Michael Kelly's pressure point book

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M. Kelly
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Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by M. Kelly »

Dr Glasheen,
You raise an important point about the unintentional use of deadly force. When I was in the police academy, the local DA was brought in to teach the use of force continuum. Although this was a far from perfect method of establishing the appropriate use of force, it was the only one available at that time and it seemed to work well. However, I can tell you from personal experience that applying such concepts during an altercation with a dangerous suspect is very difficult. I am sure many seasoned police officers will agree.

Thus, I believe the answer to this dilemma lies in education. Knowing the true medical implications of striking certain targets could help prevent the unintentional use of excessive force. For example, knowing that an attack to the carotid sinus could potentially cause an artherosclerotic plaque to rupture and cause a stroke, or possibly lead to cardiac arrest, might sway someone from attacking this area unless it was a life-threatening situation. Conversely, ignorance of the true medical implications of attacking certain areas can quickly lead to the inappropriate use of force.

Although this ignorance can explain the unintentional use excessive force, it does not offer a reasonable defense. Unfortunately, police officers will always be subjected to "Monday morning quarterbacks," and the only defense is knowledge. Thus, it behooves the law enforcement community to know the true medical implications of their physical attacks and techniques.

This also applies to martial artists. It is the responsibility of the martial artist to know just how dangerous a given technique actually is. Stating to a jury that one did not mean to kill or maim someone is a poor defense. After all, this is where the charge of manslaughter comes into play as does the subsequent civil action.

Finally, the following is an interesting article on the issue of unintentional death secondary to commotio cordis by one of the world's leading medical authorities.
Maron, MD, et.al, Criminal Consequences of Commotio Cordis, The American Journal of Cardiology, Vol 89, Jan. 15, 2002
Ted Dinwiddie
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Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by Ted Dinwiddie »

Well, I tried to order the book, but I got some treatise on outlaw biker gangs instead. So I have yet to read any of it.

If a rational discussion is possible between those with an obviously rabid hatred of old eastern paradigms and those who are fascinated and inspired by them, I will be surprised. Differentiate this from those who see some validity in old ways and seek the reasons why. There is no question of needing the wheat separated from the chaff.

Having said that, there is one VERY important aspect of any pressure point discussion that cannot be over emphasized. If your technique is bad, you will not have good results when trying to use any point methodology. It has been stated before that pressure point methodology is a force multiplier, not a magic "off switch." There are no guarantees in this world except eventual death. I have yet to meet an emdee who can guarantee an outcome. So the "they don't work every time" argument is without merit.

This is where some will then say that no one's technique can be good under the stress of the body alarm response. To this I might respond by asking how good is any technique that cannot be performed under such conditions? This could prompt a discussion of meditation and chi gong and the like. Maybe a level of control over our alarm response can be achieved. Maybe if we can do this, then we can learn to apply our techniques with more precision and act with more control.

What I know of chi gong and meditation techniques involves visualization. I can visualize chi flowing in my body. For me, the validity is established by that simple fact. I can get my arms around the concept and begin learning to apply it. The science behind it is beyond me. That is why I am here on Bill's forum and why I tried to buy Dr. Kelly's book.

Pressure points, vital points, however you wish to refer to them, are there and they do "work." The questions of how and why have yet to be answered. Some are trying to find the answers.

------------------
ted

"I learn by going where I have to go." - Theodore Roethke
Sheol
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Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by Sheol »

I appreciate everyone's comments concerning the appropiate application of force, but I don't think that the 'big' issue is the 'lethality' of unarmed attacks. [including pressure point/vital area attacks] Ultimately, whether the 'subdual' approach uses an arm-bar or nerve-cluster strike, the correct response has to be made. The question of usability, reliability, and such could be argued til everyone's sick.

My very real concern is how someone might 'know' when things have escalated. A course on the judicious application of force is something that needs be stressed, especially with such weapons as knives, but they generally FAIL to sufficiently address intention. The most blissful person in the world might not ever 'feel' that his or her life, or the life of another, is in danger. A person who is a little on the paranoid side might fear for his or her life the minute a suspect begins to 'crowd' in. It's somewhat clearer when some pulls a weapon, but what about when someone intends the assault, unarmed. Intentions aren't quite as clear and not every would-be murderer will honestly and outloud, inform the victim that murder, a 'mere' beating, or rape is on the agenda. Further, deception is not below someone who wants to reduce resistance by claiming that the 'only' thing that a victim has to do is to comply in order to survive. Fighting unarmed seems to be straying into that grey area where appropiate response may turn into excessive force and I am not sure that the discussion or the law really takes that into account.

[Edited because I forgot to elaborate...]

[This message has been edited by Sheol (edited June 11, 2002).]
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Bill Glasheen
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Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by Bill Glasheen »

It appears there are many issues here.

1) The issue of discerning whether or not someone's life is/was threatened in a conflict. As was mentioned above, that's a difficult proposition from any point of view - including that of the attacker. From a legal standpoint, one should always seek counsel before opening one's mouth.

2) The issue of the probability of "success" of a technique. Success generally means that the end was achieved and no unintended outcome occurred.

3) The issue of the probability of an unintended consequence.

Given an unintended consequence, there is the issue of both criminal AND civil litigation. From a pragmatic point of view, Bruce Siddle pointed out that municipalities were facing multi-million dollar civil suits, and so were desperate for INFORMATION that could help them avoid "the appearance of impropriety" when an unexplained death occurred. What could people do with better information? Well proper information will aid the police officer when it comes to application of the force continuum. Proper information will aid the defending attorney in criminal and civil proceedings when things don't go as planned. Proper information will aid juries and the public when it comes to the risk - to both parties - of engaging in a physical altercation (so that the responsibility of the outcome can be appropriately assessed).

Ted

Too bad about the ordering snafu. The book is from Paladin Press. ISBN 1-58160-281-2. It is listed for $20. Paladin's order number is 1-800-392-2400. The Paladin catalogue has the most unusual assortment of books I've seen in quite a while.

You bring up a number of important points, Ted, and articulated some of them better than I did. So many people are such binary thinkers in this world. It works or it *****. It's my way or it *****. I'm right and you ******. If I could get away with strictly binary variables in the predictive models I build, life would be so much easier. Alas - and thankfully - the world is much more interesting than that. And thankfully I don't need to go to a single "expert" in this world for all of god's information. Image

Martial arts is one of those worlds that has escaped the discerning eye of scientific, mathematical, anthropological, psychological, and historical professionals for way too long. One of the problems I see is the total lack of quantifiable information.

When I first tried turning my health insurance company on to the concept of predicting who would be most sick next year, I got quite an array of unusual responses. Some expected too much; others expected nothing. The truth of the matter was that there were already "expert opinion" processes in place. When I stepped in and QUANTIFIED how good those processes were (R-squared value, sensitivity, specificity, etc.), then people could see that everything is relative. When you go from expert opinion to objective model and double the yield, you're still not perfect but you've improved your odds of doing the right thing. And when you are "wrong," often the "horseshoes and handgrenades" rule came into play. Image (e.g. close enough).

What's the absolute probability of success of ANY approach to a martial problem? How does approach A compare to approach B? What level of skill and/or training is needed to make either approach work? Work better? What is the probability of failure? What is the consequence of failure? Are there reasonable alternatives after failing? What is the probability of an unintended outcome? What is the consequence of an unintended outcome? What can I do before the fact to manage the risk of an unintended outcome?

We may not be able to be as numerically precise as we'd like, particularly since we don't have enough captured terrorists to experiment on. Image (KIDDING, folks!!!) But certainly we can proceed with the process of learning and discovery.

As to looking for new things in old places, that's a very wise thing to do. Companies like Eli Lilly scour the rainforests for new plants and herbs that can eventually lead to new drug products. Some of the classics of modern medicine (like aspirin) come from nature (willow bark). And sometimes it takes us generations to figure out how it works (COX inhibitor, etc.). Those that turn their noses up at folks that play with the imperfect are missing out on a lot in life.

- Bill
student
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Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by student »

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ted Dinwiddie:
Personally, I (as a pentagonal peg much bruised from being pounded into wrong-shaped openings) would like to see cooler, mutually-respectful heads prevail. I want to learn, screw the agendas and the egos and spare us all from the vitriol.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

HALLELUJAH, Brother Ted!

Well and succinctly said.

student
Ted Dinwiddie
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Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by Ted Dinwiddie »

I contacted Dr. Kelly and he contacted Paladin, so a solution is in the works.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>

Martial arts is one of those worlds that has escaped the discerning eye of scientific, mathematical, anthropological, psychological, and historical professionals for way too long. One of the problems I see is the total lack of quantifiable information.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The other problem is that MA has been one of the refuges of a counterculture that seeks a different way from what they percieve as the mainstream. This "mainstream" is percieved as disdainful of empirical and intuitive understanding; considering these countercultural types to be disenfranchised outsiders. Conversely, the counterculture types are disdainful, even distrustful, of the agenda-governed "insiders."

The truth (whatever that may be) is trampled under foot during the melee that accompanies most exchanges between the camps.

Personally, I (as a pentagonal peg much bruised from being pounded into wrong-shaped openings) would like to see cooler, mutually-respectful heads prevail. I want to learn, screw the agendas and the egos and spare us all from the vitriol.

------------------
ted

"I learn by going where I have to go." - Theodore Roethke
Sheol
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Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by Sheol »

I can't speak for others, but I have mixed feels about martial arts. The material has changed from what was taught to actual actual combatants. Change has to be expected, but it hasn't been, overall, a change for the better. Further, everything must be constantly tested and evaluated, much as any other theory in science, engineering, or medicine, so "combat-tested by Master So-and-so" is not a viable excuse. Why hasn't there been empirical research? I suspect that there is resistance by many to 'measure' their art.

My biggest objection is the 'marketing' aspect of most martial arts which claim self-defense among the other 'benefits'. For me, truth in advertising should be tested and in my experience, martial arts, in general, fail this test. If I was the only one to come to this conclusion and if all such conclusions were based upon experience with a small number of schools and arts, then it might be said that our findings do not represent the majority or that we "expect too much", as I have told on many occasions. However, I do not believe that it to be the case when you have so many private citizens, 'protection' professionals, law enforcement personnel, and combat soldiers testifying that traditional martial arts do not work.

When people ask for self-defense/combative skills, they are not asking to be taught for one or more years before they are capable of self-defense in a real life-threatening situation. Combat firearm classes are an example of direct, to the point, instruction. The excuse that the general public is not 'ready' for such 'deadly' knowledge is, frankly, hogwash. The excuse that the law or insurance requirements prevent proper instruction, is also false.

The truth is that practical combative techniques are simple and can be taught in less than one month. Combative training beyond this is for 'finesse', the kind of things that separate proficiency from expertise, practical from methodical, and amateur from professional. There is no room to blame failure of the technique or bad instruction on lack of skill by the student. Yes, I believe that either something works or it doesn't. The only question with 'wiggle room' is what is a technique is good for. If a technique requires that an opponent behaves "just so" or attacks "like this", it isn't practical and years of practice won't change it.

Regarding police techniques for aggressive subjects, most officers will concur that their training is woefully inadequate. Fear and ignorance prevent effective techniques from being taught to them. Instead, they are taught 'safe' techniques that do not work. By "work", I mean that they achieve the desired outcome reliably. When these techniques do not work, the officers are forced to 'turn it up', resulting in 'excessive force'. "That technique not working? Use more power." That is the formula that results in most 'excessive force' incidents, not some unintentional sequence of 'death' touches. (No offense intended to Mr. Glasheen or Mr. Kelly.)

So are traditional martial arts useless? I don't believe so. If I did, I wouldn't take the time or spend the money on them. As it is, I actually enjoy the arts but hate the BS, just like many of the posters here. I enjoy sport boxing and Boxe Francaise' (sport savate), there's nothing wrong with that. I enjoy fencing, nothing wrong with that. I like Silat and Kali. They are perfectly good arts. Tai Chi, Wing Chun, and Muay Tai, all of them are wonderful arts. It's just too much to ask that every 'John' and 'Jane', who wants to protect themselves, invest precious years of their lives and lots of money to filter out the $#!^ from what works and hammer it into something practical. It places the burden soley upon the students, rather than the instructors who often claim to be teaching practical self-defense in the first place! That sort of attitude is unfair, misleading, and less than honorable.

Yes, I know that most schools are businesses and that instructors must meet costs of operation, but the need to care for the kids, which are the meat-and-potatoes of most operations, has taken over the industry. It's sad, but 'backyard' martial artists make less compromises than their better equipped (and uniformed) brick-and-mortar schools.

This is such a frustrating topic for me. I have loved martial arts since I was a child but the past 15 years of research has really pained me.
Sheol
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Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by Sheol »

I want to make one thing clear. I mostly fault the schools/instructors for any failure, even when the technique is bad. Styles are just varying movements and positions. Schools decide the curriculum and approach. Instructors teach. The last two are responsible for deciding upon what to teach and how to teach it.
M. Kelly
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Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by M. Kelly »

Nobody ever said excessive force was caused by "death touches." The point I was trying to make is that law enforcement officers need to know just how dangerous their techniques are because if they inadvertently cause serious injury they are subject to prosecution and civil lawsuits.

Using the force continuum is relatively easy when it comes theory. However, it is much more difficult to apply this concept when someone is trying to rip your head off. Yet police officers are expected to use just enough force to control a situation and not an ounce more. This difficult task is only exacerbated by the fact that police officers' actions are always scrutinized. Thus, I was postulating that educating our police officers on the true medical implications of self-defense and restraining techniques might help to reduce the number of unintentional injuries and civil lawsuits.

As for the question of excessive force, I think this is a multifaceted problem. There will always be individuals who intentionally use excessive force and this is a separate issue. I was referring to accidental deaths and injuries that can cause even the best cop to face a civil lawsuit.

I agree that the fault lies in the teachers and that all styles of martial arts are great. As for the test of the "best self-defense," I just don't see how such a question can be answered given all the variables of actual combat. The way I see it, eventually it comes down to the individual, not the style.
Sheol
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Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by Sheol »

Mr. Kelly, I understand the direction you want to go. It's my fault for wanting to pull the discussion towards issues not particularly focused on the topic.

I'll cease the line here.

The solution I then propose is animal-testing. [Awaiting daggers from animal-rights groups.] Physiologically, there are differences in placement and "mind", but the nervous system of certain lab animals bear acute resemblences to the way human respond to stimuli, chemical changes, and injury/trauma. Is this a feasible approach? We already use animals to test and analyze drugs, injury, and surgery. Pressure-point testing could easily be accommodated in a lab setting. Further, different chemical dispositions can be checked. The risks to the animals are unknown, but I'd be willing to venture that most will be safe from ill effects.

I like animals. I really do. I just believe that animal testing is still the most effective way to test without endangering human lives.
Ian
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Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by Ian »

You mean, whack the animals and see how they'd respond? Some problems:

1) the gulf between animal and human. We do not always respond the same. They cannot say what they felt. They will not suffer from preconceptions the way people might, another confounder.

2) the lack of analogous kyusho chart for dogs.

3) funding. Who benefits enough to spend the dough?

4) certainty of obstruction from ethics boards.

5) the fact that an endless series of KO's has demonstrated the relative safety of kyusho on people.
jorvik

Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by jorvik »

there seem to be more questions than answers and, i am still trying to refine my sledgehammer tactics.
I do think that knowledge is a good thing, but now the conversation has moved on to levels of force.how much force, is too much?
can we operate with such restrictions?. Even presupposing, that pressure point fighting is up and running, and i dont believe that it is( at least not to the level which many claim) there are going to be fatalities. there are just too many incalculable variables.
I am attacked i defend myself, i may be very fightened, and over react,not fully know my own strength, be too intoxicated.my adversary may have a congenital weakness, there are a million and one possibilities, and just as many likely outcomes.
we have just witnessed tyson being knocked out, but seriously, would you like to face someone like that? and he hasnt even got a black belt, would my pressure point attacks work on him?
I know mr. Glasheen has said that having to fight a 25 year old thai boxer
etc. etc. is not going to happen but can you really be so sure ? the most probable reason to be attacked is robbery, someone is going to beat you senseless then take your money.most likely they will see you as a victim, or they wont attack. so right from the word go, youre at a disadvantage. Why do they see you as a victim? because your older,smaller, better dressed? who knows?
recently in my city, an 18 year old was stabbed, and is now critically ill. why? because a group of youths wanted his mobile phone, and he wouldnt give it up. could i honestly say that, that couldnt happen to me,
quite frankly i couldnt.We cannot shape reality to suit our ideas,or our beliefs. the situation with the police has got to ridiculous proportions.If a policeman hurts someone gratuitously, and not in the course of his duties then he has committed a criminal act himself.he should face severe punishment. but if he has to restrain a dangerous criminal he should be given all our support.....in the courts as well!!!
as Doshin So ( the founder of nippon shorenji-kempo ) said.
" strength without justice is violence!!"
but " justice without strength is useless".
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TSDguy
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Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by TSDguy »

"and he hasnt even got a black belt"

That's classic! Image
M. Kelly
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Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by M. Kelly »

I read in the Bubishi that the author (P McCarthy) witnessed an old master striking pressure points on a horse. I have also read about this practice elsewhere but I just can't seem to recollect exactly where. So it seems that this is, in fact, an old practice.

I think hypothetically, practicing/experimenting on animals is a good idea but in reality, it is fraught with problems. Why the need though? There are countless numbers of individuals practicing on each other and we can look at medical case reports.

As for the fact that there are no injuries from this practice, how can you be so sure? What is going to happen down the road? How many individuals suffer from injuries that they never link to pressure points? There are many case reports of both instant and delayed injuries induced by trauma to areas that coincide with dim mak/kyusho points. For example, the stomach nine point over the carotid sinus. Interestingly, blunt trauma to this area has resulted in strokes up to ten years later with most occurring the first week after the trauma. This is all documented in the literature and not just hearsay.

In addition, there are cases of assault victims and martial artists who received blows to the solar plexus and died instantly. In another interesting case, a young girl was struck on the bladder ten point and died instantly. Autopsy revealed no obvious cause of death and the mechanism was thought to have been vagal arrest from occipital nerve stimulation. In another case, a martial artist who was held around the neck in a chokehold suffered a stroke hours later. This was explained by an embolus from the torn intima of the carotid artery. Furthermore, there are many cases of sudden death during assaults resulting from what is known as a traumatic subarachnoid hemorrhage. Interestingly, most of these cases have an ecchymosis (bruise) directly over a major point. There are many more cases like this but the problem is most martial artists do not know where to look.

I would never want to face Mike Tyson. Period. I do not care how good someone is at pressure points, a style, or whatever. There is no one method that will make someone invincible. That is why character development is probably the most important aspect of martial arts training.
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Bill Glasheen
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Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Certainly one must face the whole subject of self defense with realism. Nothing is going to make you invincible - not even a hidden firearm. The Tueller drill demonstrates that quite nicely. All one can do is improve the odds. Preoccupation with invincibility will be a frustrating and fruitless endeavor.

As for animal models, well I might add that I speak often from the experience in the dog lab. My advisor and his wife were preoccupied with the hierarchy of control systems, and the role of the autonomic nervous system. There is much to be gained by scouring what is already there. It is not necessary to go from A to Z in one study to prove a point. In fact...it won't even answer all the questions. It's best to take issues like this one small piece at a time. I feel with nearly 100% certainty that this whole dim mak or pressure point or kyusho "thing" will prove to be a collection of issues - and nonissues - when all stones are left unturned.

There are many concepts worth looking at between here and total understanding. Many can be studied - with humans - without KO-ing anybody. Many more can be studied to some extent with epidemiologic data as well as pieces and parts of animal research.

Demonstrating the concept of facilitation would be a wonderful camp activity, and I believe it can be done without harm to the participants. The practical aspect of that is limited only by the imagination. Perhaps some of us can take that discussion offline - particularly in the event that we want the study to be blinded.

FWIW

- Bill
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