uechi dojo, so envision expanding our annual Uechi event to include other WKF styles.
Face it: Most Uechi related teachers are too busy trying to destroy one another to join forces for any good cause. Those of us who keep trying, must work with other like-minded individuals, regardless of their style or dojo affiliation.
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GEM
Although the WKF rules are not perfect, they require more solid techniques than the other 'accepted' rules out there. I don't see much chance of getting any support from most Uechi dojo, so envision expanding our annual Uechi event to include other WKF styles.
Face it: Most Uechi related teachers are too busy trying to destroy one another to join forces for any good cause. Those of us who keep trying, must work with other like-minded individuals, regardless of their style or dojo affiliation.
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GEM
Point Sparring
Sparring can be as tough and real as you want to make it, short of debilitating and killing your partner. As Bill pointed out, there is a need for rules so people who don't know each other can come on with hopefully a common understanding what the playing field is. It is a "sporting" event and can be a "training" event as well. The New England Uechi Championships started out in a "continuous" format but not many wanted to play. Last year's WKA style point event attracted more players. The players who like and train to spar in a "continous" format in their dojos showed up for the point event. After the event, I am sure they went back to continue training as they "normally" do in their respective dojos.
As for the bouncing, bouncing, bouncing... Yes. Too much (relative judgement) can be useless if not detrimental, allowing the opponent to possibly catch one's timing. (With the latter, one can use a broken cadence but that's another story.) If it helps one to be more mobile, it is not a bad thing although I don't think bouncing is necessary for mobility. Mobility is definitely not a bad thing when one is facing a bigger, stronger opponent. Mobility is definitely not a bad thing when one is facing an attacker with a knife! (You just have take my word, or play with fast knife attacks to figure it out for yourself.) I think what would concern me more is to see whether the person grounds him/herself in the process of finishing his/her attacks. If not, the person is a dancer or a "butterfly" without the bee's sting (to use Ali's words).
david
As for the bouncing, bouncing, bouncing... Yes. Too much (relative judgement) can be useless if not detrimental, allowing the opponent to possibly catch one's timing. (With the latter, one can use a broken cadence but that's another story.) If it helps one to be more mobile, it is not a bad thing although I don't think bouncing is necessary for mobility. Mobility is definitely not a bad thing when one is facing a bigger, stronger opponent. Mobility is definitely not a bad thing when one is facing an attacker with a knife! (You just have take my word, or play with fast knife attacks to figure it out for yourself.) I think what would concern me more is to see whether the person grounds him/herself in the process of finishing his/her attacks. If not, the person is a dancer or a "butterfly" without the bee's sting (to use Ali's words).
david
Point Sparring
Paul-C just a quicky...I don't want to be a hog but felt I must give $0.02 on continuous v. point. I believe in continuous sparring the emphasis should be on "control". I know at tournaments I have participated in (continuous) referees have stressed they are looking for good "sanchin" sparring (use of Uechi techniques)...to me that means clean controlled technique, strong and varied techinque, follow-up technique, a good grounding in sanchin (i.e. don't just stand there and flail), counter-technique, no blind techinque (i.e. spinning back fist? no thank you), avoid getting hit by technique (no, not running) and the biggy - compassion (i.e. I weigh 300 pounds more than you and could squash you like a bug but what's the point to that?)
The flying back fist of doom technique doesn't do much for me either.
I guess my point in all of this was that the tippy tap crap seems to be winnng over the good technique.
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The flying back fist of doom technique doesn't do much for me either.
I guess my point in all of this was that the tippy tap crap seems to be winnng over the good technique.
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J. Bellone
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This is an interesting thread. Mary S, keep on asking those questions!
I remember as a kid going to a Uechi tournament in Framingham. This was a long time ago. NAUKA was still around. The original 5 were still together. George, Walter, Charlie, Frank and John Conroy.
The sparring was great. It was brutal, hard hitting and open hand grabbing of the gi to add that sense of realism. It was a great experience. It seperated us from the "other" karate folks.
I remember talking to people from other styles, that would say, "Oh, Uechi guys are tough." That made some of the bruises that I got in John Zachistal's dojo worthwhile. Almost like a badge of courage.
You don't hear other martial art stylists say that phrase anymore. It's too bad.
Now, everyone teaching has to worry about lawsuits, being regulated by the insurance companies (Tracy Rose is absolutely correct!) and potentially losing students if a workout is too tough. Talking trash has become "the way." So to keep students, play ball with the insurance companies (let's put on so much foam that we can't move around, then we can play tag!), we adhere to a very much watered down version of sparring that looks like what the others were already doing.
It's too bad.
I remember as a kid going to a Uechi tournament in Framingham. This was a long time ago. NAUKA was still around. The original 5 were still together. George, Walter, Charlie, Frank and John Conroy.
The sparring was great. It was brutal, hard hitting and open hand grabbing of the gi to add that sense of realism. It was a great experience. It seperated us from the "other" karate folks.
I remember talking to people from other styles, that would say, "Oh, Uechi guys are tough." That made some of the bruises that I got in John Zachistal's dojo worthwhile. Almost like a badge of courage.
You don't hear other martial art stylists say that phrase anymore. It's too bad.
Now, everyone teaching has to worry about lawsuits, being regulated by the insurance companies (Tracy Rose is absolutely correct!) and potentially losing students if a workout is too tough. Talking trash has become "the way." So to keep students, play ball with the insurance companies (let's put on so much foam that we can't move around, then we can play tag!), we adhere to a very much watered down version of sparring that looks like what the others were already doing.
It's too bad.
Point Sparring
Joe,
In the era you were referring to, sparring was TOUGHER in general. Uechi folks held their own and the good ones even better. But, there were some tough schools out there. In New England, George Pesare's (kenpo) was among those as was Jeff Goldberg's (TKD). The tourney's were bare knuckled affairs, sometimes degenerating into bloodbaths.
Yes. Lawsuits and the fear of did away with that type of tourney and much of the hard sparring in dojos. The other reason is the broadening appeal of MA practice for a variety of reasons. How do we remedy that? The only way I can think of is to cultivate a cadre of upper level students who are interested in harder training and can be trusted to not slap a lawsuit as soon as s/he gets a busted nose. On the top of this, there should be an attempt within the style to perhaps have these select students meet, train and spar occaisonally. This should be absolutely limited to students who are willing and can be trusted by their respective instructors. If this smacks of elitism, so be it. I think there is a need to bring the level up rather than to accept what is.
david
[This message has been edited by david (edited 12-01-99).]
In the era you were referring to, sparring was TOUGHER in general. Uechi folks held their own and the good ones even better. But, there were some tough schools out there. In New England, George Pesare's (kenpo) was among those as was Jeff Goldberg's (TKD). The tourney's were bare knuckled affairs, sometimes degenerating into bloodbaths.
Yes. Lawsuits and the fear of did away with that type of tourney and much of the hard sparring in dojos. The other reason is the broadening appeal of MA practice for a variety of reasons. How do we remedy that? The only way I can think of is to cultivate a cadre of upper level students who are interested in harder training and can be trusted to not slap a lawsuit as soon as s/he gets a busted nose. On the top of this, there should be an attempt within the style to perhaps have these select students meet, train and spar occaisonally. This should be absolutely limited to students who are willing and can be trusted by their respective instructors. If this smacks of elitism, so be it. I think there is a need to bring the level up rather than to accept what is.
david
[This message has been edited by david (edited 12-01-99).]
Point Sparring
David..."the era" may be passed that J-san is referring because we have learned a few things about what the body can take and what it can't. I've been involved in Uechi for just over 4 years (I know, not very long...), but every tourney I have ever competed in has been continuous sparring. While we do use protective gear these days, the sparring is heavy and hard and I would say pretty darn tough...there have been broken bones, blood and the like (yes, even ripped gi tops). I just hate to see the skills get swallowed up but something that can be so unrealistic at times.
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Bill Glasheen
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David
Actually...you may be onto something here. This reminds me of an idea I had about how tournaments should be run. And it is a little like some requirements I have had in my dojo.
One way to pull off what you are describing is to demand a certain amount and specific type of training required first. Then have people sign "informed consent" release forms. This wouldn't sign your rights away, nor would it be a license to hurt someone. It would just slow down the frivilous lawsuits. And the process should select for good people.
As an example, one could require the following:
Successful testing from established dojo for material that included the following:
* At least two kata
* At least one bunkai and/or prearranged sparring activity.
* Ukemi (VERY important!!!)
* Kotekitae and ashikitae
You might even demand yearly recertification. Then once you have received your yearly pass, you may work out with this group. And style shouldn't matter, as long as it is an established style (that may take some time to define...).
I'd much rather work out (spar) with a bunch of toughs that do what they mean and mean what they do than work out with poorly-trained or inadequately trained folks that are unpredictable and as much a danger to themselves as they are to me.
- Bill
Actually...you may be onto something here. This reminds me of an idea I had about how tournaments should be run. And it is a little like some requirements I have had in my dojo.
One way to pull off what you are describing is to demand a certain amount and specific type of training required first. Then have people sign "informed consent" release forms. This wouldn't sign your rights away, nor would it be a license to hurt someone. It would just slow down the frivilous lawsuits. And the process should select for good people.
As an example, one could require the following:
Successful testing from established dojo for material that included the following:
* At least two kata
* At least one bunkai and/or prearranged sparring activity.
* Ukemi (VERY important!!!)
* Kotekitae and ashikitae
You might even demand yearly recertification. Then once you have received your yearly pass, you may work out with this group. And style shouldn't matter, as long as it is an established style (that may take some time to define...).
I'd much rather work out (spar) with a bunch of toughs that do what they mean and mean what they do than work out with poorly-trained or inadequately trained folks that are unpredictable and as much a danger to themselves as they are to me.
- Bill
