BREAK-HEART
In these pages we have, in the past, discussed and analyzed a number of involuntary “ hard wired” body alarm reactions that go down by instinct at the first clear thought of impending confrontation!
One of the most insidious, as according to the teachings of the Lethal force Institute, is the so-called “ Startle reflex” >>> We have covered this somewhat before!
One example of this would be, as in one of the rape cases I investigated, A woman suddenly being awakened in the middle of the night by the rapist who had entered her apartment up the fire escape and through an unsecured window [broken lock]!
Another would be rounding a corner downtown with your wife / girl, your mind on dinner/theatre for the evening and suddenly facing two punks with knives and malevolent intent!
Professional police trainers, and psychologists who specialize in such matters, indicate that in the majority of “ trained” persons, a sudden and unexpected stimuli will trigger the “ flight response” as opposed to the “ fight response”!
The reason is that the autonomic, sympathetic nervous system takes over having been kicked in “ command” by the primal brain!
They write that when our “ startle response “ is triggered, our brain stem dictates preoccupations of inadequacies and doubts to handle the threat, as well as fears of injury and death, which in turn quickly deteriorate the ability of rational responses, appropriate tactics, and skills, martial or otherwise!
We have put forth before that, according to research, once the sympathetic nervous system is “ activated,” our vital functions are seriously impaired in spite of years of martial arts and or specialized weapons and tactics training!
All of that seems to go out the window quickly as the knees begin the " tremor dance" !
Our discussion here should focus on what ways and means to circumvent the “ negative response action”
Good talk on blocks
Moderator: Van Canna
Re: Good talk on blocks
by Van Canna » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:55 am
AlI'll bet the ability to react is can be complicated if one is in a deep sleep or in the middle of a dream. Different times that I have been startled in the middle of the night have resulted in different reactions, from not being able to move to springing up.
Van
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Van Canna - Posts: 50744
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Re: Good talk on blocks
by Van Canna » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:57 am
Awakening in the middle of the night in the midst of "sleep paralysis" is frightening. The mind shuts down body movements so we don't act out dreams and thrash about.
As far as training to get circumvent the negative response action, mental preparation is a start. Whenever I'm out and about in unfamiliar places, I walk with caution, telling my mind there may be trouble at the next corner or at the next doorway. Never let your guard down.
Focusing one's mind on the proper response before it occurs is the first step in being ready to respond to a threat.
Kevin
As far as training to get circumvent the negative response action, mental preparation is a start. Whenever I'm out and about in unfamiliar places, I walk with caution, telling my mind there may be trouble at the next corner or at the next doorway. Never let your guard down.
Focusing one's mind on the proper response before it occurs is the first step in being ready to respond to a threat.
Kevin
Van
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Van Canna - Posts: 50744
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Re: Good talk on blocks
by Van Canna » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:01 am
I related an incident that happened to me a couple years ago, where I was driving home from the Brockton dojo, ignoring the headlights in my rear view mirror that kept following me on the mile or so ride.
I was totally immersed in the music playing on the radio and didn't give a thought to the car driving up from behind as I parked the car on the street and turned off the ignition. (I had assumed a student or teacher was following me home for any number of reasons)
While I was reaching for my Gi bag, the driver's side door opened and I was faced with this unknown person. I froze! In the span of a second, the person said "Wrong guy. . . Sorry! He ran back to his car, where another person was sitting behind the wheel, and tore off down the street. Before I had a chance to recover, they were gone!
The point of my retelling this story is to acknowledge Van's points: Under normal conditions, I (and perhaps you) will not be able to defend yourself!
Depending on what this individual had in mind for "The right guy!", if it involved a gun or perhaps a knife, he would of had his way! I was trapped helplessly behind the wheel of my car with the doors unlocked!
In reliving the events with an intent to be 'prepared',
1. I realized that someone was following me. I elected not to heed this as a threat. That won't happen again.
2. Now, I remain conscious to vehicles following me. If one seems to remain behind me over a distance, I'll change my route to one that will not take me near home.
3. If an unknown car ever pulled up behind me as I parked, I would drive to a prearranged spot about 50 feet away, where I could safely assess the situation.
4. I have a plan of action, which I've rehearsed, to deal with any road rage or incident involving another car. Although not a guarentee method to avoid every threat, at least I won't be a sitting duck next time.
The one area that is most difficult for me to resolve is the point at which I must ACT!
All the training in the world will not help you ACT. This point is the critical moment where you release 100% of your mind/body/spirit into your programmed plan of action. "You are dead already. . . nothing else matters. . . Just Do It!"
Making this decision will overcome all the doubts and concerns that freeze an individual. You must understand and accept this mindset. You must train your body and mind to react and perform. One you release this 'demon', nothing will stop you until the threat has ended.
Not a pretty mindset. But a realistic mindset for the real world.
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GEM
I was totally immersed in the music playing on the radio and didn't give a thought to the car driving up from behind as I parked the car on the street and turned off the ignition. (I had assumed a student or teacher was following me home for any number of reasons)
While I was reaching for my Gi bag, the driver's side door opened and I was faced with this unknown person. I froze! In the span of a second, the person said "Wrong guy. . . Sorry! He ran back to his car, where another person was sitting behind the wheel, and tore off down the street. Before I had a chance to recover, they were gone!
The point of my retelling this story is to acknowledge Van's points: Under normal conditions, I (and perhaps you) will not be able to defend yourself!
Depending on what this individual had in mind for "The right guy!", if it involved a gun or perhaps a knife, he would of had his way! I was trapped helplessly behind the wheel of my car with the doors unlocked!
In reliving the events with an intent to be 'prepared',
1. I realized that someone was following me. I elected not to heed this as a threat. That won't happen again.
2. Now, I remain conscious to vehicles following me. If one seems to remain behind me over a distance, I'll change my route to one that will not take me near home.
3. If an unknown car ever pulled up behind me as I parked, I would drive to a prearranged spot about 50 feet away, where I could safely assess the situation.
4. I have a plan of action, which I've rehearsed, to deal with any road rage or incident involving another car. Although not a guarentee method to avoid every threat, at least I won't be a sitting duck next time.
The one area that is most difficult for me to resolve is the point at which I must ACT!
All the training in the world will not help you ACT. This point is the critical moment where you release 100% of your mind/body/spirit into your programmed plan of action. "You are dead already. . . nothing else matters. . . Just Do It!"
Making this decision will overcome all the doubts and concerns that freeze an individual. You must understand and accept this mindset. You must train your body and mind to react and perform. One you release this 'demon', nothing will stop you until the threat has ended.
Not a pretty mindset. But a realistic mindset for the real world.
------------------
GEM
Van
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Van Canna - Posts: 50744
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Re: Good talk on blocks
by Van Canna » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:05 am
Back to the question of how do we trained for the possible scenarios. I believe preset and unrehearsed reflex drills, sparring help, especially those that develop an immediate offensive attitude and action following a real or perceived attack.
I think training ourselves to face any suspicious or possibly dangerous movement or person(s) help. By this I mean, when you see sudden movement while on the street, hear footsteps coming from behind, or have your personal space invaded in an alarming manner, you turn and face it.
Combined with drills, one is more likely to respond with the "fight" response when an attack is happening or perceived.
Personally, I am fairly confident of a "fight response" when I am startled. Some of these experiences I had shared in other threads, like deploying my folder in response to a peripheral perception of sudden movement on a dark street, swing a stick at someone's head who jumped at me suddenly when I rounded a corner, and just last week spinning quickly in response to very fast footsteps coming into my personal space from behind.
In the first instance, the movement turned out to be a lurching dog. The second a teen who was playfully trying to scare a friend and got me instead. (I stopped just short of hitting him in head but scared the heck out of him instead.)
And, the last turned out to be a very fast jogger/runner who was even more startled by my turning to face him than me by his quick footsteps. These examples bring up a sticky issue of training which John Sanchez made in his book, Blade Master.
He writes: " I advise you to leave the defensive technique alone. To be effective in real situations, strictly defensive evade-draw-strike sequences must become reflex actions that are triggered by any small, sublimally perceived 'danger signal.'
Training oneself to such a hair triggered pitch does not go well with modern life. Imagine walking down a street, being bumped or startled, and automatically beginning a strike sequence before you can stop yourself."
Keep in mind Sanchez is dealing with the use of a blade and he makes a valid (I know) observation. But, I believe we can train to that type of reflex with empty hands.
Again, mistakes can happen as I pointed out with my own examples. We each have to decide whether that type of training is a help or a hindrance in "modern life."
Finally, the other significant matter that comes into play, again, is whether one is a "fighter" at heart. If one is not, no amount of training is going to help in a real life situation...
david
I think training ourselves to face any suspicious or possibly dangerous movement or person(s) help. By this I mean, when you see sudden movement while on the street, hear footsteps coming from behind, or have your personal space invaded in an alarming manner, you turn and face it.
Combined with drills, one is more likely to respond with the "fight" response when an attack is happening or perceived.
Personally, I am fairly confident of a "fight response" when I am startled. Some of these experiences I had shared in other threads, like deploying my folder in response to a peripheral perception of sudden movement on a dark street, swing a stick at someone's head who jumped at me suddenly when I rounded a corner, and just last week spinning quickly in response to very fast footsteps coming into my personal space from behind.
In the first instance, the movement turned out to be a lurching dog. The second a teen who was playfully trying to scare a friend and got me instead. (I stopped just short of hitting him in head but scared the heck out of him instead.)
And, the last turned out to be a very fast jogger/runner who was even more startled by my turning to face him than me by his quick footsteps. These examples bring up a sticky issue of training which John Sanchez made in his book, Blade Master.
He writes: " I advise you to leave the defensive technique alone. To be effective in real situations, strictly defensive evade-draw-strike sequences must become reflex actions that are triggered by any small, sublimally perceived 'danger signal.'
Training oneself to such a hair triggered pitch does not go well with modern life. Imagine walking down a street, being bumped or startled, and automatically beginning a strike sequence before you can stop yourself."
Keep in mind Sanchez is dealing with the use of a blade and he makes a valid (I know) observation. But, I believe we can train to that type of reflex with empty hands.
Again, mistakes can happen as I pointed out with my own examples. We each have to decide whether that type of training is a help or a hindrance in "modern life."
Finally, the other significant matter that comes into play, again, is whether one is a "fighter" at heart. If one is not, no amount of training is going to help in a real life situation...
david
Van
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Van Canna - Posts: 50744
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Re: Good talk on blocks
by Van Canna » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:08 am
If you do find suddenly that your pants have filled with feathers, your body has betrayed you and gone into abject fear mode there is further training that can bring you back out of it.
This involves prior decision and mind setting to
1. react immediatley - every second you don't react drains more blood sugar and gives more of the debilitating effects of the adrenaline dump.
Sudden fear may be inescapable but attack anyway as per The Gift of Fear by De Becker.
2. Turn fear into action by turning on your rage - anger can defeat fear and focus your intent, as per Strong on Defense by Sanford Strong.
So whether you react first with fight or flight, then next instance after you realize just how outgunned and horrible the situation is should turn on your prior decision to react immediately and attack explosively until you can escape.
------------------
Ted T.
The Fighting Old Man
This involves prior decision and mind setting to
1. react immediatley - every second you don't react drains more blood sugar and gives more of the debilitating effects of the adrenaline dump.
Sudden fear may be inescapable but attack anyway as per The Gift of Fear by De Becker.
2. Turn fear into action by turning on your rage - anger can defeat fear and focus your intent, as per Strong on Defense by Sanford Strong.
So whether you react first with fight or flight, then next instance after you realize just how outgunned and horrible the situation is should turn on your prior decision to react immediately and attack explosively until you can escape.
------------------
Ted T.
The Fighting Old Man
Van
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Van Canna - Posts: 50744
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Re: Good talk on blocks
by Van Canna » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:21 am
Here is your darkest ride
1] you are a trained martial artist as well as schooled in weaponry such knives and guns and you may even carry both.
2] you have acquired the “proper mind set” for confrontations!
3] You have attended legal and lethal force seminars and have learned “ a lot” about the judicious application of deadly force, enough so you feel comfortable and justified to use it in extremis!
4] Despite your awareness and avoidance skills , one day you find yourself singled out and isolated like prey by a predator[s] and you are successful enough to “ defend yourself” by a combination of empty hands to weapons leaving your “low life” assailant dead or badly hurt.
5] As you come out of the fog, you let some real nice, soft spoken, sympathetic, investigating police officer ask you all kinds of questions and you answer them all, in fact you can’t stop talking; after all you are in the right, you were defending yourself, and you have witnesses to prove it, and the officer is so friendly.
6] It still doesn’t dawn on you that you are a suspect, even after your arrest [ and you will be arrested ] , --
Meanwhile the police is busily preparing a report for submission to the District Attorney’s office for a decision on whether you should be prosecuted.
There may well be a grand jury indictment and criminal trial. And if you qualify for bail you may have to put up your house as collateral !
7] you really think that you are innocent until proven guilty, right? Think again.. in such cases of lethal force with a dead body, especially if an ‘underprivileged minority’ , the reverse is usually true.
Slowly it dawns on you that the punk you “took care of” is destroying you even after he is dead!
8] so you must hire a good criminal defense lawyer at $500 an hour, and if you are lucky, by the end of the trial you are only out of pocket about $200 grand!
9] While you await trial, there will be threats of retribution from the “victim’s” friends and family…phone calls in the middle of the night…your own friends will desert you, you will carry the “ mark of Cain”complex , you will suffer post traumatic stress, you will suffer impotence, you will fight with your wife, you may even divorce your wife!
The police will confiscate your gun and knife collection and scratch it all up nicely for you in their Evidence room; You won’t be able to buy a gun for self protection while out on bail under indictment;
Reporters will be hounding you, they will be publishing photos of your gun/knife collection making you appear as a blood thirsty Rambo type, you will be lucky to keep your job!
10] You will need sessions with spiritual advisers and shrinks who will delight telling you not to prepare to defend yourself violently the next time around. You will have nightmares, you will reenact the events over and over, there will be depression, withdrawal from society, and abuse of alcohol!
11] The trial will be an ordeal , most likely the prosecutor will be antigun, has a political agenda and will make you a scapegoat.
The family of the “victim” will be there glaring and swearing at you and your wife , if she is still around.
Your choice of weapon for the “kill” will come under attack, the type of bullets or knife will be highlighted , and even the names of the gun, knife, and holster you were using will be used against you if suggestive of aggression and violence!
12] so you are “ acquitted” and you think it’s over right? Not so fast! Now comes the civil suit for wrongful death by the estate of the decedent along with a prayer for punitive damages!
All they need prove is a preponderance of evidence and your goose is cooked!
13] So you turn the summons and complaint over to you insurance company only to have them turn down your defense and indemnity because you bought the wrong insurance policy, so you must defend yourself and pay experts and lawyers again and spend another $100 grand!
And if you are found guilty, kiss goodbye to what you own and expect a lien on your house!
So wouldn’t you really rather be raped , robbed, or beaten instead? Way much easier on you, don’t you think ?
Screw self defense...best to take a beating or worse...
Why? Because you have not learned to defend yourself against self defense.
1] you are a trained martial artist as well as schooled in weaponry such knives and guns and you may even carry both.
2] you have acquired the “proper mind set” for confrontations!
3] You have attended legal and lethal force seminars and have learned “ a lot” about the judicious application of deadly force, enough so you feel comfortable and justified to use it in extremis!
4] Despite your awareness and avoidance skills , one day you find yourself singled out and isolated like prey by a predator[s] and you are successful enough to “ defend yourself” by a combination of empty hands to weapons leaving your “low life” assailant dead or badly hurt.
5] As you come out of the fog, you let some real nice, soft spoken, sympathetic, investigating police officer ask you all kinds of questions and you answer them all, in fact you can’t stop talking; after all you are in the right, you were defending yourself, and you have witnesses to prove it, and the officer is so friendly.
6] It still doesn’t dawn on you that you are a suspect, even after your arrest [ and you will be arrested ] , --
Meanwhile the police is busily preparing a report for submission to the District Attorney’s office for a decision on whether you should be prosecuted.
There may well be a grand jury indictment and criminal trial. And if you qualify for bail you may have to put up your house as collateral !
7] you really think that you are innocent until proven guilty, right? Think again.. in such cases of lethal force with a dead body, especially if an ‘underprivileged minority’ , the reverse is usually true.
Slowly it dawns on you that the punk you “took care of” is destroying you even after he is dead!
8] so you must hire a good criminal defense lawyer at $500 an hour, and if you are lucky, by the end of the trial you are only out of pocket about $200 grand!
9] While you await trial, there will be threats of retribution from the “victim’s” friends and family…phone calls in the middle of the night…your own friends will desert you, you will carry the “ mark of Cain”complex , you will suffer post traumatic stress, you will suffer impotence, you will fight with your wife, you may even divorce your wife!
The police will confiscate your gun and knife collection and scratch it all up nicely for you in their Evidence room; You won’t be able to buy a gun for self protection while out on bail under indictment;
Reporters will be hounding you, they will be publishing photos of your gun/knife collection making you appear as a blood thirsty Rambo type, you will be lucky to keep your job!
10] You will need sessions with spiritual advisers and shrinks who will delight telling you not to prepare to defend yourself violently the next time around. You will have nightmares, you will reenact the events over and over, there will be depression, withdrawal from society, and abuse of alcohol!
11] The trial will be an ordeal , most likely the prosecutor will be antigun, has a political agenda and will make you a scapegoat.
The family of the “victim” will be there glaring and swearing at you and your wife , if she is still around.
Your choice of weapon for the “kill” will come under attack, the type of bullets or knife will be highlighted , and even the names of the gun, knife, and holster you were using will be used against you if suggestive of aggression and violence!
12] so you are “ acquitted” and you think it’s over right? Not so fast! Now comes the civil suit for wrongful death by the estate of the decedent along with a prayer for punitive damages!
All they need prove is a preponderance of evidence and your goose is cooked!
13] So you turn the summons and complaint over to you insurance company only to have them turn down your defense and indemnity because you bought the wrong insurance policy, so you must defend yourself and pay experts and lawyers again and spend another $100 grand!
And if you are found guilty, kiss goodbye to what you own and expect a lien on your house!
So wouldn’t you really rather be raped , robbed, or beaten instead? Way much easier on you, don’t you think ?
Screw self defense...best to take a beating or worse...
Why? Because you have not learned to defend yourself against self defense.
Van
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Van Canna - Posts: 50744
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Re: Good talk on blocks
by Van Canna » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:23 am
Van sensei,
Just when one thinks one has the developing mindset... SPLASH! A bucket of cold water to wake one up...
I guess one just has to have a very strong sense of one's right and wrong and to act on it when push comes to shove. One can only do one thing at a time. Take care of the problem at hand the best one can and deal with the others as they come along.
I think if one tries to take into account all the possible outcomes of one's action, one's body would be frozen while the mind would be reeling with endless scenarios.
At a certain point, one would think and see the "absurdity" of life and welcome the attacker's knifepoint or bullet to end this "dark ride."
What's the solution? For me, it is to know what I hold to be right and wrong and to defend it when I have to.
Think hard, prepare oneself and act "come what may..." (A favorite phase of some FMA groups.)
david
Just when one thinks one has the developing mindset... SPLASH! A bucket of cold water to wake one up...
I guess one just has to have a very strong sense of one's right and wrong and to act on it when push comes to shove. One can only do one thing at a time. Take care of the problem at hand the best one can and deal with the others as they come along.
I think if one tries to take into account all the possible outcomes of one's action, one's body would be frozen while the mind would be reeling with endless scenarios.
At a certain point, one would think and see the "absurdity" of life and welcome the attacker's knifepoint or bullet to end this "dark ride."
What's the solution? For me, it is to know what I hold to be right and wrong and to defend it when I have to.
Think hard, prepare oneself and act "come what may..." (A favorite phase of some FMA groups.)
david
Van
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Van Canna - Posts: 50744
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Re: Good talk on blocks
by Van Canna » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:30 am
Some thoughts I have gleaned from others:
If you ever have to defend yourself :
DO go see a doctor to be examined (not a family friend, someone you have to pay for) - the person seeking medical help will be seen more like the victim.
Blubber on the witness stand - Then I went to see a doctor after the oh so frightening attack....
DON"T ever brag to ANYONE about how you kicked the guys rear end
DO be the first to file a police report (if the guy lives) - the guilty never file police reports.
DON'T ever discuss how deadly your martial arts training makes you.
When testifying or answering questions the real benefit of martial arts is the control you learn - you learned it in order to be able to defend yourself WITHOUT really harming anyone, you only use his own strength against him etc.
If anyone stood a chance of defending himself WITHOUT actually harming the misfit it was you - but something (and you are not sure what) went wrong. - I am not sure where I got this information from.
Do not carry such lethal weapons of self defense. Tea bags with cayenne pepper inside can be torn open to throw in the eyes (perhaps you like Cayenne tea), a small bottle of lighter fluid and a lighter - squirt and light, a steel reinforced writing pen, etc.
These are not the normal items of someone out to kill people - easily explained to a jury. Also carry a pocket recorder that you can click on at a moments notice when you might get into it.
If you notice in one of my previous posts I discuss a confrontation I had with a guy in Mt.Vernon Missouri. I had followed this advice and started carrying a pocket recorder when there might be an altercation.
You can record the event without anyone knowing it. Its very inconspicuous.
Make statements like "I don't want to fight, please I am very very scared, hey stop that". Your voice will come through louder than the other peoples.
In the case of the Mt.Vernon incident it also provided a tape that has been the source of a great many laughs as the other guy went from being captain tuff to lil' wuss.
- I got this advice from a guy I know who is a 2 time ex-con who served each time for manslaughter, served in every maximum security prison in his state, was on the FBI most wanted list.
He developed these ideas after being out and wanting to avoid any other future problems. I can't say the guy is a close friend of mine, but who better else to learn from?
Criminals often have alot to teach us about crime. Another thing he said once to me that is valuable to keep in mind in a scenario such as Van Canna describes "If you can survive a situation, you can always regain anything you might have lost - wives, friends, money etc".
It is true - this two time loser has a trim little wife, new house etc. Dark clouds always disperse again at some point. The pocket recorder has helped me in several non physical confrontations as well - it made my life so much easier in the legal system later to have proof of what was said on tape.
Van Canna Sensei, what you say is truly scary....maybe more so than the actual attack.
I guess that helps make physical attacks less scary. But considering the legal consequences of survival, one might at some point hope instead for the big dirt nap.
But considering we might be lucky enough to survive such an attack so as to one day enjoy a good road rage beating from the scantily clad Kathy Long - I think it is well worth honing our self defense skills.
Bruised Lee
If you ever have to defend yourself :
DO go see a doctor to be examined (not a family friend, someone you have to pay for) - the person seeking medical help will be seen more like the victim.
Blubber on the witness stand - Then I went to see a doctor after the oh so frightening attack....
DON"T ever brag to ANYONE about how you kicked the guys rear end
DO be the first to file a police report (if the guy lives) - the guilty never file police reports.
DON'T ever discuss how deadly your martial arts training makes you.
When testifying or answering questions the real benefit of martial arts is the control you learn - you learned it in order to be able to defend yourself WITHOUT really harming anyone, you only use his own strength against him etc.
If anyone stood a chance of defending himself WITHOUT actually harming the misfit it was you - but something (and you are not sure what) went wrong. - I am not sure where I got this information from.
Do not carry such lethal weapons of self defense. Tea bags with cayenne pepper inside can be torn open to throw in the eyes (perhaps you like Cayenne tea), a small bottle of lighter fluid and a lighter - squirt and light, a steel reinforced writing pen, etc.
These are not the normal items of someone out to kill people - easily explained to a jury. Also carry a pocket recorder that you can click on at a moments notice when you might get into it.
If you notice in one of my previous posts I discuss a confrontation I had with a guy in Mt.Vernon Missouri. I had followed this advice and started carrying a pocket recorder when there might be an altercation.
You can record the event without anyone knowing it. Its very inconspicuous.
Make statements like "I don't want to fight, please I am very very scared, hey stop that". Your voice will come through louder than the other peoples.
In the case of the Mt.Vernon incident it also provided a tape that has been the source of a great many laughs as the other guy went from being captain tuff to lil' wuss.
- I got this advice from a guy I know who is a 2 time ex-con who served each time for manslaughter, served in every maximum security prison in his state, was on the FBI most wanted list.
He developed these ideas after being out and wanting to avoid any other future problems. I can't say the guy is a close friend of mine, but who better else to learn from?
Criminals often have alot to teach us about crime. Another thing he said once to me that is valuable to keep in mind in a scenario such as Van Canna describes "If you can survive a situation, you can always regain anything you might have lost - wives, friends, money etc".
It is true - this two time loser has a trim little wife, new house etc. Dark clouds always disperse again at some point. The pocket recorder has helped me in several non physical confrontations as well - it made my life so much easier in the legal system later to have proof of what was said on tape.
Van Canna Sensei, what you say is truly scary....maybe more so than the actual attack.
I guess that helps make physical attacks less scary. But considering the legal consequences of survival, one might at some point hope instead for the big dirt nap.
But considering we might be lucky enough to survive such an attack so as to one day enjoy a good road rage beating from the scantily clad Kathy Long - I think it is well worth honing our self defense skills.
Bruised Lee
Van
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Van Canna - Posts: 50744
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Re: Good talk on blocks
by Van Canna » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:33 am
"Do not carry such lethal weapons of self defense. Tea bags with cayenne pepper inside can be torn open to throw in the eyes (perhaps you like Cayenne tea), a small bottle of lighter fluid and a lighter - squirt and light, a steel reinforced writing pen, etc. These are not the normal items of
someone out to kill people - easily explained to a jury. Also carry a pocket recorder that you can click on at a moments notice when you might get into it."
Sorry, I can't agree here... If it is a lethal confrontation, I am truly in fear on my life or worse, my children, then I want my .45 and I want it right f*ing now.. The recorder is a nice thought.
It might help with non-lethal altercations.. but I don't get into enough of those to make if worthwhile to carry.. Besides, I hate carrying *stuff*, pepper spray, knife, flashlight, 2 spare mags, map, that all the experts say to carry. I would need a friggin daysack.
"it is here that your second line of self defense must win...it is not that you are the victim and were justified in the force you used but that you can communicate that to the nice IO at the scene or be quiet. "
Absolutely: "Excuse me officier, I really want to help, but I am so shaken right now that I couldn't possibly provide anything of worth... please wait "
if pressed, "I did what I did to stop his felonious assault, but I am so shaken..I need time to get my thoughts together..."
T Rose
later
Van
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Van Canna - Posts: 50744
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Re: Good talk on blocks
by Van Canna » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:39 am
Overlaps with my own advice. I have seen too many people try and talk their ways out with the police to no avail, especially when still in the afterefffects of the biochemical cocktail. I still opt for so much silence as possible, tactically. Prosecutors are forbidden from commenting on such silence in the States (doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but it risks a mistrial.
Student
Student
Van
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Van Canna - Posts: 50744
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Re: Good talk on blocks
by Van Canna » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:43 am
the average FBI agent has to draw and fire on a moving target (coming towards them) in under 1.5 seconds. This is when they know the target is coming, it doesn't take into account reaction time which for most people .5 seconds.
Throw in some decision time ... If you do the math, dividing 21 feet down to say 7, well you are out of time. It is obvious that you need some type of fending action (a term I first heard used by Jim Grover, protection expert) that would allow you to retrieve whatever weapon you have.
The real issue here isn't whether you poke him in the eye with a chopstick left over from lunch or whether you shoot him with your new magic dragon slaying bullet. The real issue is training and tactics.
A dirty chopstick (or 4) will probally accomplish the goal. I don't feel as though it would have the same knock down power. A pistol is marginal at best, experts (which I am not) advocate at least a double tap.
People shot through the heart have been known to use the "dead man's time" to still fire off rounds, stab and otherwise maim.
Let's not even get into multiples or deterrence. For example, the majority of gun defenses end up with bad guy held at gunpoint... chopstick-point??? (just kidding, the image kind of hit my funny bone)..
You must have options along the entire force continum (sp.). Guns only address a specific portion and are not a panacea nor are they for everyone.
One last note, using handloads or firing a warning shot will without a doubt get you into trouble. Carrying special devices made with the intent of mayhem (even teabags full of pepper) will be construed the same..
btw I don't prefer a .45, I've done all my training on one.. I'll probally be switching to a G33 in .357SIG...
T Rose
Throw in some decision time ... If you do the math, dividing 21 feet down to say 7, well you are out of time. It is obvious that you need some type of fending action (a term I first heard used by Jim Grover, protection expert) that would allow you to retrieve whatever weapon you have.
The real issue here isn't whether you poke him in the eye with a chopstick left over from lunch or whether you shoot him with your new magic dragon slaying bullet. The real issue is training and tactics.
A dirty chopstick (or 4) will probally accomplish the goal. I don't feel as though it would have the same knock down power. A pistol is marginal at best, experts (which I am not) advocate at least a double tap.
People shot through the heart have been known to use the "dead man's time" to still fire off rounds, stab and otherwise maim.
Let's not even get into multiples or deterrence. For example, the majority of gun defenses end up with bad guy held at gunpoint... chopstick-point??? (just kidding, the image kind of hit my funny bone)..
You must have options along the entire force continum (sp.). Guns only address a specific portion and are not a panacea nor are they for everyone.
One last note, using handloads or firing a warning shot will without a doubt get you into trouble. Carrying special devices made with the intent of mayhem (even teabags full of pepper) will be construed the same..
btw I don't prefer a .45, I've done all my training on one.. I'll probally be switching to a G33 in .357SIG...
T Rose
Van
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Van Canna - Posts: 50744
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Re: Good talk on blocks
by Van Canna » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:45 am
RACastanet »
As I sit here and read this I have an S&W .38 in one pocket, a Spyderco Delica in another, and OC spray in my jacket pocket. Quite a force continuum kit. Do I want to use any of the above? No. Would I? I hope to never find out. But, trained I am, none the less.
Statistically, I have been told that every three feet between yourself and a shooter halves your risk, so evasion is a great tactic. At ten yards, an assailant with a snub nose would have to be verrrrry good to hit you even standing still, so move laterally to enhance survival chances.
Now, how about a prepondurance of numbers? Backed in a corner? With your wife and kids?
Give me the firearm in that situation every time.
I do have a nice Glock 30 in .45 but have not carried it yet. The weather has been warm enough to go jacketless so I prefer the pocket .38.
Rich
As I sit here and read this I have an S&W .38 in one pocket, a Spyderco Delica in another, and OC spray in my jacket pocket. Quite a force continuum kit. Do I want to use any of the above? No. Would I? I hope to never find out. But, trained I am, none the less.
Statistically, I have been told that every three feet between yourself and a shooter halves your risk, so evasion is a great tactic. At ten yards, an assailant with a snub nose would have to be verrrrry good to hit you even standing still, so move laterally to enhance survival chances.
Now, how about a prepondurance of numbers? Backed in a corner? With your wife and kids?
Give me the firearm in that situation every time.
I do have a nice Glock 30 in .45 but have not carried it yet. The weather has been warm enough to go jacketless so I prefer the pocket .38.
Rich
Van
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Van Canna - Posts: 50744
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Re: Good talk on blocks
by Van Canna » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:51 am
A few points to ponder:
1]
This is a real danger that can spell your doom, and it is difficult to keep your mouth shut, as there is a compulsion to tell and rationalize!
Another vexing problem is the posting of your experience on these forums BEFORE the matter is actually concluded from potential criminal or civil exposures.
Similarly, it is recommended by very sharp counsel, that we refrain from posting in a “macho” style so as not to create a “Rambo” web personality both a potential prosecutor and plaintiff’s attorney would latch on gleefully in quest of character assassination before a jury of your peers!
Further, should you have the “right” liability coverage that might provide legal defense and damages indemnity for the “justified” killing of your attacker in self defense, and you place your insurance company on notice soon after the event, as you are required to in anticipation of a claim or of being sued by the estate of the decedent, you will have to be very careful how you dispense details of the event to the insurance company’s investigators.
If criminal charges are pending and you give a recorded, signed or verbal statement to the insurance company’s claims people, that information is discoverable both by the criminal prosecutor and the plaintiff’s attorney, and it will be dissected and used against you in many inventive ways!
Refer the insurance company’s investigators to your criminal defense counsel for any information and keep your mouth shut!
Also, chances are that the insurance company may reserve its rights to deny you coverage if the investigation should show that you were the aggressor instead of a victim acting in self-defense! If they then appoint a tort defense attorney on your behalf, a technical conflict of interest will arise , and you have the right, in most jurisdictions, to choose your own civil defense lawyer at the insurance company’s expense!
This is not legal advice. Always consult an attorney practicing in your own jurisdiction before you take any action one way or the other. I am not an attorney.
One way to beat the reaction time problem is to carry an S&W .38 caliber Centennial [hammerless] in jacket pocket, your hand on the gun in your pocket. You then fire the gun through your pocket. That is your fastest “draw” that beats a knife or shank thrust hands down and it carries lots more stopping power!
And killing by gunfire carries less social stigma than “ shanking” your assailant!
And there would not be any panic stimulus in your “aspiring cadaver,” because he will never see the gun, only a burning hole in your pocket after the shot numbs him!
And less than serious weapons have a way to let you down under the “ klutz factor ” of the adrenaline dump, mostly antagonizing your rapist and mugger into tearing you apart and beating you half to death.
“, Using hand loads or firing a warning shot will without a doubt get you into trouble. Carrying special devices made with the intent of mayhem (even teabags full of pepper) will be construed the same.” [Rose-sensei]
Very true!
The “ mindset” for any confrontation is always “ situational dominance”…which is cultivated along the force continuum concept of “ avoidance first, guile and wit second, less than lethal weapons next, unarmed technique and lethal force in descending order” [Jim Grover]
1]
[student]“Before you confide with your spiritual advisor, physician, etc., find out from your attorney and your advisor whether communications to these people are privileged - and under what circumstances”
This is a real danger that can spell your doom, and it is difficult to keep your mouth shut, as there is a compulsion to tell and rationalize!
Another vexing problem is the posting of your experience on these forums BEFORE the matter is actually concluded from potential criminal or civil exposures.
Similarly, it is recommended by very sharp counsel, that we refrain from posting in a “macho” style so as not to create a “Rambo” web personality both a potential prosecutor and plaintiff’s attorney would latch on gleefully in quest of character assassination before a jury of your peers!
Further, should you have the “right” liability coverage that might provide legal defense and damages indemnity for the “justified” killing of your attacker in self defense, and you place your insurance company on notice soon after the event, as you are required to in anticipation of a claim or of being sued by the estate of the decedent, you will have to be very careful how you dispense details of the event to the insurance company’s investigators.
If criminal charges are pending and you give a recorded, signed or verbal statement to the insurance company’s claims people, that information is discoverable both by the criminal prosecutor and the plaintiff’s attorney, and it will be dissected and used against you in many inventive ways!
Refer the insurance company’s investigators to your criminal defense counsel for any information and keep your mouth shut!
Also, chances are that the insurance company may reserve its rights to deny you coverage if the investigation should show that you were the aggressor instead of a victim acting in self-defense! If they then appoint a tort defense attorney on your behalf, a technical conflict of interest will arise , and you have the right, in most jurisdictions, to choose your own civil defense lawyer at the insurance company’s expense!
This is not legal advice. Always consult an attorney practicing in your own jurisdiction before you take any action one way or the other. I am not an attorney.
One way to beat the reaction time problem is to carry an S&W .38 caliber Centennial [hammerless] in jacket pocket, your hand on the gun in your pocket. You then fire the gun through your pocket. That is your fastest “draw” that beats a knife or shank thrust hands down and it carries lots more stopping power!
And killing by gunfire carries less social stigma than “ shanking” your assailant!
And there would not be any panic stimulus in your “aspiring cadaver,” because he will never see the gun, only a burning hole in your pocket after the shot numbs him!
And less than serious weapons have a way to let you down under the “ klutz factor ” of the adrenaline dump, mostly antagonizing your rapist and mugger into tearing you apart and beating you half to death.
“, Using hand loads or firing a warning shot will without a doubt get you into trouble. Carrying special devices made with the intent of mayhem (even teabags full of pepper) will be construed the same.” [Rose-sensei]
Very true!
The “ mindset” for any confrontation is always “ situational dominance”…which is cultivated along the force continuum concept of “ avoidance first, guile and wit second, less than lethal weapons next, unarmed technique and lethal force in descending order” [Jim Grover]
Van
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Van Canna - Posts: 50744
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Re: Good talk on blocks
by Van Canna » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:58 am
I guess it all boils down to the old addage: "better to be judged by twelve than carried by six!" You guys have a lot of intresting points. This is one of the best disscussions I've seen in a while. However I would like to add my own observations to the pool.
First off, on the issue of talking to the police-I doubt that too many encounters actually end up in someone geting killed. I know it happens, but most of the stuff I hear about is the run of the mill assaults.
In which case my advice would be to get the hell out of there before the police arrive. I know what your thinking-how politically incorrect. I have a friend that works for the police dept. and he has told me the magnitude of unsolved murders that exist let alone the number of assaults whose perpetrator was never positively identified or apprehended.
Personally, if I was going down one way or another I would be most likely to take the gamble that I could get away and face no charges rather than stick around and talk to a cop which could, as you all have described, end up with me in the hot seat regardless of my intentions.
Sorry if my view abrades some of your philosophies on accepted behavior but I'm of the opinion that the cops are not always your friends. I have to agree with the guy who said silence is the best policy.
I know that you could raise a lot of questions to negate my hypothesis but let me explain.
I read a book(forgot the title) years ago which was written by a former clandestine operative in a former country. There were a lot of good examples of how one avoids the obstacles that will be in such a situation.
for example. 1. How to "look normal" and unsuspicious when cops are searching the crowd for someone. 2. How to run and effectively hide from any pursuer. 3. wearing gloves at all times to avoid leaving fingerprints. etc.
There was also a chapter on how to deal with the issue of having your car parked close by. The author suggests leaving the scene on foot before the cops get there and either coming back for it later dressed differently or sending a friend back for it.
The author said that it was effective because most people arent paying much attention to such details at the time to relate them effectively to authorities.
There are also some intresting and cool ideas maybe not so practical like installing a licence plate flip flop to avoid anyone getting your plate!
!Personally, in my small town where the cops are major assholes to everyone regardless and if I was in such a situation I belive that I would choose one of these avenues instead of the "accepted"way.
Sure they would like you to believe that the perpetrator always gets caught but the statistics show otherwise.
Brat
First off, on the issue of talking to the police-I doubt that too many encounters actually end up in someone geting killed. I know it happens, but most of the stuff I hear about is the run of the mill assaults.
In which case my advice would be to get the hell out of there before the police arrive. I know what your thinking-how politically incorrect. I have a friend that works for the police dept. and he has told me the magnitude of unsolved murders that exist let alone the number of assaults whose perpetrator was never positively identified or apprehended.
Personally, if I was going down one way or another I would be most likely to take the gamble that I could get away and face no charges rather than stick around and talk to a cop which could, as you all have described, end up with me in the hot seat regardless of my intentions.
Sorry if my view abrades some of your philosophies on accepted behavior but I'm of the opinion that the cops are not always your friends. I have to agree with the guy who said silence is the best policy.
I know that you could raise a lot of questions to negate my hypothesis but let me explain.
I read a book(forgot the title) years ago which was written by a former clandestine operative in a former country. There were a lot of good examples of how one avoids the obstacles that will be in such a situation.
for example. 1. How to "look normal" and unsuspicious when cops are searching the crowd for someone. 2. How to run and effectively hide from any pursuer. 3. wearing gloves at all times to avoid leaving fingerprints. etc.
There was also a chapter on how to deal with the issue of having your car parked close by. The author suggests leaving the scene on foot before the cops get there and either coming back for it later dressed differently or sending a friend back for it.
The author said that it was effective because most people arent paying much attention to such details at the time to relate them effectively to authorities.
There are also some intresting and cool ideas maybe not so practical like installing a licence plate flip flop to avoid anyone getting your plate!
!Personally, in my small town where the cops are major assholes to everyone regardless and if I was in such a situation I belive that I would choose one of these avenues instead of the "accepted"way.
Sure they would like you to believe that the perpetrator always gets caught but the statistics show otherwise.
Brat
Van
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Van Canna - Posts: 50744
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