Seisan Jump back

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Seisan Jump back

Postby Van Canna » Mon Jun 06, 2016 4:48 pm

We have talked about this before on the forums, Bill Glasheen also commented on it.

Most of us seniors already know that the jump back was more of a 'show' thing rather than a really viable defense against a low cutting sword attack.

The move may have some benefits in developing balance and athleticism in students, and because it is in the traditional kata it should continue in its execution_but it is in the applications that you need to wake up to it.

I personally believe that the move does not bode well in self defense for a certain type of heavy set student, especially if were to do it in the street under adrenaline_because he could easily topple over and then find himself on the ground, maybe stunned or worse, while an attacker with a bat will beat him to death.

First of all, none of us will be able to foresee how the angle of the bat attack will take form...maybe low to the legs, maybe across your neck, maybe across your elbows/centerline, maybe straight down like a hammer.

Once I heard an Okinawan master explain to me that the move was designed to jump over an attack by one of those long Chinese weapons being swung at your legs from a distance. That would make more sense, other than the come back with the 'jump forward' to then block something with the left arm and elbow strike etc.

In other words, if an attacker is swinging a long weapon at your legs from a distance, and you jump back, how are you going to jump forward the long distance to close on the attacker for some block/elbow strike/ Uraken/Shoken?

So was that jump back move really designed against a bat a stick, whatever_ so you could jump over it?

I like it better the way Toyama sensei taught it, as a defense against a power front kick.

He did not teach the jump back, but used it as kanbun Sensei showed it_ as a defense against a searing front kick followed by a punch:

*Not a jump-back, but a quick step-back. It is an oblique step -- you go one step back and sideways. No sword or club in the bunkai, but a kick launched at you full force...

You step back out of the way and sideways, redirecting and controlling the kick with the downward-sweeping left arm (and grasping hand).

{This makes lots of sense to me because you don't ever want to block a powerful front kick by slamming your ulna bone across the incoming sharp shin of the kicker.}
Basically, we don't block the kick; we block ourselves away from the kick. The attacker then drops into a lunge-punch position while we drop into a horse stance with a left circular block for the punch, and deliver the elbow strike, etc


Some of us feel that the jump back with the left leg being raised upon landing is for locking an incoming kick with the left leg.

Maybe so, But personally I would not teach that, because as you fly back attempting to land solid and balanced, while a powerful front kick launched by a very strong and heavy opponent, is crashing into your rising left leg for a block...will knock you flat on your ass.

If you don't believe it, come to our dojo, where I have just the right guy for you to try it on.
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Re: Seisan Jump back

Postby Van Canna » Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:41 pm

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Re: Seisan Jump back

Postby Van Canna » Wed Jun 15, 2016 2:44 pm

The seisan jump back 'muscle memory'...

Question: will it make you attempt a seisan jump-back on an icy or rainy street?
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Re: Seisan Jump back

Postby Art Rabesa » Wed Jun 15, 2016 9:59 pm

Toyama Sensei's method is how I do it and teach it. It simply makes more sense. I hardly move back at all in seisan kata when doing this movement. I like to come off the jump back (or step back ) very strong into the next movement. Plus -- it is the final movement of seisan and finishing strong is always a good thing to do.
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Re: Seisan Jump back

Postby Van Canna » Thu Jun 16, 2016 1:22 am

It is also fun to do it.
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Re: Seisan Jump back

Postby paulg » Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:14 pm

In the hands of most people, a baseball bat is as deadly, if not deadlier, than a knife. Most of us wouldn't stand a chance (Unless you are Jim and Scott Hulse, our British Uechi brothers, who fought off four bat-wielding attackers and put them in the hospital... ask Fedele about this.) And a sword? in the classical Seisan Bonkai defense? Pure fantasy. But to jump back and away from a spearing pole or a long kick? Makes more sense. Good thing bad guys don't carry swords anymore!
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Re: Seisan Jump back

Postby Van Canna » Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:31 pm

Good points Paul.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yh6aA8PVfM

Very few people, including skilled martial artists, have the physical skills and mental fortitude to squarely face up to a bat attack by a crazed assailant.

Usually victims freeze in terror or resort to a primal flail with predictable results.

Running away, sometimes exacerbates the danger as the assailant will give chase striking from behind.

There is also no guarantee that any karate defensive technique will stop a maniac's forward momentum hell bent in wanting to kill you with the bat. Yes, even our famed elbow strike may fail to stop certain opponents.

If we look at the video above, we can see how the worst mistake by the victim is to allow the punk to start the swing.

Basically, we need to develop skills to move into the swing to jam motion of the forward elbow, skills to angle movements, footwork skills to 'ghost' an attacker's targeting of you, and to be able to circle behind him and disappear.

Facing off the attacker, waiting fr him to start the swing so you can block it and then counter, remaining in the contact zone, is ill advised.

Basically, the mindset should be 'I am already dead' so I'm going to take him with me, and charge the attack with oblique movements and try to rip the bat out of his hands.

That's what we work on at the Shinkookai dojo.

Jumping over an attack with a long pole aimed at the legs? Good idea, aside from the 'jumping back in' for the elbow strike etc. as one will never cover the distance back to reach the swinger, and then why would one want to? Either run away, or move up the force continuum...which many Uechi people don't seem to believe in.

This is an easy weapon to get to.

https://www.kimberamerica.com/pepper-blaster

https://youtu.be/XeUid2gt-XU
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Re: Seisan Jump back

Postby Van Canna » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:24 pm

If the person is attempting to "hit a home run" --using it the same way a baseball player would swing at a ball the key to success is his forward elbow when escape is not an option.
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Re: Seisan Jump back

Postby Van Canna » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:25 pm

Part 1 The tools you need are:

1) Footwork: The abilitiy to transverse distance skillfully / with ease.

2) Angling skills: Ability to be in odd awkward angles for him

3) Shields and barriers (like a chair for instance): Picking up things that could be an effective barrier/ shield to his threat or finding barriers to create distance for escape--like a table.

4) An escape route: A way out of you momentarily halt his attack

5) His lack of skill using the stick. The more skilled he is with the weapon the less your skills will matter. Unfortunately you have no control over this.
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Re: Seisan Jump back

Postby Van Canna » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:27 pm

Part 2 range theory:
In stick defense where the stick is longer than 4 1/2 feet --long enough where it takes two hands to really effectively use it most self defense schools have a three range or 3 window theory. The terminology may change but the concept is pretty consistent from program to program

The outer window (range) is the space where he is too far away to hit you (out of range). In this range you need to increase that distance using footwork, angling and shields to move to your escape route. In outer range you are looking for a non-engagement strategy.
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Re: Seisan Jump back

Postby Van Canna » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:28 pm

The middle window

is where he is going to hit you with the tip or end of the stick is in a range to do damage. This is obviously the worse place to be and you have to make a decision to move to the inner or outer circle immediately.

It is hard to describe in print which way to go but as a general rule it will hinge on which range is easier for you to get to given your current environment and situation.
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Re: Seisan Jump back

Postby Van Canna » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:30 pm

The inner window

the space where he is too close to hit you with the stick (or in this case bat). Understand he may back peddle to get the right distance.

What you are looking for is control of his forward elbow.

If you found a shield, say a plate you took off a table you are going to jam his elbow down and into his body.

If you are bare-handed (which would seriously ******) you are going to use your hands to drive his forward elbow down and into his body.

In inner window engagement is the primary strategy--so the opposite of outer window.

You are not trying to injure his elbow but instead restrict his ability to swing the stick at you by retarding the range of motion of his forward elbow by jamming it against his own body.


If you are successful in jamming his elbow attempting to get behind him and keeping him from turning is a smart play.
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Re: Seisan Jump back

Postby Van Canna » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:34 pm

If you can't get away from it, the best way to defend yourself against a baseball bat or any swinging weapon like it... is this:

When your attacker winds up for a swing, immediately step straight in towards them so that they can't hit you within the proper radius of the swing.

Grab their wrists or forearms or the lower part of the bat before they can start the momentum going.

You'll be suddenly in their face which they don't expect, they won't be able to swing it at you properly or with enough force to do serious damage, and you are in a position to overpower them.

Step in, grab their arm, and then it's up to you how you deal with it… you could try to take the bat from their hands but it's difficult to do if they aren't distracted by something else…

I recommend kneeing them in the balls (if they're male) or head butting them in the nose, or stomping on their foot as hard as you can.

Whatever it takes to get them to lose their focus, and allow you to either take the bat from their hands or get away.
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