Michael Kelly's pressure point book

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Bill Glasheen
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Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Sheol

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
when you have so many private citizens, 'protection' professionals, law enforcement personnel, and combat soldiers testifying that traditional martial arts do not work.
Perhaps you haven't been following the posts about "Marine Corp Ryu." One of my students is going through their combat training, and it is VERY heavily drawn from traditional martial artists. In addition, one of our own among us - Joe Pomfret - is both a successful NHB fighter and Marine Corp instructor.

Nothing works perfectly. I can give algebra lessons to a random 100 in the population, and only a fraction of them will be competent at it in a year. However that doesn't negate the value of the training. The individual comes into play much more than people give credit for.

- Bill
jorvik

Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by jorvik »

quote
"There is no one method that will make someone invincible. That is why character development is probably the most important aspect of martial arts training."

i quite agree with you, doctor.I view my own training as a holistic practice, which promotes physical fitness, mental calm and to some extent self defence- although, i think to most of us, the self defence is more on a mental level,( anger management, stress release, that sort of thing.)
i would also not rule out self knowledge, or spirituality.which is what i think, you are about?
have you ever come across an old ryu that deals exclusively with pressure points?
I think aiki-jutsu would offer particularly
fertile ground for your researches.

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Ian
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Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by Ian »

One caution with evaluating pressure points is of going in with an opnion about the results before the data is collected.

For example, while the cases of MA's having a stroke after choke etc are important if rare phenomena, it's hard to be sure if a stroke was caused 10 yrs after the fact by some injury. People who have problems naturally think about why, and those who remember a probably unrelated injury from the past are likely to make a connection whereas people with no such injury are much less likely to conclude there's no connection. Humans tend to notice more compelling data or data that supports their assumptions than data the suggests no vale to their theories.

Re: epidural hematomas, it would be hard to get a hematoma without having a point nearby because the head is covered with points. Your average hematoma (esp if fatal) is likely to cover several. What does that tell us?

Even if there were a sharp correlation between points of locations of hematomas, what we'd know then is that the points where bleeds were more likely have been named. Ok, so we've named the spots where such bleeding occurs. Does this get us closer to an understanding? Does any understanding move us toward an application, either martial or medical, regarding such hematomas?

I'm not sure it does.

I met someone once who was convinced nutrasweet was dangerous because he knew someone that died just after opening a can of diet soda under their nose. And.... that person would have died without the can of coke, and we wouldn't have felt reassured about nutrasweet if it had been absent.

We SHOULD be collecting medical anecdotes about our MA's because we need to define the risks and further our understanding of how they work. But we've got to make sure our feelings about pressure points (this applies to believers and skeptics) doesn't mold the outcome of the research.
M. Kelly
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Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by M. Kelly »

Ian,
I was specifically referring to traumatic subarachnoid hemorrhages. NOT epidural hematomas. There is a big difference between the two. So if you are going to respond to my statement, please do so in regards to traumatic subarachnoid hemorrhages.

Interestingly, forensic pathologists will look for the bruise I was referring to when performing an autopsy on a fatal assault case. In addition, traumatic subarachnoid hemorrhages are actually quite common in assault cases. This is especially true when alcohol is involved. Just look in the literature at the number of case reports and studies involving this injury.
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Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by M. Kelly »

As for the cases of stroke secondary to carotid artery trauma, there are countless articles discussing how the stroke is usually delayed. Although I do agree that 10 years later seems hard to believe, there are many documented cases of delayed neurological symptoms following blunt trauma to the carotid artery. In one particular case, the stroke was actually caused by a karate punch during a class. Here are just a few refences.

Li MD, Smith MD, Espinosa MD, Brown MD, Richardson MD, and Ford MD, Nonpenetrating Trauma to the Carotid Artery: Seven Cases and a Literature Review, The Journal of Trauma, February 1994. 36(2): 267

Shima, Nishida, Yamane, and Kagawa, Traumatic Dissection of the Common Carotid Artery after Blunt Injury to the Neck, Surgical Neurology, May 1999, 51(5): 519-520

Pozzati, Giuliani, Poppi, and Faenza, Blunt Traumatic Carotid Dissection with Delayed Symptoms, Stroke, March 1989, 20(3): 412-416

Blumenthal DT. Riggs JE. and Ortez O., Carotid Artery Occlusion Following a Karate Punch to the Neck, Military Medicine, Sept. 1996 161(9): 562-563
jorvik

Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by jorvik »

I am still very unsure just what people mean by a pressure point.there does seem a tendecy to attack the side of the neck, even when people say they can achieve a knockout by attacking an unlikely area, such as the leg,this is still done while attacking the neck at the same time ( i assume this is the carotid synus?)other places seem less well targeted.
In uechi ryu there is the common attack of chop to the side of the neck,backfist to face, one knuckle punch to the nipple,or just above. now that does seem to me, to be a pressure point attack? mr Mattson has already stated that uechi ryu contains a lot of pressure point fighting.I say that for 2 reasons. Sheol, has already said that he doesnt like to sift through the martial arts to find the good bits, i totally agree. it would seem that in the past some people already were sifting (i.e. uechi) and also, are we already covering old ground, but in a different format?
has anyone studied boxing/boxers? is a blow to the chin a pressure point, I know that when hit hard a boxers brain is supposed to make contact with the inside of his skull causing loss of consciousness, but is this the only process involved? or all that can occur?
mr Glasheen, on another thread you commented on conditioning ( very well i thought).
i have heard that boxers who become "punchy" have over ridden their brains command to be knocked out( by taking consistent beatings) and are much more likely to die from a punch, care to comment?
also, uechi urban legend, kanei uechi refused to teach for many years because one of his pupils killed a farmer in a fight.How? pressure point?
Ian
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Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by Ian »

Few intracranial bleeding basics:

The skull obvioulsy has a fixed volume, which becomes a major cause of problems in the case of a bleed because three things compete for that space: the brain, CSF (fluid that bathes the brain) and blood. If blood is pouring in, after CSF is squeezed out the pressure has to rise, and eventually no blood in vessels can enter, and you're toast.

moving in you encounter the dura mater (tough mother) one of three layers of tissue that cover the brain. It's stuck to the skull, but there are blood vessels between the two. If they bleed high pressure blood can dissect the dura off the skull. Epidural bleeds in this fashion might explain a delayed death touch. A strike ruptures an artery, like the middle meningeal, running underneath the temple, and also KO's the person. They wake from a KO but as the hematoma grows they later loose consciousness and die.

Under the dura is the arachnoid mater, and there are veins running here that can be jostled and ruptured. The blood accumulates between the two layers and is called a subdural. They can look like anything from a serious sudden bleed to a subtle change in an elderly person. Under the arachnoid is the CSF and the brain floating in it. The last of the three layers or meninges is the pia mater, which is very thin and stuck to the brain surface. Over the brain surface run more blood vessels and if these break a subarachnoid hemorrhage occurs. Bleeding doesn't form a collection like in the above cases, it pours into the CSF and can be seen in a spinal tap from the low back, since the CSF circulates and is continuous.

Usual causes of subarachnoid bleeds are balloon like dilations on the arteries (congenital and from smoking) that can pop, and tangles of blood vessels called AVMs. They can be messy because the blood irriates the vessels on the surface of the brain, and the resulting vasoconstriction can cause ongoing brain injury. Traumatic bleeds are (as traditionally taught) more commonly epi and subdural.

There are also bleeds in the brain substance, and these can break through to the surface sometimes.

----

Dr. K, I guess the bruise you're talking about is on the scalp? How big were these bruises? How was it determined that they matched the accupuncture charts? Has anyone not familiar with pressure points been asked to chart their locations and frequency, with comparison afterwards to the charts? What's the source of the bleeding, and is there a pattern to which vessels are involved? You say, "quite common;" can you say what percentage of assaults have these injuries? Why is the traditional teaching that subdurals and epidurals are more common?

Do you think that stroke (and delayed stroke) are the reasons the carotid lies under some pressure points? In other words, the Chinese noticed the connection between injury there and stroke (given the relative scarcity of these case reports)? Is there some other reason the points appear in health applications where the stroke mechanics wouldn't play a role? Do pressure points appear over arteries more frequently than one would expect by chance?
Ted Dinwiddie
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Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by Ted Dinwiddie »

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Dr. Kelly wrote:

I read in the Bubishi that the author (P McCarthy) witnessed an old master striking pressure points on a horse. I have also read about this practice elsewhere but I just can't seem to recollect exactly where. So it seems that this is, in fact, an old practice.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know that Dr. Felix Mann (Felix Mann, MB, for those who care) wrote several books on acupuncture. One, in particular, *Acupuncture, the Ancient Chinese Art of Healing and How it Works Scientifically* he refers to dogs alot FWIW.



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ted

"I learn by going where I have to go." - Theodore Roethke
Ian
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Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by Ian »

"I am still very unsure just what people mean by a pressure point."

Usually they mean one of the named points of old, found on various meridians. Rarely you hear people talking about the obvious pressure points, that are sensitive areas without the mystique of being alittle mysterious. The obvious pressure points include the eyes, testicles, sensitive areas of skin like inner thigh, under armpits--and other places like the throat, although the conception meridian runs down that.

"even when people say they can achieve a knockout by attacking an unlikely area, such as the leg,this is still done while attacking the neck at the same time ( i assume this is the carotid synus?)other places seem less well targeted."

There is quite a concentration of pressure points on the head and neck and while you'll see books like Dillman's talk about the primacy of kyusho rules, most of their applications at the end of the book center around a few points, most on the head and neck. People looking for a western / rational explanation might blame jarring of the brain and RAS, possibly increased sensitivity of nerves in the area, or vagal stimulation for this.

"In uechi ryu there is..., backfist to face"

The face is a big thing. Hitting the chin or forehead with your backfist is stupid. The nose seems safe. The mechanics of this technique, unless you're yanking the person into it, make it a bonus and not a finisher, in my book.

"one knuckle punch to the nipple,or just above."

Well, that's where fists fly out from the chambered position in kata. That doesn';t mean that's all they are. Strikiung straight out is one way of saying "I am focusing on mechanics and not on a specific target," so the punch means punches in general, and can be adapted however the foe moves or is pulled, attacking targets as they become available. If you were to aim at the solar plexus however, that would limit allthe things the punch could be.

Pressure point wise liver 14 is just below the nipple, and Montaigue writes, "Needless to say (of course!) KO will occur... mainly because the recipient is dead." Stops the heart, collapses the lungs, mental problems, liver failure, blindness, delayed death, no antidote, etc etc.

Kidney 23 is just medial, and hitting it will "stop the heart," so "he will be unable to carry on the fight." I'll say. Dead people are pushovers.

Stomach 16-18 run thru the nipple (17 is the nipple). They are rumored to collectively cause: stopping the heart, death with a medium strike, if accurate to the millimeter; extreme qi drainage with mental disintegration (presumably not when used in "erotic massage," and headache/ nausea.

If you believe that, I can send more, plus I'm starting this new business, and if you send me $2k cash I promise a 400% return within a month.

"has anyone studied boxing/boxers? is a blow to the chin a pressure point"

The chin isn't the ideal target. It's pretty hard, and hurts even a palm, and it's the strongest direction. Better yet is to hit more to the side striking up and back. This twists the head in two directions and sloshes the brain around more, making for a better KO. The points usually cited at stomach 5 and 6.

"I know that when hit hard a boxers brain is supposed to make contact with the inside of his skull causing loss of consciousness, but is this the only process involved? or all that can occur?"

They can tear blood vessels and have a serious or fatal bleed. They also shear nerve fibers with every punch and can end up with dementia pugilistica, or parkinsons, like Ali. Not a sport I'd recommend.
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Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by Guest »

Hitting the chin or forehead with your backfist is stupid.

1. I disagree Ian

2. Btw. poor choice of words

Laird
Ted Dinwiddie
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Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by Ted Dinwiddie »

The way I have been taught to target the chin for maximum effect/minumum effort is with an "in and down" strike to the St-5 points (right below the corner(s) of the mouth) or a downward strike to CV-24 (the "shelf" on the tip of the chin). A back fist would work with a downward twist on the St-5 point if the head is upright. A downeward hammer fist would work well on the CV point. Of course causing the head to change position by hitting something else first might set up a good ole fashioned straight punch (no substitute for horsepower, as they say).

The shape of a person's jaw might preclude this attack (Don Knotts) or make it irresistable (Jay Leno).

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ted

"I learn by going where I have to go." - Theodore Roethke

[This message has been edited by Ted Dinwiddie (edited June 15, 2002).]
Ian
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Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by Ian »

Let me rephrase then.

Striking the forehead with the backfist is striking the hardest bone in the skull with two small joints between four small bones. You are very unlikely to damage the opponent and quite likely to damage your fist.

Striking the chin is a slightly different business because the chin is at least mobile, if the mouth is open. And the head will rotate more. But if the neck is held tightly and the jaw clenched, it's fairly immobile. Both are like punching a wood floor with a layer or two of fabric overlaying.

When punching the face you can also get cut by teeth. The mouth is the second dirtiest hole on the human body and its bacteria can end right in the joint, a very dangerous infection. Allen Moulton, if I recall, had a bad experience with this. Somtimes the joint has to be flayed open and irrigated repeatedly and IV antibiotics given.

Alternatives include using the palm and choosing other targets. If you hit too far from the base of the hand, you can bend a hand back and sprain it, but nothing should break. You might get a cut by teeth, but it'd be soft tissue which is better than a joint.

Hitting underneath the chin a little to either side rotates the head back and to the side for better effect. Pushing/striking the forehead if that's all that's visible in a bind can temporize to a better technique. The nose doesn't need a hard surface like a fist to be damaged, and if you are using a fist, there are preferable targets to the chin or forehead, like the side of the jaw. Here the masseter muscle provides a suitable layer of padding but it's still a great place to transfer energy into the head. St-5 and 6 are there for extra kyusho value. The temple is softer than either forehead or chin if you have well conditioned knuckles and can back a serious wallop.

If punching the forehead and chin aren't stupid, they're high risk techniques with better alternatives available, IMNSHO.

[This message has been edited by Ian (edited June 15, 2002).]
M. Kelly
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Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by M. Kelly »

Ian,
Nice description of intracranial hemorrhages. Are you a physician?

The artery that is torn with the traumatic subarachnoid hemorrhage is the intracranial vertebral artery with sheering into the smaller vessels. The proposed mechanism is a rapid twisting of the head from the blow in the area mentioned. You can see a discussion of it in Dimaio's Forensic Pathology, Second Edition or if you prefer, look it up in journals, as there are quite a few articles on this in the peer reviewed literature.

No, the bruise is not on the scalp. The area of the bruise is located over the TW17 point. You can see a picture of the bruise I was talking about in: An Atlas of Forensic Pathology by Charles V. Wetli, Roger E. Mittleman, Valerie J. Rao, Amer Society of Clinical Pathology, January 1999. Page 2.
I think I am the only one who made the connection between the bruise and the point.

"Has anyone not familiar with pressure points been asked to chart their locations and frequency, with comparison afterwards to the charts?"

What locations? What is the relevance? I only referred to one location.

"How big were these bruises?"

What difference does the size of the bruise make?

What does "traditional teaching" mean? Are you saying that something just can't be possible if you were not taught about it? I was "traditionally" taught about traumatic subarachnoid, epidural, and subdural hemorrhages. So I really don't understand what you mean.

I think it would be interesting to find out the exact number of fatal assault cases that involve a traumatic subarachnoid hemorrhage.

Yes, I think the cause and effect relationship between striking the carotid sinus area and syncope/stroke were observed. However, I don't know why you stated "scarcity of case reports" as there are many and neurological deficits are known sequelae to blunt carotid artery trauma.
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Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by Bill Glasheen »

MK

Ian graduated from University of Virginia medical school, and is doing his residency in internal medicine at Beth Israel hospital (Boston). Ian managed to be able to help run the UVa Uechi Ryu karate club while a medical student - quite a feat considering most medical students turn into cave people. He also had enough spare time to engage people on these forums about various topics that tickled his fancy.

He's a tall, capable martial artist that needs to be fed (a problem common to most residents). Image

I find some of the references about the carotid interesting. I would think injuries like carotid dissections and occlusions would be rare - albeit EXTREMELY dangerous - and I imagine more common in older folks with stiffer arteries. Certainly this isn't what one would think of when talking about the response to a pressure point strike. But it should put the fear of god in folks who think this is a risk-free activity.

I'll be interested in seeing what the review article has to say.

Ian

This technique-to-the-face stuff is one that brings passionate arguments out of some. It has its origins in the contemporary fighting literature. In any case, fighting without equipment (gloves, shin guards, mouth guards, etc) is a high-risk activity - period. Sooner or later, somebody's going to get hurt. Image

jorvik

One must be careful about making generalizations by studying KOs in boxing. Remember that the fighters have these pillows on the ends of their hands, and the hands are tightly wrapped underneath the gloves. In that venue, the "home run" punch is generally achieved via total body force application. Bare-knuckled and/or open-handed fighting is a very different proposition. Being able to hold or squeeze one part of the body while hitting another also creates possibilities outside the realm of boxing. This is why it's difficult for many to understand what "real" fighting can be like.

- Bill
jorvik

Michael Kelly's pressure point book

Post by jorvik »

qoute
"Being able to hold or squeeze one part of the body while hitting another also creates possibilities outside the realm of boxing. This is why it's difficult for many to understand what "real" fighting can be like."

I think that your developing on another line here. I have seen somebody have their neck grabbed at a vital point and they started to pass out. it would have been quite possible to hit them at the same time.
We do tend to limit our viewpoints on things,
a pressure point attack could be used in conjunction with many things,a kick,a throw etc.. i mean why look at them in isolation?

one thing that has puzzled me though, I had heard originally, that pressure points were the black medicine of acupuncture, that they were points discovered while trying to heal, so how do the healing arts of acupuncture and shiatsu fit in to all this? or do they ?
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