I needed to end the last thread due to length. I'm going to start the continuation of it with a post from Shelly.
The moderator
*************************************
Van Sensei
I'm surprised reading down through the posts and not seeing any comments from you. You are something of our standard in realism in training. Would you be kind enough to share your thoughts and opinions on this topic, particularly on the integration of bouncing into point sparring?
------------------
Shelly
Point Sparring, Part II
Moderator: Available
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Point Sparring, Part II
I still question the superiority of Continuous Sparring (CS) over Point Sparring (PS). Shelly you said you don't understand why people PS rather then CS, since CS is more realistic and better prepares you for a confrontation on the street. So answer me this, do you or any in your dojo hit as hard as you can when you CS? Do you try to knock your opponent out? If the answer is no, which I'm assuming it is then how does that, prepare your synoptic response to completely explode on an opponent in the real world? Now don't get me wrong I'm not saying PS prepares those responses any better, hell your not trying to kill your dojo mate. Plus I'm not talking about the PS people see in these so-called tournaments. I'm talking about hard contact but break when a clean point is called. This kind of fighting does have its advantages. For example your sparring matches are what 2 to 3 minutes long? And your making moderate to hard contact to the legs, body and face? This will help your endurance, but not the explosion needed to win a fight. Lets' take the fact that most fights statistically are decided within the first 10 to 15 seconds, (I think, I'm sure some one has the actual numbers). How does dancing around for three minutes giving each other a couple of bruises help you with that? PS may not be a realistic fight but at least it teaches you to explode on your opponent and make the technique count when the opportunity arises.
By the way I don't like the bouncing either I think it can be timed to easily. Plus why practice a sanchin stance if your not going to use it?
By the way I don't like the bouncing either I think it can be timed to easily. Plus why practice a sanchin stance if your not going to use it?
-
Shelly King
Point Sparring, Part II
Paul
I don't have a huge problem with GOOD point sparring but I think we need to do more GOOD continuous sparring. No we don't hit each other as hard as we should...and I do question if pulling punches during sparring is building bad habits so to speak. But you should be able to hit as hard during CS sparring as you would during PS. We do however, work on exploding at the opponent during CS. So you can explode off the line in PS but a bad guy isn't going to stop after you hit him the first time and let you reset so you can explode again...You have to be able to explode and keep exploding without stopping.
Please keep in mind that I'm not the expert on "exploding", I'm something more like a spark.
------------------
Shelly
I don't have a huge problem with GOOD point sparring but I think we need to do more GOOD continuous sparring. No we don't hit each other as hard as we should...and I do question if pulling punches during sparring is building bad habits so to speak. But you should be able to hit as hard during CS sparring as you would during PS. We do however, work on exploding at the opponent during CS. So you can explode off the line in PS but a bad guy isn't going to stop after you hit him the first time and let you reset so you can explode again...You have to be able to explode and keep exploding without stopping.
Please keep in mind that I'm not the expert on "exploding", I'm something more like a spark.
------------------
Shelly
Point Sparring, Part II
Paul-C interesting points. I was out with the karate gang one night down town and came upon a confrontation involving one of the guys from my dojo and some guys in the street ... my friend was sucker punched in the face. The guy who punched him had the upper hand for all of about 2 seconds...say, long enough to win the fight...it was an explosive punch that split my friend's lip.
However, my friend (now a Nidan) recovered in seconds, grabbed the guy's jacket, pulled it over his head and drove home a couple of knee strikes to end the situation (all perfectly legal in continuous sparring)...and I guess that is what CS is all about in my book anyway. Yes, the other guy got in the first punch but he certainly didn't win the fight...on the street that's what it is all about.
I have had other friends at my dojo who have been attacked...I think because they practice continuous sparring they were able to recover from the first blow and defend themselves... and defend themselves very well.
No, continuous sparring doesn't mean you kill the other person ... obviously there must be control but I do think it enables a person to realize that it may take more than one strike and that those strikes can be just as explosive as in point sparring.
------------------
However, my friend (now a Nidan) recovered in seconds, grabbed the guy's jacket, pulled it over his head and drove home a couple of knee strikes to end the situation (all perfectly legal in continuous sparring)...and I guess that is what CS is all about in my book anyway. Yes, the other guy got in the first punch but he certainly didn't win the fight...on the street that's what it is all about.
I have had other friends at my dojo who have been attacked...I think because they practice continuous sparring they were able to recover from the first blow and defend themselves... and defend themselves very well.
No, continuous sparring doesn't mean you kill the other person ... obviously there must be control but I do think it enables a person to realize that it may take more than one strike and that those strikes can be just as explosive as in point sparring.
------------------
Point Sparring, Part II
Duplicate removed.
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 12-02-99).]
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 12-02-99).]
Point Sparring, Part II
Triplicate removed.
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 12-02-99).]
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 12-02-99).]
Point Sparring, Part II
ohhh...I hate my computer...sorry for the 3 posts...
------------------
------------------
Point Sparring, Part II
Paul,
I think Shelly and Mary answered your question very well. The explosiveness you talked about in point sparring can be had in continuous sparring. But adjusting to the ebb and flow, even in a 15 second confrontation, can't be experienced as well if the sparring is stopped because a "point" was scored. In 15 seconds, one can get 20, 30 or more punches in (provided good wind and fast hands). The same of the opponent. That leaves room for ebbs and flows no matter how minute. Continuous sparring allows you to feel/see these better and to take advantage of them.
david
I think Shelly and Mary answered your question very well. The explosiveness you talked about in point sparring can be had in continuous sparring. But adjusting to the ebb and flow, even in a 15 second confrontation, can't be experienced as well if the sparring is stopped because a "point" was scored. In 15 seconds, one can get 20, 30 or more punches in (provided good wind and fast hands). The same of the opponent. That leaves room for ebbs and flows no matter how minute. Continuous sparring allows you to feel/see these better and to take advantage of them.
david
Point Sparring, Part II
Shelly, what was your original point? I can't get the closed thread to pull up. Were you questioning the whole concept of point sparring? Tournament point sparring? This topic was brought up and thumped about before on G. Khoury's sensei's forum some time back.
Perhaps it is possible to CS inhouse in routine dojo kumite, but also PS interspersed throughout to add the tournament flavor. There are some great posts in that old thread that would greatly add to the dialogue here.
JohnC
Perhaps it is possible to CS inhouse in routine dojo kumite, but also PS interspersed throughout to add the tournament flavor. There are some great posts in that old thread that would greatly add to the dialogue here.
JohnC
-
Jackie Olsen
- Posts: 619
- Joined: Fri Sep 18, 1998 6:01 am
- Contact:
Point Sparring, Part II
Shelly,
You said: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
The punch wasn't pulled quick enough.
Jackie
You said: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Punches have to be pulled ... training enables us to build a lot of speed and power over the years. If the punches aren't checked, serious damage occurs. During my training, I have been knocked out twice ... had my back teeth cracked. (I don't spar as much any more ...) We just had a brown belt who was sparring with a black belt (who should have known better and had more control) who just had 4 ribs cracked.... and I do question if pulling punches during sparring is building bad habits so to speak.
The punch wasn't pulled quick enough.
Jackie
-
Shelly King
Point Sparring, Part II
John
The orignal topic was from Mary-san. She was posing the question of why we don't use CS more in our tournaments. That if kumite is suppose to help teach fighting, isn't it better to use CS instead of PS.
Jackie
Yes control is important and we don't want to hurt each other but I do wonder if pulling punches engraines itself into our fighting method. And the real question is if it does, how do you compensate your training to offset it?
------------------
Shelly
The orignal topic was from Mary-san. She was posing the question of why we don't use CS more in our tournaments. That if kumite is suppose to help teach fighting, isn't it better to use CS instead of PS.
Jackie
Yes control is important and we don't want to hurt each other but I do wonder if pulling punches engraines itself into our fighting method. And the real question is if it does, how do you compensate your training to offset it?
------------------
Shelly
-
Jake Steinmann
- Posts: 1184
- Joined: Fri Apr 30, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Newton, MA
- Contact:
Point Sparring, Part II
Shelly asks a good question: "I do wonder if pulling punches engraines itself into our fighting method. And the real question is if it does, how do you compensate your training to offset it?"
1) Yes, pulling your punches WILL ingrain itself into your fighting method. Remember...you fight as you train. If you practice pulling your punches, when the s**t hits the fan, you'll probably still pull your punches (unless you're so panicked that your technique falls apart, but that's another thread/forum--Van's, actually)
2) How do you compensate? Hit stuff..hard. Heavy bags and punch mitts are good. If you want to hit a live person...get some gear. I know a number of martial artists who eschew the use of gloves and headgear because it's "restrictive" or "unrealistic"...and it is. But, as Tony Blauer says "Everything we do is fake...some of it's just less fake than others". If you want to be able to safely wail on each other, wear protection. Either that, or get a really good medical plan.
More Chi! Train Harder!
Jake
1) Yes, pulling your punches WILL ingrain itself into your fighting method. Remember...you fight as you train. If you practice pulling your punches, when the s**t hits the fan, you'll probably still pull your punches (unless you're so panicked that your technique falls apart, but that's another thread/forum--Van's, actually)
2) How do you compensate? Hit stuff..hard. Heavy bags and punch mitts are good. If you want to hit a live person...get some gear. I know a number of martial artists who eschew the use of gloves and headgear because it's "restrictive" or "unrealistic"...and it is. But, as Tony Blauer says "Everything we do is fake...some of it's just less fake than others". If you want to be able to safely wail on each other, wear protection. Either that, or get a really good medical plan.
More Chi! Train Harder!
Jake
-
Shelly King
Point Sparring, Part II
Hi Bill-san
Acutally, a heavy bag is what I asked Santa to bring me for Christmas.
------------------
Shelly
Acutally, a heavy bag is what I asked Santa to bring me for Christmas.
------------------
Shelly
Point Sparring, Part II
Of course, you all expected me to chime in on this thread eventually, and here I am.
I, like others, don't know where this thread started or where it's going to end.
This I do know: we don't do more continuous fighting in Uechi tournaments because it hurts and too few among us are willing to put it on the line for a $14 trophy once a year.
But I agree with Paul. There is no "good" or "better". As Jake and Bill-sensei have said: It's all fake. Some is just less fake than other(s).
That said, with this I TOTALLY disgree: You cannot learn to fight or defend yourself by sparring. On the contrary! In the martial arts, there IS simply NO OTHER WAY to learn to fight than to spar!
Ask "Brat" who has visited these Forums if boxers cannot fight for "real" because their love is a "sport". Talk to a few Thai fighters about their ability to stop the average idiot on the street. They will giggle at you. Mention scraps to our Kyokushinkai brethren and they will ruefully crack, "BRING IT ON!!"
How many of you share that kind of confidence in your skills, abilities or training??!!
You want to learn to fight? FIGHT! You want to learn to shoot a gun? Buy a pistol. But, you won't develop much proficiency in either talking, chatting, writing and/or reading, that's for damn sure!
What sparring will not and cannot develop is your ability to go (what I call) zero to one hundred. See, it's not the rules that make tournys and sparring fake, it's the fact that the 2 combatants are there to fight, and both know it!
In a real (tm) self-defense situation, you won't know you're there to fight until you're already fighting! And at that point, something other than your 2 minute rounds or your ippon kumite will be at work.
Call it the will to win, the killer instinct, or whatever, but you better have it or ELSE! Can sparring help develop it within you? YES! But nothing besides your own desire to prevail will be able to drag it out of you when your girlfriend's watching, there's 3 of them and you realize that your right hand just broke on that a**hole's forehead!
Train to fight, fight to win. The question is not "does sparring work?" but "will you have the b*lls to make your sparring work when you need to?" i.e. "Can I go zero to one hundred any time all the time, when it is time?"
That's a question too few of us ask and even fewer ever want to answer.
Stop beating up sparring and go back to beating up yourself. Psychologically and physically, it will get you a hell of a lot more prepared for "That Day" than pontificating over what's the "right" technique.
Respectfully,
Gary
I, like others, don't know where this thread started or where it's going to end.
This I do know: we don't do more continuous fighting in Uechi tournaments because it hurts and too few among us are willing to put it on the line for a $14 trophy once a year.
But I agree with Paul. There is no "good" or "better". As Jake and Bill-sensei have said: It's all fake. Some is just less fake than other(s).
That said, with this I TOTALLY disgree: You cannot learn to fight or defend yourself by sparring. On the contrary! In the martial arts, there IS simply NO OTHER WAY to learn to fight than to spar!
Ask "Brat" who has visited these Forums if boxers cannot fight for "real" because their love is a "sport". Talk to a few Thai fighters about their ability to stop the average idiot on the street. They will giggle at you. Mention scraps to our Kyokushinkai brethren and they will ruefully crack, "BRING IT ON!!"
How many of you share that kind of confidence in your skills, abilities or training??!!
You want to learn to fight? FIGHT! You want to learn to shoot a gun? Buy a pistol. But, you won't develop much proficiency in either talking, chatting, writing and/or reading, that's for damn sure!
What sparring will not and cannot develop is your ability to go (what I call) zero to one hundred. See, it's not the rules that make tournys and sparring fake, it's the fact that the 2 combatants are there to fight, and both know it!
In a real (tm) self-defense situation, you won't know you're there to fight until you're already fighting! And at that point, something other than your 2 minute rounds or your ippon kumite will be at work.
Call it the will to win, the killer instinct, or whatever, but you better have it or ELSE! Can sparring help develop it within you? YES! But nothing besides your own desire to prevail will be able to drag it out of you when your girlfriend's watching, there's 3 of them and you realize that your right hand just broke on that a**hole's forehead!
Train to fight, fight to win. The question is not "does sparring work?" but "will you have the b*lls to make your sparring work when you need to?" i.e. "Can I go zero to one hundred any time all the time, when it is time?"
That's a question too few of us ask and even fewer ever want to answer.
Stop beating up sparring and go back to beating up yourself. Psychologically and physically, it will get you a hell of a lot more prepared for "That Day" than pontificating over what's the "right" technique.
Respectfully,
Gary
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Point Sparring, Part II
I agree with Jake.
I have said this before and I'll say it again. Sparring is not the endpoint of your karate training - period. Do not listen to folks who tell you that this is what "it" is all about. Bull****! Sparring is a sophisticated game of tag, and nothing more. It teaches you how to spontaneously put sequences together, and how to execute an agenda against a partner that has his/her own agenda. Because it has rules, it is NOT fighting. It will not - in and of itself - teach you how to defend yourself.
The whole package, so to write, is put together when you can integrate the gains achieved by doing kata training, body conditioning, weight or other training, technique exercises, bag or makiwara work, prearranged partner exercises, ukemi, and sparring.
The only "sure" way to learn to defend yourself is to....spend time defending yourself. The only people who have TRUE experience at this are law enforcement officers, experienced soldiers, bouncers, and folks who make it a habit of insulting people. The only problem with that is a few minor potential details like death (maybe your own), lawsuits, permanent injury, psychological scarring, and other minor inconveniences.
I'm happy with what I have to work with.
Find a good heavy bag and smack the *&$% out of it, Shelly! If for no other reason, it's great fun :-) And stop worrying about "one day". Life is too short.
- Bill
I have said this before and I'll say it again. Sparring is not the endpoint of your karate training - period. Do not listen to folks who tell you that this is what "it" is all about. Bull****! Sparring is a sophisticated game of tag, and nothing more. It teaches you how to spontaneously put sequences together, and how to execute an agenda against a partner that has his/her own agenda. Because it has rules, it is NOT fighting. It will not - in and of itself - teach you how to defend yourself.
The whole package, so to write, is put together when you can integrate the gains achieved by doing kata training, body conditioning, weight or other training, technique exercises, bag or makiwara work, prearranged partner exercises, ukemi, and sparring.
The only "sure" way to learn to defend yourself is to....spend time defending yourself. The only people who have TRUE experience at this are law enforcement officers, experienced soldiers, bouncers, and folks who make it a habit of insulting people. The only problem with that is a few minor potential details like death (maybe your own), lawsuits, permanent injury, psychological scarring, and other minor inconveniences.
I'm happy with what I have to work with.
Find a good heavy bag and smack the *&$% out of it, Shelly! If for no other reason, it's great fun :-) And stop worrying about "one day". Life is too short.
- Bill
