Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Bill's forum was the first! All subjects are welcome. Participation by all encouraged.

Moderator: Available

User avatar
Bill Glasheen
Posts: 17299
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY

Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by Bill Glasheen »

jorvik

Please buy Michael Kelly's book, and then join in on the discussion. He talks about that.

For example, you can stimulate A fibers or C fibers on the same spot on the body, depending on how hard you hit. They give two entirely different reactions.

You can massage the carotid sinus and create a rather pleasant response (lowering the stress component of the autonomic nervous system). You can hit it hard and cause a rather unpleasant vasovagal response. It's a dose/response kind of thing.

There are also (allegedly) issues about hitting point A first and then point B, vs. hitting point A first and then point C. This is the really complicated stuff that deserves careful discussion.

- Bill
Ian
Posts: 608
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Charlottesville, VA USA
Contact:

Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by Ian »

I had asked: "Has anyone not familiar with pressure points been asked to chart their locations and frequency, with comparison afterwards to the charts?"

MK replied: No, the bruise is not on the scalp. The area of the bruise is located over the TW17 point. What locations? What difference does the size of the bruise make?
What is the relevance? I only referred to one location.

You said they had a bruise over a major point. If you had said over one major point, I would have asked which one, but instead I envisioned people with bruises on their scalps and someone familiar with kyusho noting that under each bruise lay a point, and I hypothesized the bruises would be large enough that they'd HAVE to lie over a point. Hence the confusion. What do you think it means that TW-17 overlies this bruise?

"What does "traditional teaching" mean? Are you saying that something just can't be possible if you were not taught about it?"

Of course not.

What I mean is that in neurology when we discussed traumatic intracranial hemorrhage the focus was on subdurals and epidurals, not SAH. When SAH was discussed it was usually in the context of AVM's or berry aneurysms. When I did a trauma rotation it was the same way. I've run into subdural/epidural bleeds on the boards, but not traumatic SAH. The former are well known enough that they make it into popular media (ER, Montaigue's book, "doogie howser" etc) whereas the SAH does not. I haven't looked at frequency of such events with head injury but I wager there's a reason the discussion is skewed, and that if we looked at 1000 head traumas there'd be a lot more hematomas than SAH. Perhaps that's skewed if you just look at assaults, and that's why I'd like to know more about frequency of injuries with assaults than what can occasionally happen without knowing how often.

I also bet that if a fighting system were based on observation of SAH after head impact we wouldn't have dots to aim for but rather broader areas that can reproduce the kind of impact and rotation that lead to the injury. The other thing is that if people were looking at what made people lose fights, it'd be getting beaten just about anywhere in the head. The result is the other guy has the upper hand and wins. Do you need to cause an SAH to pull that off?

If the observation of an effect drove the identification of St-9, are we to suppose there's a similarly dramatic if low frequency phenomenon behind every point? If so, what are they? If not, aren't we just looking for a correlation and explanation when we find it and ignoring instances when we don't?
User avatar
Bill Glasheen
Posts: 17299
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY

Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Ian

I'm not sure where this is going. If you're looking for someone to defend the relevance and use of each and every point on the acupuncture chart, you won't find me participating in that discussion. If you're looking for someone to rationalize acupuncture point fighting in its anachronistic whole, you won't find me participating in that discussion.

I do, however, find it interesting that there are "owie points" in the same location as "dim mak points." I can presume that there were just as many lunatic martial artists in the past as there are today, and that there were groups where people beat on each other (or their prisoners) until they noticed an effect. Certainly if you read books like The Rape of Nanking, you will see that conquering armies did indeed "practice" on their conquests (along with a little bit of r@pe and pillage). Back before the days of modern dissection, they looked at the human body and saw a shell and some hot spots. I can see the notes now... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Hit on that thingy point. Subject went nuts.
Well...one can imagine that the "science" (for lack of a better word) was a bit "inexact" (for lack of a better word). But their power of observation may have been useful enough to chart a few interesting things.

Today you and I have the advantage of seeing a human, and undressing it of its skin, so to write. Anybody with an anatomy book can figure out why all the "hot spots" on the arm in kotekitae are what they are. We understand why some have a "glass jaw" while others do not. We know why someone "gets the wind knocked out of them." How far does this go? How much of the body of "knowledge" is relevant, and why does it work? What reference frame - if any - can one use to go from one mapping of the body to another? And lets go on the assumption that history was written by the victors, and not the vanquished (thus the presence of a tiger system and the lack of a dodo system).

I have some of the same questions you have, Ian. I've read some of the material, and see it as something different that what many of the TCM kyusho people preach. Some if it is interesting. Some of it is not so interesting, or not very practical. Some of it is possible. Some of it is improbable, but worthy of concern in a dojo or law enforcement agency where risk needs to be managed.

We can torture each other for sport all day long on these forums. In a few days (assuming a few more people will have MK's book by then), I'd like to review it piece by piece and see what we can learn from it. Please, please don't talk about Earle Montaigue's "stuff" while we are doing that. If you'll bother to get MK's book, you'll see it's nothing like the heap of "something" that you find in these old relics. But I'm willing to bet that some of the primary sources will mean more to us once we look at this subject more closely. If we are lucky, we may even learn a few useful fighting concepts.

- Bill
Ian
Posts: 608
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Charlottesville, VA USA
Contact:

Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by Ian »

Bill, just trying to figure out how the kyusho and the intracranial hemorrhages are related, with the ultimate goal being, I suppose, to know how to best strike the head to hurt people we don't like while leaving people we do like uninjured. As side benefits: the fascinating discussion on whether the traditional kyusho points and theories do anything for us in 2002 and learning more about the body and how it works and stops working.

Why *do* some people have glass jaws and others not?
M. Kelly
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2002 6:01 am
Contact:

Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by M. Kelly »

Ian,
I see where the confusion was and I apologize for not being clear initially. I agree that it would be ridiculous to look at bruises on the scalp status post an assault and correlate them with dim mak points. I mentioned the bruise and the TW17 point because I thought it was an interesting correlation. In addition, this point is often struck front-to-back or back-to-front; both of which can cause rotation of the head. This point also lies directly over the facial nerve root and part of a cervical vertebrate. I mention this because: 1, stimulation of the facial nerve root can cause a vagal response, 2. if the cervical vertebrate where violently translated (moved in a lateral direction for those unfamiliar with medical terms), it could cause sheering stress on the vertebral artery and thus, contribute to a traumatic subarachnoid hemorrhage.

I see the bruise as an interesting correlation. I found from reading the literature, that most of the traumatic subarachnoid hemorrhages are associated with assaults and alcohol. The question then becomes whether the alcohol increases one's vulnerability to a traumatic subarachnoid hemorrhage like it does for diffuse axonal injury; or if the intoxicated individuals are more likely to be involved in fights. Either way, it is an interesting correlation that a bruise can be found in enough fatal assault cases that it is actually looked for by forensic pathologists. Thus, I think there may have been an observed cause and effect relationship established a long time ago.

I agree that epidural and subdural hematomas are more common but it is interesting that traumatic subarachnoid hemorrhages are often found in fatal assault cases that involved blows with the hands and feet. I think there is a benefit to linking the area of trauma with a point because it provides a plausible explanation for why the point was considered lethal. In a way, this provides some credibility to many of the warnings about how some of the points are very dangerous. This type of approach, although it is not the most scientific, gives us a more logical and scientific approach to the study of pressure points.

This brings us to the comment you made about why the points are referred to as points and not broader targets. Perhaps, as Dr Glasheen implied, many of the original targets were the areas where people found "sore spots" or where they observed a given effect. Maybe the correlation to the location of the points came later after someone with a background in acupuncture observed the connection. Conversely, perhaps the legend about the origin of dim mak has a shred of truth in its' root. It is conceivable that an early martial artist, or martial artists, could have experimented with attacking the forbidden acupuncture points: those points that were found to have harmful effects, and then continued experimenting with other points until they found which ones were useful for attacking. Then as this art progressed, the use of the points was refined as effects were observed and recorded. Interestingly, the legend states that there were only 36 original points. However, the legend also states that diciples of the founder, increased this number first to 72, then 108, and then to 360. Who knows?

I can see how observation could have led to the use of the stomach 9 point, the facial points, and even the TW17 point but I don't know if I would say that all of the points were found by merely observation. Although we can never be sure because we can only speculate, I think the use of the points may have evolved from a combination of experimentation and observation. I think we may find different explanations for different points without a distinct unifying theory as to how they came into use or how they work.

The question I have is: what difference does it make how these points were found to be effective? I am more concerned with where we go from here.
User avatar
Bill Glasheen
Posts: 17299
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY

Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by Bill Glasheen »

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Why *do* some people have glass jaws and others not?
It is my understanding that a large gap between brain and skull can contribute to the contracoup forces on the brain when the jaw is struck, leading to an increased probability of concussion.

I had a rather entertaining ride through the literature when attempting to find a definitive study on this. I believe this hypothesis must have been around for some time; I couldn't find a "classic" study that I could refer to. In any case, you'd be surprised at the kinds of studies being done out there these days on "knockouts" (concussion) - restrospective human evaluations, animal (rat) model, mechanical model, and mathematical model.

Poor Mr. Rat - he never knew what hit him! Image

- Bill
User avatar
Bill Glasheen
Posts: 17299
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY

Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by Bill Glasheen »

By the way, if someone can tell me what the cavum septum pellucidum is, then I believe I may have a good reference on this.

- Bill
M. Kelly
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2002 6:01 am
Contact:

Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by M. Kelly »

Was the rat hit on GB14? Or perhaps GB20? Image
Ian
Posts: 608
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Charlottesville, VA USA
Contact:

Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by Ian »

Dr. Kelly, thanks for the reply, which answered a bunch of my questions about SAH in the setting of trauma.

A story of my own re: vasovagal and cardiac arrest:

A 30 something yr old woman with history of epilepsy was found to have increased seizures and an ambulance was called. They arrived and found her seizing and gave some valium. She was taken by ambulance to our ER, and en route the squad placed a nasal trumpet (tube from nose into back of throat) to partially secure her airway since they were not an ACLS squad or able to intubate should she need it (she didn't then). At some point they checked a "jugular artery pulse" and found it absent-- she was not monitored. Heart sounds were absent, BP not mentioned, EKG not done. She was intubated on arrival to the ER and per their records, she awoke without medications or shocks. EKG done only by the she had a pulse and BP was normal.

Reported as a case of cardiac arrest caused by a vasovagal, I suspect she just vasovagaled deeply enough to fool the squad, which wasn't experienced with critical care.

She did fine. (after an ICU course with us notable for status epilepticus--ongoing seizures--loaded on dilantin and phenobarb after 10 of ativan failed to stop them).
User avatar
Bill Glasheen
Posts: 17299
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY

Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by Bill Glasheen »

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Reported as a case of cardiac arrest caused by a vasovagal, I suspect she just vasovagaled deeply enough to fool the squad, which wasn't experienced with critical care.
I suspect that you suspect right. I have my own personal experience with rescue squads that leaves me understanding their limitations, in spite of their best intentions. An appartment mate of mine was epileptic with grand mal seizures. He hadn't seized in years, and assumed things were better, so he stopped taking his dilantin. Drank a few beers one night. Next day I am awakened to a guy banging on my door, telling me that something's really wrong with a fellow at the bus stop that has a driver's license with my address on it. I ran partially clothed without shoes to the spot, KNOWING what it was. I told the rescue squad people there that he was epileptic. He was coming out of the seizure, was very disoriented, and was pleading with me for help. Some bozo from the squad got in my face, and started yelling at me that this was not seizure activity. She kept screaming it at me again and again and again. I came very close... Instead, I rode with him in the squad truck to the ER to protect him.

All came out fine. I know they meant well but...

Back to the anecdote you mentioned Ian... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
vagal escape n: resumption of the heartbeat that takes place after stimulation of the vagus nerve has caused it to stop and that occurs despite the continuing of such stimulation
There's nothing like witnessing that in the dog lab. My physiology instructor got hold of the vagus with a Grass nerve stimulater, and cranked it up. Watching the heartbeat and blood pressure go down ... to ..... almost ..... nothing ....... and then come back again is pretty amazing. Remembering freshman biology lab where I pulled a frog heart out of the body and had it beating in a beaker of Ringer's solution reinforces the concept. Understanding cardiac physiology, Hodgkin Huxley model, leaky ion channels, etc., etc. gives you a deep understanding of how this works. Pretty neat to have seen one in real life! Image

MK

Kidding aside, I though you might enjoy the abstract. I found quite a few out there that, in my end-of-day-mood, struck me as amusing. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Neurosurgery 1978 Sep-Oct;3(2):176-80

Concussion: comparison of humans and rats.

Parkinson D, West M, Pathiraja T.


Concussion is the most primitive and probably the most simple central nervous system response to an outside agent. Although millions of neurons undergo a very rapid reversal with loss and restoration of function, many physicians argue that every knockout blow leaves some residual damage, i.e., some or all of these neurons stop short of recovery. Clinical experience shows a wide discrepancy in the appearance or persistence of certain signs and symptoms after all types of head injury, but particularly after concussing blows, when third party or grievance cases are involved. Using slow motion filmstrips of boxing ring knockouts, we established a grading system for concussion and duplicated these grades in nonanesthetized rats. When we compared the performance, learning, and memory of concussed rats with their preconcussion performance and with the performance of nonconcussed controls, we were unable to find any differences.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can you imagine getting IRB approval for that protocol these days?

- Bill
Evan Pantazi
Posts: 1897
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Location: N. Andover, Ma. USA
Contact:

Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by Evan Pantazi »

Well I just got back from Spain where we had many skeptics change their minds as they dropped to the floor.

This thread seems to be a hot item and I am glad it has gotten past the "this won't work' stage and progressed into the "How does this work stage"...a long time to turn, but none the less. It also has not turned too heated, well done to all.

I just saw the book I ordered briefly last night in the midst of Jet Lag, so I will refrain from comment a tad longer. I just chimed in to give a shameless plug...or maybe not.

Tomorrow in North Andover, MA at my school we will have 4 - 7th Dans a 6th and a 5th in Kyusho Jitsu for an all day set of sessions. We will be working this standard striking methods as well as much more advanced material (Including Kiai Jitsu). So if you are interested go to: this page- click here!

Mention the Uechi site and we will extend the preregistration price...this way you can see Kyusho/Dim Mak performed in live action as well as more advanced practices which may or may not be explainable by these medical examples.

------------------
Evan Pantazi
www.kyusho.com
User avatar
Bill Glasheen
Posts: 17299
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY

Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Evan

We all still have our qi about us. Image

Actually nobody's bought the whole bag of tricks yet. We're busy flogging the material with nunchakus, trying in earnest to separate the wheat from the chaffe. I suspect that's been the real concern all along. Nobody doubts a fellow can knock out an opponent. How that can happen, why, and what not are the real issues. And like all martial arts demos and "magic shows," there's a bit of it that is MUCH less than what meets the eye. Nonetheless, I still believe it's an important part of martial history, and a springboard for discussion on practical applications. There's also the issue of precautions that I think has not been addressed properly by many deep in the dojo application side of things. This isn't the sort of thing one should fool around with cavalierly - practical or not - unless one isn't concerned about criminal and civil consequences when things go wrong.

A little shameless promotion is appropriate since it's on the subject.

So about that trip... Still no postcard?

- Bill
Evan Pantazi
Posts: 1897
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Location: N. Andover, Ma. USA
Contact:

Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by Evan Pantazi »

Glasheen Sensei, et al.

I couldn't get enough time to even find a postcard! 12 Seminars in 4 countries in under 1 month, A photo shoot and video for the largest Martial Arts Magazine in the world...by the way coming to the US in October (BUDO 56 coutries and in 6 languages)...it was a great success, but I'm Fried.

I worked with Police, Military, and Medical people along with the Martial Artists. Spain alone 14 KO's (and hundreds of incapacitating methods) and almost all skeptical at first, but I enjoyed, every second! Got to set up 3 new schools of Kyusho in the European and Norwegian Comunity, as well as set up future programs in 2 more!

Nobody is asking if any "tricks" are believable anymore, as we have reached critical mass and are now having trouble handling the influx of people wanting better explainations. Kyusho is not all about KO's...it is the instant incapacitaion of the opponents attack, without observable physical damage to be brought to bear in a legal battle, like self protection on multiple levels...sort of like a corporation.

As for these Medical implications, over the years I still see more injuries and damage in "Sport Karate" and regular Dojo "Accidents" that far exceed the 0% that we have seen in Kyusho (2 decades of observation and testing so far). Besides with no visible, measurable or set paradigm for trauma or physical damage linkable to Kyusho, the burden of proof would not be with the Kyusho Practioner but with the legal team trying to prove that it was a strike recieved 10 years ago and setting the precedence for something that is just hypnosis, power of suggestion and dosn't even exist!

To fool around with any martial endeavour requires risk...that's why we do it! Cavalierly striking the body for even conditioning runs certain Medical risk to anatomical functions as processes as well.

Everyday the confidence, skill, understanding grows as the knees (nobody ever thinks about all those air kicks and the "long term" ramifications) and every other body part deminishes...glad I didn't wait to figure out every detail before action, as sometimes action never comes.

Oh to the book, got the first chapter read and this is information we had from the beginning. It's on one of Dillmans first tapes that Dr Ellis (Nuerosurgeon) explaines the Nervous system and the effects, but it is still valuable to see more on the subject.


------------------
Evan Pantazi
www.kyusho.com
User avatar
Bill Glasheen
Posts: 17299
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY

Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Evan

I'm glad you are doing well. It's nice to hear that good people survive "the system."

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Kyusho is not all about KO's...it is the instant incapacitaion of the opponents attack, without observable physical damage to be brought to bear in a legal battle, like self protection on multiple levels...sort of like a corporation.
Interesting definition.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
over the years I still see more injuries and damage in "Sport Karate" and regular Dojo "Accidents" that far exceed the 0% that we have seen in Kyusho (2 decades of observation and testing so far).
Agree about the "Sport Karate" thing. Alas that's not the way the legal system works. People don't sue makers of knives or football coaches, because society EXPECTS people to get hurt there on occasion and they are icons of our society. Kyusho, on the other hand, has no such grassroots support. I'm afraid your average jury wouldn't be so understanding, or even understand it at all.

As for the 0%, I respectfully disagree. I know of cases of cardiac arrest in the dojo from experimentation with such, and the practitioners were too stupid to call for proper medical attention. Talk with Ron Klein some time about this (not sure if you know him...). Also, Bruce Siddle can tell you of many, many REAL cases of officers accidentally killing someone for seemingly unknown reasons, and bringing the wrath of the criminal AND civil legal system down on themselves and the municipalities that employ them. There is a knowledge void here that needs to be filled.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
To fool around with any martial endeavour requires risk...that's why we do it! Cavalierly striking the body for even conditioning runs certain Medical risk to anatomical functions as processes as well.
Very true. However some risks are understood (and can be communicated in advance) whereas others are not. That's a problem. Furthermore, death is a fairly "terminal" risk, and in a category all its own.

On the flip side of things, Evan, understanding these risks better will help everyone in the dojo, as we are practicing "kyusho" in the dojo every day, whether we realize it or not. Knowing what the risks are in a contact activity helps us properly deal with it in a proactive manner. To date, these risks have been both OVERstated (check out Montaigue quotes above) and UNDERstated (by unmentioned folks on the seminar circuit). Neither situation is ideal. As Forrest Gump might say, "Knowledge is good." More knowledge is better in this regard.

Glad you have started the book. I'm ready to shut this thread down and start talking specifics in some new threads. Your participation would be valued and appreciated. The material will naturally lead to discussion on the specific issues above.

- Bill
Post Reply

Return to “Bill Glasheen's Dojo Roundtable”