LeeDarrow: "If I can stop an annoying person from shoving me around by a simple kyusho application, such as a finger point to a nerve cluster (as opposed to uraken to the temple, forinstance), I have not overreacted and, hence, limit my liability to some extent. Not to mention that I have expended little to no effort to slow or stop the problem and, perhaps, not even attracted the notice of those around me.
Strategically, making sure no one sees what happens is a good idea from a number of standpoints - witnesses cannot even say for certain that I ever touched the guy."
Your response is geared towards dealing with the low-threats that haven't escalated to actual violence. Even then, you're assuming that it works. If it doesn't, you might have escalated the encounter. If so, it doesn't matter that few people (if anyone) noticed your touching him.
If the only threat you'll ever encounter is limited to the above, then such a response MIGHT be 'okay'. At the very least, you PROBABLY have time to recognize the 'point of no return'. Still, a low-level threat isn't why people train themselves to fight.
Further, you might not know when you're facing a high-level threat. Is that obnoxious guy that's shoving or approaching you, just a 'regular' "Joe" or a repeat violent offender? Is a wallet the only thing that he's carrying or is there a knife or gun? Does he want to harass you, rob you, or kill you? Do you want to wait to find out before you decided to use real force?
If you're truly interested in minimizing liability, it would be important to draw attention! By behaving in an obviously non-threatening manner, such as putting your hands up and palms forward, and vocalizing that you're not looking for trouble and that you want them to leave your alone, you publicly demonstrate before all that you don't want to fight. If the only thing they want is ego gratification, then you've satisfied it, without force and with minimal energy, though perhaps at the expense of your public image (if you care). If they're truly wanting trouble, they'll attack anyways, though perhaps they'll wait until later.
When we can talk, we'd better talk. When it's time to fight, we had better fight. Hopefully, we know when it's time for either.
Pressure points should not be used alone by themselves. They are neither reliable, nor do they always have sufficient effect when they do work. Most effective fighting arts, both 'Eastern' and 'Western', utilize "pressure points" or "vital targets" in their techniques (though they call them different things), but that's not what makes them effective. If pressure point attacks in the technique work, well they'll make the fight easier. If not, hopefully your techniques won't be any less effective without them.
Michael Kelly's pressure point book
Moderator: Available
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Michael Kelly's pressure point book
jorvik
People from more than a few martial styles - including and especially Uechi ryu - do (or used to do) demonstrations where they are hit in the throat or stomach with no apparent ill effect. I've personally been there, done that. Actually my favorite - and a crowd pleaser - was the full force "groin kick" (catching the kick with the hip adductor muscles). In the 1980s, I did several of these demonstrations at the halftime of UVa basketball games - one that happened to be broadcast on national television. It was a popular way at the time to wow large audiences and get recruits.
Some say it is ki that gives the person the power. That's what another martial artist told a crowd of people when he observed me doing the demonstrations.
The throat shots depend a lot on the anatomy of the individual, and to a certain extent on the ability to control the position and tone of the neck muscles. Like Conan O'Brian who jokes about it all the time, I have a big Irish head. I also have a big, thick neck that supports that Irish head. Bruce Siddle once tried to do the lateral neck restraint on me for demo purposes, and quit because he couldn't get my face to turn red. He settled on the pale-skinned Buzzy Durkin instead. I understand that Tomoyose Ryuko also used to do demos where he would have a student hit him in the neck.
The stomach thing is no big deal. Being fat helps; fat is nature's padding. Taiji is often practiced by folks later in life whose bodies can no longer take aerobic or high-impact activity. Aside from the layer of fat, proper muscle tone and a relaxed interior (letting the air escape out the throat) is the rest of it. The kicking shields are a great demo to how the air thing works with the air escape valve. And the proper tone of the stomach muscles helps to create an elastic (non-energy-absorbing) collision.
But if you want to spread the rumor that I have lots of qi, I'll complete the picture by growing a beard and sitting on a soft, silk pillow.
To others
Warning...author is stepping on to soap box
This is getting into a bit of a tired old argument. The truth of the matter is that there is no perfect weapon.
Folks often make arguments about a certain way of fighting being inferior, and then counter with hyperbolic descriptions (sledgehammer, Mack Truck, etc,) of their deadly methods. WHAT methods? What makes them infallible? What is the probability of success, and under what conditions? What are the vulnerabilities? Have they been field tested? Often? Were there witnesses? Was the opponent "worthy?" What happens when the person fights in another venue? Against more than one BG?
And how often is the average person going to face a 25-year-old, Thai Boxer, Western Boxer, Delta Force, BJJ, Man 'o Doom? And if such a person is so lethal, why aren't they training to be such a man-o-war?
Tom Crawford is a local, no-nonsense firearms instructor, expert marksman, and former law enforcement officer. One of Tom's hobbies is to sit in on the autopsy of a fallen bad guy. Tom will study what happened before the killing, and then actually look to see what happened inside. He related a story to me once of a shooting that blew out one of the ventricles of a crazed man's heart. That man continued to beat on the police officers - and inflict great damage - for another THIRTY seconds before falling. OK now - tell me that anyone here can hit someone so hard that they can blow the main pumping chamber out of a heart? And if that can't stop a Bad Guy like this, what are you going to do?
It's all a game of options, possibilities, probabilities, and consequences. I defy any individual to tell me they will respond perfectly when the s*** comes down.
Yes, I am capable of great force with an extreme implement in the force continuum. But the likelihood that I'll even threaten to use such a device in an effective behavior modification scenario is pretty insignificant.
Meanwhile, folks that fight (REAL fighting) professionally like bouncers and law enforcement officers must work with real rules of engagement. Excessive force is going to get one's fanny thrown in jail long before one gets a chance to get good at anything. And after being judged by 12, somebody's going to making time with their wife/girlfriend while they are somebody's b**** in jail. Talk about an ultimate pressure point attack...
Nothing's perfect. Nothing's certain. Nothing works in all venues. Everything's a game of chance, and different actions affect the probability of a good outcome. And there are many ways to define a good outcome. The mind is a greater tool in self-defense - in more ways than one - than many people realize or are willing to admit.
The biggest problem here now is that nobody here has yet to read the material. Nobody is even certain what "it" is yet. And when you do, you'll realize that you've been messing with "it" all along, whether you realize it or not. And to study "it" is to know it, understand it, and THEN judge what is of use.
Do not judge all of the pressure point business by what you see in demonstrations or by what claims are made by charlatans in the community. As Tracy aptly puts it, the whole body is a pressure point. Some are more efficient at using them than others.
Off of soap box.
Anyone interested in buying a few books, xeroxing a few articles in the peer-reviewed literature, and chatting for a bit? Doing so might take the "magic" out of all of this. That would be a good thing. It also might help us understand the dangers involved with certain individuals doing their own "magic shows" in this venue.
- Bill
People from more than a few martial styles - including and especially Uechi ryu - do (or used to do) demonstrations where they are hit in the throat or stomach with no apparent ill effect. I've personally been there, done that. Actually my favorite - and a crowd pleaser - was the full force "groin kick" (catching the kick with the hip adductor muscles). In the 1980s, I did several of these demonstrations at the halftime of UVa basketball games - one that happened to be broadcast on national television. It was a popular way at the time to wow large audiences and get recruits.
Some say it is ki that gives the person the power. That's what another martial artist told a crowd of people when he observed me doing the demonstrations.
The throat shots depend a lot on the anatomy of the individual, and to a certain extent on the ability to control the position and tone of the neck muscles. Like Conan O'Brian who jokes about it all the time, I have a big Irish head. I also have a big, thick neck that supports that Irish head. Bruce Siddle once tried to do the lateral neck restraint on me for demo purposes, and quit because he couldn't get my face to turn red. He settled on the pale-skinned Buzzy Durkin instead. I understand that Tomoyose Ryuko also used to do demos where he would have a student hit him in the neck.
The stomach thing is no big deal. Being fat helps; fat is nature's padding. Taiji is often practiced by folks later in life whose bodies can no longer take aerobic or high-impact activity. Aside from the layer of fat, proper muscle tone and a relaxed interior (letting the air escape out the throat) is the rest of it. The kicking shields are a great demo to how the air thing works with the air escape valve. And the proper tone of the stomach muscles helps to create an elastic (non-energy-absorbing) collision.
But if you want to spread the rumor that I have lots of qi, I'll complete the picture by growing a beard and sitting on a soft, silk pillow.
To others
Warning...author is stepping on to soap box
This is getting into a bit of a tired old argument. The truth of the matter is that there is no perfect weapon.
Folks often make arguments about a certain way of fighting being inferior, and then counter with hyperbolic descriptions (sledgehammer, Mack Truck, etc,) of their deadly methods. WHAT methods? What makes them infallible? What is the probability of success, and under what conditions? What are the vulnerabilities? Have they been field tested? Often? Were there witnesses? Was the opponent "worthy?" What happens when the person fights in another venue? Against more than one BG?
And how often is the average person going to face a 25-year-old, Thai Boxer, Western Boxer, Delta Force, BJJ, Man 'o Doom? And if such a person is so lethal, why aren't they training to be such a man-o-war?
Tom Crawford is a local, no-nonsense firearms instructor, expert marksman, and former law enforcement officer. One of Tom's hobbies is to sit in on the autopsy of a fallen bad guy. Tom will study what happened before the killing, and then actually look to see what happened inside. He related a story to me once of a shooting that blew out one of the ventricles of a crazed man's heart. That man continued to beat on the police officers - and inflict great damage - for another THIRTY seconds before falling. OK now - tell me that anyone here can hit someone so hard that they can blow the main pumping chamber out of a heart? And if that can't stop a Bad Guy like this, what are you going to do?
It's all a game of options, possibilities, probabilities, and consequences. I defy any individual to tell me they will respond perfectly when the s*** comes down.
Yes, I am capable of great force with an extreme implement in the force continuum. But the likelihood that I'll even threaten to use such a device in an effective behavior modification scenario is pretty insignificant.
Meanwhile, folks that fight (REAL fighting) professionally like bouncers and law enforcement officers must work with real rules of engagement. Excessive force is going to get one's fanny thrown in jail long before one gets a chance to get good at anything. And after being judged by 12, somebody's going to making time with their wife/girlfriend while they are somebody's b**** in jail. Talk about an ultimate pressure point attack...
Nothing's perfect. Nothing's certain. Nothing works in all venues. Everything's a game of chance, and different actions affect the probability of a good outcome. And there are many ways to define a good outcome. The mind is a greater tool in self-defense - in more ways than one - than many people realize or are willing to admit.
The biggest problem here now is that nobody here has yet to read the material. Nobody is even certain what "it" is yet. And when you do, you'll realize that you've been messing with "it" all along, whether you realize it or not. And to study "it" is to know it, understand it, and THEN judge what is of use.
Do not judge all of the pressure point business by what you see in demonstrations or by what claims are made by charlatans in the community. As Tracy aptly puts it, the whole body is a pressure point. Some are more efficient at using them than others.
Off of soap box.
Anyone interested in buying a few books, xeroxing a few articles in the peer-reviewed literature, and chatting for a bit? Doing so might take the "magic" out of all of this. That would be a good thing. It also might help us understand the dangers involved with certain individuals doing their own "magic shows" in this venue.
- Bill
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Ted Dinwiddie
- Posts: 537
- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Charlottesville,VA,USA
Michael Kelly's pressure point book
To all,
I also prefer the "sledgehammer" approach as a general rule. What if the "nut" turns out to be a rock?
If one has no idea of the adversary's capabilities or intentions and the threat is real, destroy them if possible.
It still comes down to having multiple tools that one can use skillfully for specific tasks. I am not very good, yet. My sledgehammer may get more use than it should. There may also come a day that I just cannot swing that thing the way I used to and I need better tactics for more precise tools to be effective.
While we consider tools, what if it's an oak tree and not a rock? The axe will work a darn site better than the sledgehammer. It can get stupid to pursue the analogy too far, but there is some substance here.
One of my instructors has a list of "rules" posted in his dojo.
The RULES OF REDNECK RYU
Rule #1: Very few problems cannot be resolved by the proper application of High Explosives.
This kind of fits into this discussion.
------------------
ted
"I learn by going where I have to go." - Theodore Roethke
I also prefer the "sledgehammer" approach as a general rule. What if the "nut" turns out to be a rock?
If one has no idea of the adversary's capabilities or intentions and the threat is real, destroy them if possible.
It still comes down to having multiple tools that one can use skillfully for specific tasks. I am not very good, yet. My sledgehammer may get more use than it should. There may also come a day that I just cannot swing that thing the way I used to and I need better tactics for more precise tools to be effective.
While we consider tools, what if it's an oak tree and not a rock? The axe will work a darn site better than the sledgehammer. It can get stupid to pursue the analogy too far, but there is some substance here.
One of my instructors has a list of "rules" posted in his dojo.
The RULES OF REDNECK RYU
Rule #1: Very few problems cannot be resolved by the proper application of High Explosives.
This kind of fits into this discussion.
------------------
ted
"I learn by going where I have to go." - Theodore Roethke
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RACastanet
- Posts: 3744
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA
Michael Kelly's pressure point book
Hello all. Bill G. sensei showed me the subject book today and I plan to get one as a reference document. I have been interested in pressure points since about '95 when Ron Klein sensei and Jim Maloney sensei demoed a few on me at camp. The following year I met Evan Pantazi at camp and he really showed me how to use them. This book has great cross references between science and the arts.
As for the sledgehammer approach, I've been training with the USMC-ryu group for the last 6 weeks or so and they make good use of these points. However, when grappling, the sledgehammer is not always available. Attacking these points from the mount or guard is done while somewhat tied up and motions must be kept small lest you expose your soft spots to your opponent. If done properly, it is possible to create an opening or wriggle room by attacking the opponents pressure points. I have been applying them more like using a pair of vice grips than a hammer, and in close quarters, that works just fine!
Rich
As for the sledgehammer approach, I've been training with the USMC-ryu group for the last 6 weeks or so and they make good use of these points. However, when grappling, the sledgehammer is not always available. Attacking these points from the mount or guard is done while somewhat tied up and motions must be kept small lest you expose your soft spots to your opponent. If done properly, it is possible to create an opening or wriggle room by attacking the opponents pressure points. I have been applying them more like using a pair of vice grips than a hammer, and in close quarters, that works just fine!
Rich
Michael Kelly's pressure point book
Dr Glasheen, I was happy to read your comments on my book. I agree with you on so many points.
I see your point about the use of a disclaimer but this was basic legal self-defense.
Although I am sure that Mr. Miller has a valid argument about the loss of consciousness associated with the pressure point strikes, I humbly disagree with the notion that it takes a certain amount of time for someone to faint from a vasovagal episode. I have personally seen people instantly lose consciousness during a vasovagal episode and have even seen people go into cardiac arrest. In addition, I consulted with a number of EPS specialists (cardiologists who perform electrophysiologic studies i.e. tilt table testing for vasovagal fainting)who all agreed that the loss of consciousness can be instantaneous.
In answer to the question of using a nutcracker vs a sledgehammer, once you can break a nut with a sledgehammer, why not try it with a nutcracker? I study the points and their effects simply because I enjoy it.
However, I agree that my book was not the place for such philosophical discussions.
I also agree with the need for references in martial art books. There are too many opinions and not enough facts.
I am very glad that you agreed with my statments about change in the martial arts.
Finally, I am honored that you liked the book. I respect your opinion both as a martial artist and as a medical professional.
I see your point about the use of a disclaimer but this was basic legal self-defense.
Although I am sure that Mr. Miller has a valid argument about the loss of consciousness associated with the pressure point strikes, I humbly disagree with the notion that it takes a certain amount of time for someone to faint from a vasovagal episode. I have personally seen people instantly lose consciousness during a vasovagal episode and have even seen people go into cardiac arrest. In addition, I consulted with a number of EPS specialists (cardiologists who perform electrophysiologic studies i.e. tilt table testing for vasovagal fainting)who all agreed that the loss of consciousness can be instantaneous.
In answer to the question of using a nutcracker vs a sledgehammer, once you can break a nut with a sledgehammer, why not try it with a nutcracker? I study the points and their effects simply because I enjoy it.
However, I agree that my book was not the place for such philosophical discussions.
I also agree with the need for references in martial art books. There are too many opinions and not enough facts.
I am very glad that you agreed with my statments about change in the martial arts.
Finally, I am honored that you liked the book. I respect your opinion both as a martial artist and as a medical professional.
Michael Kelly's pressure point book
The next question is, would you invest in a company that 1) claimed an incredible record of success using proven methods of investing that would guarantee you a 300% return on your money and 2) claimed in all seriousness that when you tickle the umbilicus of alien from pluto (which is made of green cheese), it turns orange and passes out?
I ask because I have a few books on this subject and some, in my collection notably Montaigue's "The Encyclopendia of Dim Mak" and Yang Jwing-Ming's "Shaolin Chin-Na," are full or earnest guarantees that you can KO someone with just about every point and that they all work together in a complicated web of rules and exceptions, alongside of a series of claims that are obviously unprovable or completely outlandish.
I opened my encyclopedia at random and found the following on the two open pages: striking heart 4-6 on the wrist immediately causes "high blood pressure" and "madness," and can "bring fire down from the head," but can reverse "sudden hoarseness," "uterine bleeding," and "throat blockage." Hmmm.
On the second pass, I happened to open near lung 7-8, where I learned a good wallop will make you have "artificial grief with much sobbing" and make it harder and harder to learn "physical things," which has got to be pretty tough when your bladder is "qi deficient" from being at the opposite side of "the horary cycle," and you're insomniac between 3 and 5 am and urinating a lot.
Can people teach this stool in presentations with a straight face? Come on folks. The Sifu is wearing no clothes. This is obvious, right? I feel like I'm reading from a work of pure fiction, a dungeon master's guide for the self-impressed martial artist.
I have a copy of the Merck Manual (a medical guide) from 1899 that came with by 1999 edition. The big lesson: the less that is known about a condition the more elaborate nonsense is written about it and the more potential therapies are suggested. This is quickly apparent reading today's literature as well.
This ought to be concerning given that the meridian theory stuff has been around for thousands of years and still makes no sense. Western physics, on the other hand, has been making continual rapid progress over the last couple hundred years. It IS true that western medicine focuses in on what it can see in a microscope or measure in precise ways (just as western physics misses art), and therefore leaves much of the truly important emotional / subjective /holistic elements of health out of its range.
On the other hand, I'm sure adherents to the Baloney Systems really do feel better after they've balanced out their chi, but, I don't see why a healthful approach to life has to be couched in such absurd terms that it's clearly a placebo effect. If you can make people feel better, don't talk about it in Klingon or people will just look at you funny. Except for the those who are up to buying the vulcan ears and fitting in with you.
And I've got better things to spend my money on these days, and will be balancing my chi in less creative ways.
Which brings me to my question, does this book have any information in it that is useful in accomplishing an end--making pressure points work in the world? I can write vitriolic emails without buying it :0)
I ask because I have a few books on this subject and some, in my collection notably Montaigue's "The Encyclopendia of Dim Mak" and Yang Jwing-Ming's "Shaolin Chin-Na," are full or earnest guarantees that you can KO someone with just about every point and that they all work together in a complicated web of rules and exceptions, alongside of a series of claims that are obviously unprovable or completely outlandish.
I opened my encyclopedia at random and found the following on the two open pages: striking heart 4-6 on the wrist immediately causes "high blood pressure" and "madness," and can "bring fire down from the head," but can reverse "sudden hoarseness," "uterine bleeding," and "throat blockage." Hmmm.
On the second pass, I happened to open near lung 7-8, where I learned a good wallop will make you have "artificial grief with much sobbing" and make it harder and harder to learn "physical things," which has got to be pretty tough when your bladder is "qi deficient" from being at the opposite side of "the horary cycle," and you're insomniac between 3 and 5 am and urinating a lot.
Can people teach this stool in presentations with a straight face? Come on folks. The Sifu is wearing no clothes. This is obvious, right? I feel like I'm reading from a work of pure fiction, a dungeon master's guide for the self-impressed martial artist.
I have a copy of the Merck Manual (a medical guide) from 1899 that came with by 1999 edition. The big lesson: the less that is known about a condition the more elaborate nonsense is written about it and the more potential therapies are suggested. This is quickly apparent reading today's literature as well.
This ought to be concerning given that the meridian theory stuff has been around for thousands of years and still makes no sense. Western physics, on the other hand, has been making continual rapid progress over the last couple hundred years. It IS true that western medicine focuses in on what it can see in a microscope or measure in precise ways (just as western physics misses art), and therefore leaves much of the truly important emotional / subjective /holistic elements of health out of its range.
On the other hand, I'm sure adherents to the Baloney Systems really do feel better after they've balanced out their chi, but, I don't see why a healthful approach to life has to be couched in such absurd terms that it's clearly a placebo effect. If you can make people feel better, don't talk about it in Klingon or people will just look at you funny. Except for the those who are up to buying the vulcan ears and fitting in with you.
And I've got better things to spend my money on these days, and will be balancing my chi in less creative ways.
Which brings me to my question, does this book have any information in it that is useful in accomplishing an end--making pressure points work in the world? I can write vitriolic emails without buying it :0)
-
jorvik
Michael Kelly's pressure point book
quote
"--making pressure points work in the world? I can write vitriolic emails without buying it :0)"
Nice one, ian, so can i,but i think youve expressed what many people think and expressed it very well. there is a whole library of martial art garbage floating around, ive bought quite a few of the books myself, and i now feel that my library is complete.
this book may be very cheap, excellently written, understandable but in this instance i think that i ll let it pass.perhaps my opinion of such things has, like yours, been soured my mr. motaigue and dr.yang.
( p.s. if you want the delayed death touch, you have to hit poboiler17,lung 24 and buttwarmer5 at 6am. Greenwich meantime)
"--making pressure points work in the world? I can write vitriolic emails without buying it :0)"
Nice one, ian, so can i,but i think youve expressed what many people think and expressed it very well. there is a whole library of martial art garbage floating around, ive bought quite a few of the books myself, and i now feel that my library is complete.
this book may be very cheap, excellently written, understandable but in this instance i think that i ll let it pass.perhaps my opinion of such things has, like yours, been soured my mr. motaigue and dr.yang.
( p.s. if you want the delayed death touch, you have to hit poboiler17,lung 24 and buttwarmer5 at 6am. Greenwich meantime)
Michael Kelly's pressure point book
Ian,
You raise some very good points. I agree that too much nonsense has been written about the martial arts.
Your statement about how someone can faint from a needle stick because they have been "primed" is a valid point indeed. I address this issue in the book, but I will address it here again. One part of the brain that is involved with vasovagal syncope events is the nucleous tractus solitarii. Overstimulation of this area can cause a vasovagal faint instantly. Interestingly, this area is also connected to the cerebral cortex.(the conscious thought area of the brain) Thus, conscious thought can affect the nucleous tractus solitarii, and this can absolutely "prime" someone to passout. Conversely, this also explains how someone can prevent themselves from passing out. (iron shirt training without chi?)
However, people can pass out even when they do not know they are going to be stuck with a needle and many of the "pressure point knockouts" seem to involve an element of surprise. I do see your point though.
I really wonder how much the cerebral cortex is involved during some of the "no touch knockouts."
You raise some very good points. I agree that too much nonsense has been written about the martial arts.
Your statement about how someone can faint from a needle stick because they have been "primed" is a valid point indeed. I address this issue in the book, but I will address it here again. One part of the brain that is involved with vasovagal syncope events is the nucleous tractus solitarii. Overstimulation of this area can cause a vasovagal faint instantly. Interestingly, this area is also connected to the cerebral cortex.(the conscious thought area of the brain) Thus, conscious thought can affect the nucleous tractus solitarii, and this can absolutely "prime" someone to passout. Conversely, this also explains how someone can prevent themselves from passing out. (iron shirt training without chi?)
However, people can pass out even when they do not know they are going to be stuck with a needle and many of the "pressure point knockouts" seem to involve an element of surprise. I do see your point though.
I really wonder how much the cerebral cortex is involved during some of the "no touch knockouts."
Michael Kelly's pressure point book
I think the big question regarding the question of time lapse after an a vasovagal event is triggered and before loss of consciousness is, especially for those who've seen a bunch (the aforementioned electrophysiologists):
Was the loss of consciousness instantaneous, meaning the person went from awake to out instantly, or instantaneous, meaning the person went out instantly the instant the event was triggered?
In the former, monitoring could show that after the person vagaled, the heart rate and blood pressure dropped for a period of time, and THEN the person suddenly lost consciousness. In the latter, monitoring would show that the trigger resulted in simultaneous loss of consciousness and pressure / pulse changes.
In other words, just because people go out suddenly from a vasovagal, it does not mean that triggering a presure point will knock them out instantly. Afterall, some of those people who go out suddenly have been PRIMED.
People who faint after getting needled don't faint when you pinch them (hurts as much). I haven't tried but i doubt they'd faint if they got stuck when they weren't expecting it or when the arm was anesthetized and they didn't know it was being stuck. In other words their knowledge of the blood draw and not the needle itself is KO'ing them, and while they go out suddenly they have been exposed to that knowledge BEFORE they go out suddenly (and maybe the final stick tips them over).
This priming is why Sensei Mattson feels he wouldn't be a good subject for kyusho because he feels woozy before getting hit in a way he wouldn't in an attack situation.
For the jostled-RAS theorists, if we are going to chalk up some relatively light force KOs to shaking the brain stem, why don't people go out from more jostling events? Can we get Tyson in here and find out if a tap can succeed where it took Lewis a bunch of rounds and a series of pounding strikes? I'd be hard to convince it was an RAS thing without some further theorizing if that were the case.
[This message has been edited by Ian (edited June 09, 2002).]
Was the loss of consciousness instantaneous, meaning the person went from awake to out instantly, or instantaneous, meaning the person went out instantly the instant the event was triggered?
In the former, monitoring could show that after the person vagaled, the heart rate and blood pressure dropped for a period of time, and THEN the person suddenly lost consciousness. In the latter, monitoring would show that the trigger resulted in simultaneous loss of consciousness and pressure / pulse changes.
In other words, just because people go out suddenly from a vasovagal, it does not mean that triggering a presure point will knock them out instantly. Afterall, some of those people who go out suddenly have been PRIMED.
People who faint after getting needled don't faint when you pinch them (hurts as much). I haven't tried but i doubt they'd faint if they got stuck when they weren't expecting it or when the arm was anesthetized and they didn't know it was being stuck. In other words their knowledge of the blood draw and not the needle itself is KO'ing them, and while they go out suddenly they have been exposed to that knowledge BEFORE they go out suddenly (and maybe the final stick tips them over).
This priming is why Sensei Mattson feels he wouldn't be a good subject for kyusho because he feels woozy before getting hit in a way he wouldn't in an attack situation.
For the jostled-RAS theorists, if we are going to chalk up some relatively light force KOs to shaking the brain stem, why don't people go out from more jostling events? Can we get Tyson in here and find out if a tap can succeed where it took Lewis a bunch of rounds and a series of pounding strikes? I'd be hard to convince it was an RAS thing without some further theorizing if that were the case.
[This message has been edited by Ian (edited June 09, 2002).]
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Michael Kelly's pressure point book
By the way, some of you folks may recognize the process here. Ever wonder what makes people like George and Van and Art and Jimmy tick? We cannot assume all from the past is what people say it is. Martial arts is work in progress. Ultimately we all must make our individual marks. We must take what was handed to us, make sense of it, and - if appropriate - make it better.
- Bill
- Bill
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Michael Kelly's pressure point book
Ian
One of the reasons I've enjoyed working with you all these years is your ability to entertain.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
The direct goal of the book is to apply medical explanations to observed phenomena. The long-term goal is potentially much more ambitious.
The author starts with "Neurophysiology for Dummies." Then he takes some of the pressure point anatomic charts, and cross references them to specific nerves at those locations. He creates a definition of a medical knockout. He attempts to give neuroscience explanations for why specific points on the acupuncture chart may be associated with specific organs. He talks through some practical examples about how targeted and sequential striking can create various effects. He gives some examples of how "delayed death touch" might work. Some of the statements in the book are backed up with peer-reviewed articles in the medical literature.
There are a number of things to consider here.
* SOME kata in our midst were likely created with a different physiologic paradigm in mind. SOME kata in our midst were likely created from practical field experience. SOME kata may have drawn from both.
* If I do a shomen zuki to the crown of the head, I will break my fist. If I do a shomen geri to the testicles, the opponent will be unhappy (and maybe more). Clearly where and how you strike matters. How far can we go with this? How precisely and powerfully do I need to attack what area of the body to achieve the end I want?
* Folks from the past with chi-on-the-brain attempted to answer the above question. Folks from the past with practical field experience attempted to answer the question. A collection of this stuff is in The Bubishi. It is an important document in the martial history.
* What next? Given what we know now (which is much more than we knew 100 years ago or more) about the human body, what can we say about targeted striking, and kata that preserved that know-how? Are the vulnerable points really the size of a dime? A quarter? A strip of tissue here and a patch there and a big ball up there and a couple of balls dangling down there? Does it help to hit one area before you go for the home run? Should we block to block, or block to attack? If the latter, then how? Is there such a practical thing as "martial foreplay?"
* Given what we find out, how useful are the kata of (pick your system) ryu? Do they need modifications? Are they right on? Should we throw them out completely?
That's the big picture.
This book is one step in the big picture.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Ian and MK
The needle stick thing perhaps gets to what I'm talking about. I stand by my statement that a PURE vasovagal response takes time.
We engineers quantify response to a stimulus with a quantity called a time constant. That time constant is reflective of the system involved. The time constant for bringing a room up to temperature when I turn the heat on is much different (longer) than the time constant for illuminating a room when I turn on a light switch. When you think about the physical phenomena involved, it makes COMMON sense as well as engineering sense. My premise is that changing brain tissue O2 concentration by changing blood flow to the brain by altering the status of the autonomic nervous system takes seconds to tens of seconds. Indeed many KOs take that long. So...given that, what does it say about a "KO" that happens almost instantaneously? In my mind, it says that yes, a purely blood flow thing may be going on, but there's something else happening too. I believe the two of you are touching on that.
And the no touch knockout is MOST PROBABLY of cerebral cortex origin. Nobody's "qi" is that good.
To all
And all this is reason why people need to look at this. Don't dismiss it and allow the magic show folks to embarrass the art. Don't dismiss it and miss out on a few morsels of useful information within all the chafe. And don't dismiss an opportunity to - heaven forbid - learn something.
How do I know any of this might be useful? I'm a professional researcher. I get paid to see patterns in the tea leaves. I get paid to see and communicate the possibilities. If it's already obvious, then it's someone else's problem.
- Bill
One of the reasons I've enjoyed working with you all these years is your ability to entertain.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
A BIG maybe.does this book have any information in it that is useful in accomplishing an end--making pressure points work in the world?
The direct goal of the book is to apply medical explanations to observed phenomena. The long-term goal is potentially much more ambitious.
The author starts with "Neurophysiology for Dummies." Then he takes some of the pressure point anatomic charts, and cross references them to specific nerves at those locations. He creates a definition of a medical knockout. He attempts to give neuroscience explanations for why specific points on the acupuncture chart may be associated with specific organs. He talks through some practical examples about how targeted and sequential striking can create various effects. He gives some examples of how "delayed death touch" might work. Some of the statements in the book are backed up with peer-reviewed articles in the medical literature.
There are a number of things to consider here.
* SOME kata in our midst were likely created with a different physiologic paradigm in mind. SOME kata in our midst were likely created from practical field experience. SOME kata may have drawn from both.
* If I do a shomen zuki to the crown of the head, I will break my fist. If I do a shomen geri to the testicles, the opponent will be unhappy (and maybe more). Clearly where and how you strike matters. How far can we go with this? How precisely and powerfully do I need to attack what area of the body to achieve the end I want?
* Folks from the past with chi-on-the-brain attempted to answer the above question. Folks from the past with practical field experience attempted to answer the question. A collection of this stuff is in The Bubishi. It is an important document in the martial history.
* What next? Given what we know now (which is much more than we knew 100 years ago or more) about the human body, what can we say about targeted striking, and kata that preserved that know-how? Are the vulnerable points really the size of a dime? A quarter? A strip of tissue here and a patch there and a big ball up there and a couple of balls dangling down there? Does it help to hit one area before you go for the home run? Should we block to block, or block to attack? If the latter, then how? Is there such a practical thing as "martial foreplay?"
* Given what we find out, how useful are the kata of (pick your system) ryu? Do they need modifications? Are they right on? Should we throw them out completely?
That's the big picture.
This book is one step in the big picture.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Ultimately the practitioner - and not a book - must make targeted striking work in the real world. How (s)he does that is a matter of personal choice. Informed choice would be nice, no?does this book have any information in it that is useful in accomplishing an end--making pressure points work in the world?
Ian and MK
The needle stick thing perhaps gets to what I'm talking about. I stand by my statement that a PURE vasovagal response takes time.
We engineers quantify response to a stimulus with a quantity called a time constant. That time constant is reflective of the system involved. The time constant for bringing a room up to temperature when I turn the heat on is much different (longer) than the time constant for illuminating a room when I turn on a light switch. When you think about the physical phenomena involved, it makes COMMON sense as well as engineering sense. My premise is that changing brain tissue O2 concentration by changing blood flow to the brain by altering the status of the autonomic nervous system takes seconds to tens of seconds. Indeed many KOs take that long. So...given that, what does it say about a "KO" that happens almost instantaneously? In my mind, it says that yes, a purely blood flow thing may be going on, but there's something else happening too. I believe the two of you are touching on that.
And the no touch knockout is MOST PROBABLY of cerebral cortex origin. Nobody's "qi" is that good.
To all
And all this is reason why people need to look at this. Don't dismiss it and allow the magic show folks to embarrass the art. Don't dismiss it and miss out on a few morsels of useful information within all the chafe. And don't dismiss an opportunity to - heaven forbid - learn something.
How do I know any of this might be useful? I'm a professional researcher. I get paid to see patterns in the tea leaves. I get paid to see and communicate the possibilities. If it's already obvious, then it's someone else's problem.
- Bill
-
Evan Pantazi
- Posts: 1897
- Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: N. Andover, Ma. USA
- Contact:
Michael Kelly's pressure point book
As I sit waiting for my luggage to follow me home from Iceland I took a brief review of this topic as well as the pressure point thread.
Dr. Kelly
I hopefully will be ordering your book today. And look forward to stepping into what promisses to be "one of those Discussions".
There were so many points (pardon the pun) raised that again I will address when time permits and hopefully after the reciept of this book.
I will say that I was able to meet and share ideas and stories with members of the Swedish and Finnish Police, as well as many with real life stories that have used these points, some daily, with predictable and real result.
------------------
Evan Pantazi
www.kyusho.com
Dr. Kelly
I hopefully will be ordering your book today. And look forward to stepping into what promisses to be "one of those Discussions".
There were so many points (pardon the pun) raised that again I will address when time permits and hopefully after the reciept of this book.
I will say that I was able to meet and share ideas and stories with members of the Swedish and Finnish Police, as well as many with real life stories that have used these points, some daily, with predictable and real result.
------------------
Evan Pantazi
www.kyusho.com
Michael Kelly's pressure point book
Sensei Pantazi,
I agree that this is becoming one of those discussions. I worked as a state police officer before attending medical school and have had my own experiences with the use of the points. I agree with you that the points have very real and predictable results. They saved my life during a struggle with an armed suspect. I look forward to your comments.
I agree that this is becoming one of those discussions. I worked as a state police officer before attending medical school and have had my own experiences with the use of the points. I agree with you that the points have very real and predictable results. They saved my life during a struggle with an armed suspect. I look forward to your comments.
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Michael Kelly's pressure point book
There's something else here on my mind that I've failed to mention, but certainly is relevant here.
From a practical standpoint, we must be concerned with two extremes. The first extreme is failure to subdue the bad guy. The second extreme is hurting the bad guy more than we intended. Does this matter? The law enforcement personnel, bouncers, and everyday civilians among us care (or BETTER care).
In the mid-eighties, I met Bruce Siddle at one of George Mattson's camps. At the time, I was finishing my Ph.D., and transitioning from a research instructor to assistant professor in the division of cardiology at UVa. Bruce presented me with a "problem" of the law enforcement community. Apparently there were cases (anecdotes) where apparently well-intentioned police officers were working to subdue a bad guy, and did so after some struggle. Some of Bruce's stories were entertaining, to say the least. In any event, the handcuffed individual apparently died of a heart attack on the way to the police station.
Yes, it is possible that some percentage of these cases were "vigilante justice." You know...the person "slipped" on the way to the police car and got ten nasty bruises on his head. But Bruce - a law enforcement expert and professional consultant - was beginning to collect quite a few of these anecdotes of "sudden death." He was desperate to find an academic explanation that might help innocent police officers avoid unnecessary prosecution and civil litigation. He and the general public were also interested in what might be causing this. The "scapegoat" was sometimes a useful technique in a policeman's force continuum - the lateral vascular neck restraint (blood choke). So in some extreme cases, it was mandated that policemen couldn't use techniques like this to restrain extremely belligerent subject. Best to resort to the 9mm, right? Yea, that'll save a few lives...
Bruce wanted help from me. Bruce wanted an "expert witness" for cases against some police officers that he thought were legitimately innocent. He also was concerned about the volatility of the communities where individuals from disenfranchised socioeconomic classes died in captivity. Nobody wants a "post Rodney King" incident in their community.
Frankly at the time, the information wasn't out there. Now as I read some of the references in Michael Kelly's book, I see that things have changed.
We really should care. More of these things COULD happen in any sports venue, dojo, and law enforcement community. When it comes to risk and risk management, we need to understand the possibilities as well as the probabilities.
While Dr. Kelly isn't the least bit quantitative in this regard, he does bring many important issues to the table that - as I discovered - have sources in the literature since Bruce Siddle first approached me with "the problem." It also brings an important tone of caution to any that would "experiment" with this stuff in the dojo.
- Bill
From a practical standpoint, we must be concerned with two extremes. The first extreme is failure to subdue the bad guy. The second extreme is hurting the bad guy more than we intended. Does this matter? The law enforcement personnel, bouncers, and everyday civilians among us care (or BETTER care).
In the mid-eighties, I met Bruce Siddle at one of George Mattson's camps. At the time, I was finishing my Ph.D., and transitioning from a research instructor to assistant professor in the division of cardiology at UVa. Bruce presented me with a "problem" of the law enforcement community. Apparently there were cases (anecdotes) where apparently well-intentioned police officers were working to subdue a bad guy, and did so after some struggle. Some of Bruce's stories were entertaining, to say the least. In any event, the handcuffed individual apparently died of a heart attack on the way to the police station.
Yes, it is possible that some percentage of these cases were "vigilante justice." You know...the person "slipped" on the way to the police car and got ten nasty bruises on his head.
But Bruce - a law enforcement expert and professional consultant - was beginning to collect quite a few of these anecdotes of "sudden death." He was desperate to find an academic explanation that might help innocent police officers avoid unnecessary prosecution and civil litigation. He and the general public were also interested in what might be causing this. The "scapegoat" was sometimes a useful technique in a policeman's force continuum - the lateral vascular neck restraint (blood choke). So in some extreme cases, it was mandated that policemen couldn't use techniques like this to restrain extremely belligerent subject. Best to resort to the 9mm, right? Yea, that'll save a few lives...Bruce wanted help from me. Bruce wanted an "expert witness" for cases against some police officers that he thought were legitimately innocent. He also was concerned about the volatility of the communities where individuals from disenfranchised socioeconomic classes died in captivity. Nobody wants a "post Rodney King" incident in their community.
Frankly at the time, the information wasn't out there. Now as I read some of the references in Michael Kelly's book, I see that things have changed.
We really should care. More of these things COULD happen in any sports venue, dojo, and law enforcement community. When it comes to risk and risk management, we need to understand the possibilities as well as the probabilities.
While Dr. Kelly isn't the least bit quantitative in this regard, he does bring many important issues to the table that - as I discovered - have sources in the literature since Bruce Siddle first approached me with "the problem." It also brings an important tone of caution to any that would "experiment" with this stuff in the dojo.
- Bill
Michael Kelly's pressure point book
Bill,
Not being intimately familiar with any of those cases, I wonder if blood tests of the 'victims' were conducted. This would be a separate thread on its own in the "Public Issues Involving Law Enforcement" forum.
There certainly is a question of reasonable force, but can we really parse all possible actions to determine what is or isn't lethal force? More importantly, can self-defense be subjected to such examination? When someone starts attacking, do people have KNOW whether the intention is murder? Things especially begin to blur when verbal threats accompany threatening action. Hesitation vs. immediate action could be all that stands in the way of the victim staying alive, as opposed to becoming just another statistic. Even if the attacker(s) has the intention of 'only' assaulting the victim, who is to say that there is a change of intention if the victim resists? Are victims simply supposed to 'lie back and enjoy it', permitting themselves to be attacked until intentions are KNOWN? How in the world are people supposed know the person's intentions in the first place? It may sound 'reasonable' to some uninformed twit to simply 'fend' off attacks using non-lethal force, but could such a person have a clue as to what would work on any particular individual?
"Oops! My non-lethal stun gun/chemical spray/pressure point didn't do anything to help and now I'm really in trouble."
Vigilantism is generally understood as actions taken outside the accomodations of the legal system, but when people have the right to bear lethal weapons, does it not follow that they have the right to use them in order to preserve their own lives against illegal attacks? Self-defense can never, by principle, be vigilantism if such is the case. Self-defense is only viable if people have the right to use 'lethal' force against attackers of unknown motive in a reasonable manner. If person chooses use it the form of a hand, foot, elbow, knee, blade, baton, or bullet, is up to them, subject to licensing and such. In all honesty, when faced with a situation of unknown factors, does anyone really care about the attacker's health during the assault?
Now, if some choose to use lethal force after the cessation of violence, then it might well be vigilantism, but the prior actions of self-defense are not.
The situation faced by LEOs (especially them) and 'personal and property protection specialists' are very different from that "Joe Smith".
[This message has been edited by Sheol (edited June 11, 2002).]
Not being intimately familiar with any of those cases, I wonder if blood tests of the 'victims' were conducted. This would be a separate thread on its own in the "Public Issues Involving Law Enforcement" forum.
There certainly is a question of reasonable force, but can we really parse all possible actions to determine what is or isn't lethal force? More importantly, can self-defense be subjected to such examination? When someone starts attacking, do people have KNOW whether the intention is murder? Things especially begin to blur when verbal threats accompany threatening action. Hesitation vs. immediate action could be all that stands in the way of the victim staying alive, as opposed to becoming just another statistic. Even if the attacker(s) has the intention of 'only' assaulting the victim, who is to say that there is a change of intention if the victim resists? Are victims simply supposed to 'lie back and enjoy it', permitting themselves to be attacked until intentions are KNOWN? How in the world are people supposed know the person's intentions in the first place? It may sound 'reasonable' to some uninformed twit to simply 'fend' off attacks using non-lethal force, but could such a person have a clue as to what would work on any particular individual?
"Oops! My non-lethal stun gun/chemical spray/pressure point didn't do anything to help and now I'm really in trouble."
Vigilantism is generally understood as actions taken outside the accomodations of the legal system, but when people have the right to bear lethal weapons, does it not follow that they have the right to use them in order to preserve their own lives against illegal attacks? Self-defense can never, by principle, be vigilantism if such is the case. Self-defense is only viable if people have the right to use 'lethal' force against attackers of unknown motive in a reasonable manner. If person chooses use it the form of a hand, foot, elbow, knee, blade, baton, or bullet, is up to them, subject to licensing and such. In all honesty, when faced with a situation of unknown factors, does anyone really care about the attacker's health during the assault?
Now, if some choose to use lethal force after the cessation of violence, then it might well be vigilantism, but the prior actions of self-defense are not.
The situation faced by LEOs (especially them) and 'personal and property protection specialists' are very different from that "Joe Smith".
[This message has been edited by Sheol (edited June 11, 2002).]
