Gary
As always, good to hear from you. Someone sent me a private e-mail and asked me if you were having a bad hair day or something. "No", I said, "that's vintage Gary." I would expect nothing less than your honest convictions. I would expect nothing less than the passion I respect so much in you.
First of all, nobody expected you to chime in. We like it when you do, and welcome your input as you have as much or more sparring experience as anyone who would post here. But nobody was laying the ground for your participation, baiting you, or otherwise putting expectations on you. This is an open forum where I encourage everyone - including the beginner - to put forth his/her input. That's the concept of the roundtable. The reader then can judge for him/herself what is useful based on the result of the dialogue. And as you stated, the real world is the place to make it all work.
Second, there was a very sincere and pointed line of questions that started these threads. It started with a shodan's view of a film of a noted U.S. Uechi tournament, where the participants were bouncing incessantly. She wanted to know what that was all about. Then she and others were interested in why we did point as opposed to continuous motion sparring. Obviously the original line of questions have resonated among many as this has continued on to a second thread. And pardon me for saying this, but I think you may have slighted some very accomplished "fighters" in questioning the virtue of these threades. Take another look.
I even had a kyu rank chide me for seemingly getting off topic. So if a line of reason was obvious to a kyu rank, then I believe your expressed frustration at no beginning or end to the topic is harsh, if not unfounded. Perhaps what you really meant to say is that you disagree with some of what has been posted. Or maybe you represent the "status quo" that a relative beginner dared to question. Fair enough. Address what you disagree with and enlighten us with your point of view. We ARE interested....in facts and opinions that respond to the questions and issues.
Third, I was one who started my karate trainining doing nothing but sparring, sparring, sparring. I believed it was what karate was all about. Now I still love sparring, but I have more appreciation for other aspects of my training. What changed MY mind? A gentleman who taught me for several years who killed people for a living (a green beret). In his training of myself and other black belts from a variety of styles, we worked with techniques and methods that you could never learn in a sparring ring. And what was this gentleman's favorite approach to learning how to fight (not spar, fight)? Traditional methods (from judo, Goju, and aikido). Only he could give you reasons why those methods brought you to a desired end.
To be fair, there are folks like you, Gary, (and others like Bobby Campbell) who are probably both good sparrers and good fighters. Maybe you don't get it because it's all so obvious to you. Maybe you are already "there", and the WKF format you love and promote is a good reflection of that broader ability. Maybe..... For the rest of humanity, perhaps you should reflect on what else is out there to get those people to that place on the top of the mountain.
Additionally, nobody here (I believe) is "dissing" what you love so much. I can't speak for others, but I will say that the type of sparring you love and promote is important, but it has its place among a collection of things that make us good fighters. There are other venues of fighting like continuous motion sparring or grappling (ever heard of Royce Gracie??) or weapons training that can also shed light on the subject.
And what exactly does bring that tiger out "when it is time", Gary? Perhaps it's different things for different people. Some time back I went through a bit of a catharsis over a disagreement in a gym. Part of MY angst was that I wasn't really all that hell bent on fighting to protect my ego. It's not that important. And yet there was something else inside me that wondered whether I would or I wouldn't, whether I was up to it or not. But do you want to know how to bring the tiger out of me? Just let anyone touch either one of my kids. Each of us has that line, beyond which the monster comes out and only a fool would want to face. After my first born came into this earth, I understood the concept of being willing to die for something. You cannot learn that in the sparring ring.
In the mean time, we ARE working on getting you down here this spring so we can pick your brain and all learn to be better fighters....one training exercise at a time.
Respectfully,
Bill
Point Sparring, Part II
Moderator: Available
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Point Sparring, Part II
Gary-san. I started this thread. I started it after looking at a tournament tape in which there was sparring competition. I wanted input from people as to why we point spar rather than continuous spar. I didn't mean it to be a case of "right" technique versus "wrong" technique. I was "not beating up sparring".
I wanted to know why we have changed our sparring techniques over the years and how it came so diluted after viewing this tape. To me, you develop fighting skills by sparring. You develop and maintain your sparring skills by being well-grounded in the fundamentals of your style - in my case, Uechi . I respectfully believe bouncing is not Uechi sparring and I saw an awful lot of that going on when I watched the tape. It led me to question if we have "sold our souls" more or less.
There are many people who never participate in tournaments - I do. I do continuous sparring. Why? Well, not for some $14 trophy. I do it to stay sharp. I do it to prove that the things I have learned in the dojo work and that I can rely on them when I need them. I want to prove to myself that I am conditioned enough I can take a hit or a kick and keep on going. I want to know that I can rely upon the fundamentals I have been taught in Uechi-ryu. And yes, I love to spar. That $14 trophy is the last thing on my mind when I am sparring.
Respectfully, Mary
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I wanted to know why we have changed our sparring techniques over the years and how it came so diluted after viewing this tape. To me, you develop fighting skills by sparring. You develop and maintain your sparring skills by being well-grounded in the fundamentals of your style - in my case, Uechi . I respectfully believe bouncing is not Uechi sparring and I saw an awful lot of that going on when I watched the tape. It led me to question if we have "sold our souls" more or less.
There are many people who never participate in tournaments - I do. I do continuous sparring. Why? Well, not for some $14 trophy. I do it to stay sharp. I do it to prove that the things I have learned in the dojo work and that I can rely on them when I need them. I want to prove to myself that I am conditioned enough I can take a hit or a kick and keep on going. I want to know that I can rely upon the fundamentals I have been taught in Uechi-ryu. And yes, I love to spar. That $14 trophy is the last thing on my mind when I am sparring.
Respectfully, Mary
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Point Sparring, Part II
AH! Bill-sensei! You know me too well!
In terms of "expecting" to be heard from, I simply meant that as the "sparring guy", many probably wondered when I would be adding my 2 cents to the conversation. No "baiting" perceived or expected on your always-excellent Forum.
Then, you wrote: "...there was a very sincere and pointed line of questions that started these threads. It started with a shodan's view of a film of a noted U.S. Uechi tournament, where the participants were bouncing incessantly. She wanted to know what that was all about. Then she and others were interested in why we did point as opposed to continuous motion sparring. Obviously the original line of questions have resonated among many as this has continued on to a second thread. And pardon me for saying this, but I think you may have slighted some very
accomplished "fighters" in questioning the virtue of these threads. Take another look."
Guilty again. Although I certainly never meant to question the "virtue of these threads" as you put it. Like many of you, too many Forums, too little time. I peruse, glimpse and react. In retrospect, a disservice to my fellow fighters and "posters".
I refrain from launching into a longwinded historical, organizational, psycho- and physiological dissertation of the reasons I believe have shaped tournament strategy and technique over the last decade or more. And this, still, would not begin address the "bouncing".
Simply, I would say to Mary: Do not get caught up in misconceptions and what I call "non-traditions". One of the "funniest" questions I have ever been asked at one of my seminars is "How do I learn to fight out of Sanchin?" To which I laughed, "YOU DON'T!!"
I bounce when I fight, Mary. That's point, continuous and full contact. It works for me. And just because you don't see it in Sanchin does not mean it is not Uechi (Indeed, you will not find many who train with me or see me fight question my ability to apply Uechi training in competition--bouncing or not!).
This is not a condemnation of your sincere questioning nor an attack of any individual's beliefs, substantiated or not.
Instead, it is meant to provide a single person's experienced perspective of fighting, good, bad, or ugly!
Too, understand that like many threads, not all comments/responses are directed to the orignal author (although often that is the first and only person who will respond to posts on thread II, III and beyond).
Take all informations on these Forums (and all other sources) for what it is worth understanding all the while that the secret is in the doing, always.
Respectfully,
Gary
In terms of "expecting" to be heard from, I simply meant that as the "sparring guy", many probably wondered when I would be adding my 2 cents to the conversation. No "baiting" perceived or expected on your always-excellent Forum.
Then, you wrote: "...there was a very sincere and pointed line of questions that started these threads. It started with a shodan's view of a film of a noted U.S. Uechi tournament, where the participants were bouncing incessantly. She wanted to know what that was all about. Then she and others were interested in why we did point as opposed to continuous motion sparring. Obviously the original line of questions have resonated among many as this has continued on to a second thread. And pardon me for saying this, but I think you may have slighted some very
accomplished "fighters" in questioning the virtue of these threads. Take another look."
Guilty again. Although I certainly never meant to question the "virtue of these threads" as you put it. Like many of you, too many Forums, too little time. I peruse, glimpse and react. In retrospect, a disservice to my fellow fighters and "posters".
I refrain from launching into a longwinded historical, organizational, psycho- and physiological dissertation of the reasons I believe have shaped tournament strategy and technique over the last decade or more. And this, still, would not begin address the "bouncing".
Simply, I would say to Mary: Do not get caught up in misconceptions and what I call "non-traditions". One of the "funniest" questions I have ever been asked at one of my seminars is "How do I learn to fight out of Sanchin?" To which I laughed, "YOU DON'T!!"
I bounce when I fight, Mary. That's point, continuous and full contact. It works for me. And just because you don't see it in Sanchin does not mean it is not Uechi (Indeed, you will not find many who train with me or see me fight question my ability to apply Uechi training in competition--bouncing or not!).
This is not a condemnation of your sincere questioning nor an attack of any individual's beliefs, substantiated or not.
Instead, it is meant to provide a single person's experienced perspective of fighting, good, bad, or ugly!
Too, understand that like many threads, not all comments/responses are directed to the orignal author (although often that is the first and only person who will respond to posts on thread II, III and beyond).
Take all informations on these Forums (and all other sources) for what it is worth understanding all the while that the secret is in the doing, always.
Respectfully,
Gary
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Jake Steinmann
- Posts: 1184
- Joined: Fri Apr 30, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Newton, MA
- Contact:
Point Sparring, Part II
Because I feel as though I should say something...
I have never condemned sparring. My biggest criticism of many of the people I train with is that they spar insufficently.
That said, sparring is only useful if you acknowledge it's limitations...as you must with any other kind of training. When I said it's all fake, I meant it! No one part of training is enough...do everything, and do it often.
More later...must return to work now.
Train Harder! More Chi!
Jake Steinmann
I have never condemned sparring. My biggest criticism of many of the people I train with is that they spar insufficently.
That said, sparring is only useful if you acknowledge it's limitations...as you must with any other kind of training. When I said it's all fake, I meant it! No one part of training is enough...do everything, and do it often.
More later...must return to work now.
Train Harder! More Chi!
Jake Steinmann
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Shelly King
Point Sparring, Part II
Hi Gary-san
Please understand, speaking for myself...I love sparring...can't get enough of it, wish we did it more often in class. My personal opinion, anything that stops a match is a pain...I'd rather just keep fighting till I fall over from exhaustion. And I'll spar against anyone just to spend time in the ring...there are some I'll keep my distance from, but I'll still give it a try. To be honest...I'm not going to encounter a bad guy who has similar fighting skill to me...he'll be faster, stronger, and better...I had better get use to it now.
And please trust, we would never deliberatly try to exact a response from you...we save that effort for our beloved Dr. X
.
But for a style that basis itself in being rooted and conserving movement...isn't bouncing alot of wasted energy? I don't classify myself as a bouncer, though I haven't seen myself fight...my husband is a bouncer, though, and it seems to take its tole on him during a match and it looks like it's easier for his opponent to upset his balance and body position. Thoughts?
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Shelly
Please understand, speaking for myself...I love sparring...can't get enough of it, wish we did it more often in class. My personal opinion, anything that stops a match is a pain...I'd rather just keep fighting till I fall over from exhaustion. And I'll spar against anyone just to spend time in the ring...there are some I'll keep my distance from, but I'll still give it a try. To be honest...I'm not going to encounter a bad guy who has similar fighting skill to me...he'll be faster, stronger, and better...I had better get use to it now.
And please trust, we would never deliberatly try to exact a response from you...we save that effort for our beloved Dr. X
.But for a style that basis itself in being rooted and conserving movement...isn't bouncing alot of wasted energy? I don't classify myself as a bouncer, though I haven't seen myself fight...my husband is a bouncer, though, and it seems to take its tole on him during a match and it looks like it's easier for his opponent to upset his balance and body position. Thoughts?
------------------
Shelly
Point Sparring, Part II
I think we all agree that sparring, whether it is fake or not, is an important aspect of your overall training.
Three step, continuous, and point sparring should be practiced with equal intensity as the activities have one common denominator: SITUATIONAL DOMINANCE IN CONFRONTATIONAL ENGAGEMENT.
Arguing about the differences in format is pointless, if you will pardon the pun, because all such formats lead to the programming and sharpening of the essentials of physical and mental discipline i.e., fear control, speed power, focus of technique and intent, precision, balance and courage “under fire”!
No it is not real fighting but it is the closest most of us will get to the feeling of it replete with large doses of “adrenaline dump” especially when entering tough tournaments.
And it is not so much the technique that is important but the mechanics of body/mind which allow the successful application of technique, killing or otherwise.
A street fight will present unpredictable unique situations and varied attacks. Your success in defense is predicated upon a belief of control of the situation, with blocking, avoiding, reading openings, and mounting an attack, requiring instantaneous response action or your moves will be useless. To train for the unexpected random “shots” you will find in the street, one of the useful “ activities” in addition to scenario conditioning , will be entering open tournaments with a variety of styles represented.
In addition to speed, you will need “ stopping power”, accuracy of targeting, and extreme physical and mental focus to bring yourself to commit with a strike[s] upon the body of an assailant, as in your mind you will know that if you are not effective in making it impossible for your opponent to attack you again, you will be in deep trouble.
By practicing all three formats of sparring, you will learn how your body really moves in the free space of confrontations, you will learn what really works for you, and what to discard, you will learn combinations as well as come to terms with your natural weaknesses. You will develop strategy and tactics to deal with a variety of opponents!
Continuous sparring practice, if done correctly, should teach you to relax so you can fight a long time as opposed being tense and tiring out quickly. [ Tournament application ]
In point sparring it is best to keep moving and confuse the opponent so he has difficulty keeping you in focus. It has been said that the point system was devised in order to measure the skill and ability of body movements, reflexes and coordination.
World class fighters such as Gary Khoury, Roy Bedard, bob Spoon et al, are truly well rounded practitioners in all aspects of free fighting having developed a varied arsenal of techniques and fluid body motions and shifting.
The “ bouncing” some of them use is nothing but another effective tactic of movement in rapid sequence creating impetus very difficult for the opponent to break. Yet when Gary, for example, scores a hit, the blow carries that “Sanchin grounding” at the last explosive moment of contact.
And finally, the practice of impetus, speed and explosion in point sparring as practiced by Gary, Roy et al, much like the practice of explosive kata, instead of a string of lifeless movements, results in a certain mental discipline which creates the strength of character necessary to “ engage” the enemy.
Practice both continuous and point sparring!
------------------
Van Canna
Three step, continuous, and point sparring should be practiced with equal intensity as the activities have one common denominator: SITUATIONAL DOMINANCE IN CONFRONTATIONAL ENGAGEMENT.
Arguing about the differences in format is pointless, if you will pardon the pun, because all such formats lead to the programming and sharpening of the essentials of physical and mental discipline i.e., fear control, speed power, focus of technique and intent, precision, balance and courage “under fire”!
No it is not real fighting but it is the closest most of us will get to the feeling of it replete with large doses of “adrenaline dump” especially when entering tough tournaments.
And it is not so much the technique that is important but the mechanics of body/mind which allow the successful application of technique, killing or otherwise.
A street fight will present unpredictable unique situations and varied attacks. Your success in defense is predicated upon a belief of control of the situation, with blocking, avoiding, reading openings, and mounting an attack, requiring instantaneous response action or your moves will be useless. To train for the unexpected random “shots” you will find in the street, one of the useful “ activities” in addition to scenario conditioning , will be entering open tournaments with a variety of styles represented.
In addition to speed, you will need “ stopping power”, accuracy of targeting, and extreme physical and mental focus to bring yourself to commit with a strike[s] upon the body of an assailant, as in your mind you will know that if you are not effective in making it impossible for your opponent to attack you again, you will be in deep trouble.
By practicing all three formats of sparring, you will learn how your body really moves in the free space of confrontations, you will learn what really works for you, and what to discard, you will learn combinations as well as come to terms with your natural weaknesses. You will develop strategy and tactics to deal with a variety of opponents!
Continuous sparring practice, if done correctly, should teach you to relax so you can fight a long time as opposed being tense and tiring out quickly. [ Tournament application ]
In point sparring it is best to keep moving and confuse the opponent so he has difficulty keeping you in focus. It has been said that the point system was devised in order to measure the skill and ability of body movements, reflexes and coordination.
World class fighters such as Gary Khoury, Roy Bedard, bob Spoon et al, are truly well rounded practitioners in all aspects of free fighting having developed a varied arsenal of techniques and fluid body motions and shifting.
The “ bouncing” some of them use is nothing but another effective tactic of movement in rapid sequence creating impetus very difficult for the opponent to break. Yet when Gary, for example, scores a hit, the blow carries that “Sanchin grounding” at the last explosive moment of contact.
And finally, the practice of impetus, speed and explosion in point sparring as practiced by Gary, Roy et al, much like the practice of explosive kata, instead of a string of lifeless movements, results in a certain mental discipline which creates the strength of character necessary to “ engage” the enemy.
Practice both continuous and point sparring!
------------------
Van Canna
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Shelly King
Point Sparring, Part II
Van Canna Sir
Leave it to you, to put everything into place and in its proper context. What took so long? Yes, whatever we do we must do with intent. I personally had allowed some of my training to become complacent recently and paid dearly for it during my test on Saturday. Because I had not been practicing with the proper mindset, I allowed myself to be intimidated by my opponent and was unable to make the techniques work. Valuable lesson learned...luckily learned in a safe and controlled environment.
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Shelly
Leave it to you, to put everything into place and in its proper context. What took so long? Yes, whatever we do we must do with intent. I personally had allowed some of my training to become complacent recently and paid dearly for it during my test on Saturday. Because I had not been practicing with the proper mindset, I allowed myself to be intimidated by my opponent and was unable to make the techniques work. Valuable lesson learned...luckily learned in a safe and controlled environment.
------------------
Shelly
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mike arnost
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Thu Oct 29, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: North Andover MA
Point Sparring, Part II
Reading through this thread leads me to ask a naive question, be gentle, I'm new at this; why don't western boxers ever(or rarely)block? We in the "eastern" martial arts spend alot of time practicing it in the dojo, but in the few tournaments I've seen there also is relatively little blocking done.
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Shelly King
Point Sparring, Part II
Bill-san
Thank you for the clarification. I was not intending for it to sound as a dismissal of the others posts. It just caught my attention that perhaps, we weren't seeing the forest for all the trees...it doesn't matter so much what we do but how we do it.
And thank-you for the congratulations on my test.
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Shelly
Thank you for the clarification. I was not intending for it to sound as a dismissal of the others posts. It just caught my attention that perhaps, we weren't seeing the forest for all the trees...it doesn't matter so much what we do but how we do it.
And thank-you for the congratulations on my test.
------------------
Shelly
Point Sparring, Part II
Not meaning to branch out here but if this is a more appropriate topic on another thread, someone let me know...
Well, well, I happened to watch a bit of boxing on the old telly last night (I have grown to love this sport). I noticed the lightweight guys bounced and did the "atomic shuffle" all around the ring - very slippery looking - more so than the heavyweight guys who bob and weaved with upper body but rarely bounced...the middleweight guys tended to do both..hmmm. perhaps I have come to an erroneous conclusion here but I believe it had a lot to do with body mass, conditioning etc.
I did notice also (Gary - perhaps this should go on your thread but Bill mentioned it too) that there is a lot of blocking in boxing. I think the blocks are closer in to the body of the defender making it look like shots are not being blocked. They are not what I would call "attacking" blocks like Uechi and other MAs but they were certainly there...BTW what's the name of the British guy...Prince what's his name...what a frustrating opponent!!!
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Well, well, I happened to watch a bit of boxing on the old telly last night (I have grown to love this sport). I noticed the lightweight guys bounced and did the "atomic shuffle" all around the ring - very slippery looking - more so than the heavyweight guys who bob and weaved with upper body but rarely bounced...the middleweight guys tended to do both..hmmm. perhaps I have come to an erroneous conclusion here but I believe it had a lot to do with body mass, conditioning etc.
I did notice also (Gary - perhaps this should go on your thread but Bill mentioned it too) that there is a lot of blocking in boxing. I think the blocks are closer in to the body of the defender making it look like shots are not being blocked. They are not what I would call "attacking" blocks like Uechi and other MAs but they were certainly there...BTW what's the name of the British guy...Prince what's his name...what a frustrating opponent!!!
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Point Sparring, Part II
Hi everyone:
Check out the new thread I started on blocking.
It's an interesting topic and one we might look further into for all of our sake!
Keep training!
Gary
Check out the new thread I started on blocking.
It's an interesting topic and one we might look further into for all of our sake!
Keep training!
Gary
Point Sparring, Part II
The greatest sap on energy is not bouncing. It is when the person is tensed. Each second the person is expending unneeded energy "fighting" him/herself. Furthermore, the person who is tensed is that much slower because s/he has to relaxed the muscles before being able to move.
Ever try to spar with some athletes who have great endurance but no prior training? These folks can outrun, outswim, outwhatever but will collapse in the ring because they burn out by fighting themselves. They don't know how to spar in a "relaxed" way. Dynamic tension is something you may want to do in a kata, maybe even should do in a kata. It is not, however, what one wants to do in the ring. Actually, the absence of visible tension in a person in the ring is generally a reflection of someone who possess some level of skill and/or confidence.
david
Ever try to spar with some athletes who have great endurance but no prior training? These folks can outrun, outswim, outwhatever but will collapse in the ring because they burn out by fighting themselves. They don't know how to spar in a "relaxed" way. Dynamic tension is something you may want to do in a kata, maybe even should do in a kata. It is not, however, what one wants to do in the ring. Actually, the absence of visible tension in a person in the ring is generally a reflection of someone who possess some level of skill and/or confidence.
david
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Point Sparring, Part II
Shelly
There is more in this thread than you give the many participants credit for. Give it time....you will appreciate much of what has been said when you have participated more. As Gary alluded to earlier, typing or reading about it doesn't quite allow you to "get it". Best to take the Nike (just do it) approach. And it sounds like you are indeed on the right path.
Mike
Glad to have you on board.
There is more "blocking" in boxing than you realize. But it isn't quite the demonstrative activity we think of in beginning kata of karate (note I said "we think of").
First of all, boxers and weapons artists both use one effective defensive tactic - movement. Sorry I don't have the books in front of me now, but in one of my traditional kobudo books (actually a series), there was a list of precepts. One of them basically said that the block was done with the body movement, and the weapon action was there basically to "check" the motion. In western boxing, the practitioner shifts, bobs, and weaves. The hands are in front to help intercept, but mostly only to "check" the offensive techniques. As I stated earlier in the first thread, movement makes blocking - as we think of it - a redundant activity.
But there are other overt blocking motions in boxing. They are just difficult to see. For one, there is a movement in seisan kata (the "salute" in the jump) that is really a classic western boxing block of a roundhouse punch. As my boxing instructor used to say, "Answer the telephone." Also, the early movements in seisan kata demonstrate an application of the simultaneous block and thrust. There is a very famous picture of Muhammed Ali boxing George Foreman in Zaire. Foreman is attempting to throw a left jab, but Ali has skillfully "slipped" the technique and simultaneously caught Foreman on the jaw with a full-body right reverse punch. The unskilled (untrained eye) viewer only sees Foreman's head snapping back and around (clockwise wrt him) from a glove planted in his left front jaw, and sweat spraying off into the night air. But look closer at that photograph. Look at that beautiful block....and everything in one efficient motion. Uechi dojos around the world should have that photo up on their walls. THIS is SEISAN KATA!!! The slip is on the outside instead of the inside, but it's the exact same technique.
There are other quick movements in western boxing that are defenses, but again the untrained eye can't see them. The equivalent of the yoko hajiki uke (side snapping block) is standard in boxing.
Oh and by the way, Mike, we are gentle with the gentle, but welcome all comers. :-)
- Bill
There is more in this thread than you give the many participants credit for. Give it time....you will appreciate much of what has been said when you have participated more. As Gary alluded to earlier, typing or reading about it doesn't quite allow you to "get it". Best to take the Nike (just do it) approach. And it sounds like you are indeed on the right path.
Mike
Glad to have you on board.
There is more "blocking" in boxing than you realize. But it isn't quite the demonstrative activity we think of in beginning kata of karate (note I said "we think of").
First of all, boxers and weapons artists both use one effective defensive tactic - movement. Sorry I don't have the books in front of me now, but in one of my traditional kobudo books (actually a series), there was a list of precepts. One of them basically said that the block was done with the body movement, and the weapon action was there basically to "check" the motion. In western boxing, the practitioner shifts, bobs, and weaves. The hands are in front to help intercept, but mostly only to "check" the offensive techniques. As I stated earlier in the first thread, movement makes blocking - as we think of it - a redundant activity.
But there are other overt blocking motions in boxing. They are just difficult to see. For one, there is a movement in seisan kata (the "salute" in the jump) that is really a classic western boxing block of a roundhouse punch. As my boxing instructor used to say, "Answer the telephone." Also, the early movements in seisan kata demonstrate an application of the simultaneous block and thrust. There is a very famous picture of Muhammed Ali boxing George Foreman in Zaire. Foreman is attempting to throw a left jab, but Ali has skillfully "slipped" the technique and simultaneously caught Foreman on the jaw with a full-body right reverse punch. The unskilled (untrained eye) viewer only sees Foreman's head snapping back and around (clockwise wrt him) from a glove planted in his left front jaw, and sweat spraying off into the night air. But look closer at that photograph. Look at that beautiful block....and everything in one efficient motion. Uechi dojos around the world should have that photo up on their walls. THIS is SEISAN KATA!!! The slip is on the outside instead of the inside, but it's the exact same technique.
There are other quick movements in western boxing that are defenses, but again the untrained eye can't see them. The equivalent of the yoko hajiki uke (side snapping block) is standard in boxing.
Oh and by the way, Mike, we are gentle with the gentle, but welcome all comers. :-)
- Bill
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Shelly King
Point Sparring, Part II
Bill-san
Perhaps it's lack of sleep on my part...but I'm not sure I grasped the intent of your reply. Please clarify. I have the distinct feeling that once again I have been misunderstood.
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Shelly
Perhaps it's lack of sleep on my part...but I'm not sure I grasped the intent of your reply. Please clarify. I have the distinct feeling that once again I have been misunderstood.
------------------
Shelly
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Point Sparring, Part II
Shelly
No big deal...we all have our own perceptions. Van's statements helped you put everything into place and in its proper context. I see them more as additional information to an already rich thread from a number of very well-informed participants.
Keep posting!! Oh....and congratulations on your latest test.
- Bill
No big deal...we all have our own perceptions. Van's statements helped you put everything into place and in its proper context. I see them more as additional information to an already rich thread from a number of very well-informed participants.
Keep posting!! Oh....and congratulations on your latest test.
- Bill
