Amazing first strike video

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Amazing first strike video

Postby TSDguy » Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:54 pm

http://www.compfused.com/directlink/481/


Wow. Out numbered, out sized, restricitve clothing, terrible environment... nice work.
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Postby Bill Glasheen » Wed Dec 08, 2004 2:53 pm

I disagree about the first strike bit. That was first "strike" only in a narrowly defined, literal sense. But it certainly wasn't in a legal sense.

He was physically challenged for an extended period of time, and physically pushed several times from a position of disadvantage (antagonist being uphill and being much larger). And he was being continuously pursued by several in spite of the puncher's visible attempts to get the heck out of there and to keep distance. I believe I see both assault and a preponderance of force. Looks to me like legal grounds for an ass whooping. I'd take that video to court with me any day.

What you "see" is no telegraphing of the punch. Good! The puncher feinted by making it look like he was turning away - again. That predictably made this jerk follow him, and walk right into what was a really beautiful strike with great follow-through.

Felt good watching it. Classic case of time wounding all heels. 8) Thanks for the video; it made my morning.

- Bill
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Postby Norm Abrahamson » Wed Dec 08, 2004 3:02 pm

I have to agree with Bill. The puncher was the only one of the two fighters familiar with the concept of gravity. Much better to be up hill. As soon as he was able to walk up the slope above his bigger opponent, he let loose. When they grappled, the man lower on the slope used that to his advantage and pulled the higher man down. Unfortunately for him, he didn't hold him down. He moved right back up the hill to hit him again.

You know the old saw: Sh*t rolls downhill.

Sincerely,

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Postby Bill Glasheen » Wed Dec 08, 2004 3:10 pm

You beat me to the punch, Norm! Good find. 8) I went to get a soda, and saw the video replaying in my head. I came back to write the detail about his final move to "retreat" uphill. Notice how he gets the tactical advantage before unloading. Gravity, elevation, momentum, and surprise all come to a sweet intersection.

No doubt that after a point, he realized he had no choice. It was a planned punch, but not without provocation.

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Postby Darren Laur » Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:57 pm

the video also clearly shows what MAY likely happen if you hit with a closed fist....... this injury is what I have seen time and time again in many a street fight that I have attended to clean up.


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Postby Guest » Thu Dec 09, 2004 12:09 am

Second guy tried twice to get in on the action. Couldn't tell from the clip if he was wearing hard or soft boots. But a shot in the head from hard shell boots would make a mess of your head.

Personally I would have felt justified in driving a ski or ski pole into anyones face that approached me after the odds changed and the 2nd player and a shod foot were introduced to the mix.

What a waste on such a great powder day :roll:

Nice punch :multi:
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Postby Van Canna » Thu Dec 09, 2004 2:43 am

Didn't see one damn block. :wink:
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Postby Van Canna » Thu Dec 09, 2004 2:54 am

And on the punch that messed up the hand: Why is it that the Okinawan seniors insist on training the fist against makiwaras etc. when the punch is not really a part of the kata?

Some will think that they would not have been injured because they are "so conditioned" _

Some believe that they had more "conditioning" than Mike Tyson when he broke his hand in a real fight. That they would not have broken their hand. :roll:


And since Bill agrees that punching in a fight is not a good idea....then..then...why are we programming to punch over and over again, in prearranged kumites, when we should be devoting time to deprogramming punches and stick to traditional Uechi weapons? Last time I asked that question, we had the kumiteists _ dive under the tables and disappear. They will do the same now.. :wink:
:lol:
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Postby Bill Glasheen » Thu Dec 09, 2004 3:33 am

Gee wonder why? ;) You are such a tease...

Nothing wrong with a punch to the body, which is what you see in virtually all the yakusoku kumite, Van. It's the head that presents the problems.

Nothing wrong with practicing AGAINST your typical looping punch to the head, which is what you see in the last Dan kumite sequence. There isn't a lot of merit in practicing only against the excellent techniques of your system. That's kinda like kissing your sister, no? ;)

We all know in a perfect world we shouldn't be doing that fist to the head. But I don't think I'll ever completely program it out of me. I have absolute faith in my undercutting palm heel to the jaw but... Damn fist goes to the nose like a laser-guided missle. It's all those years of sparring that we were encouraged to do to test our mettle. Penalties for open-handed techniques to the head, right? Pavlovian conditioning takes hold.

I suppose I could do worse.

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Postby f.Channell » Thu Dec 09, 2004 4:32 am

Hey Laird,
I like the skiing and Uechi idea you put in my head.
Maybe if my young students did Sanchin in ski boots they'd bend their knees like I keep telling them to do.
:D
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Postby Guest » Thu Dec 09, 2004 4:40 am

yeah but they would cross their tips and face plant.............wait a minute they do anyways :roll: deploy the bum brake we are going to fast :multi:
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Postby Van Canna » Thu Dec 09, 2004 4:43 am

>Nothing wrong with a punch to the body, which is what you see in virtually all the yakusoku kumite, Van. It's the head that presents the problems. <

* No kidding _Bill… :wink:

Except for the fact that by instinct and by the “thump” of the cocktail, you will clench your fist as you try to hit your opponent’s face, just like the guy in the video. Under stress a human being regresses to primal states and the hand clenches into the fist of the ape-man!

When under the influence of the chemical cocktail, as the blood drains from the extremities and rushes to the major muscle groups, the hands move into a somewhat “numb” state and the fist clenches automatically in trying to regain some feeling! Additionally, as the muscles of the forearms tighten along with the rest of the body, there is an initial sympathetic reaction affecting the fingers!

The fist is a good tool to have at your disposal, but most of us are only kidding ourselves that we will have the luxury to “selectively” use our weapons in the time segments allotted to us in a real fight vying for immediate psychological and physical control!


Phil Messina, President of Modern Warrior Defensive Tactics Institute states, "The fist reflex is a response which occurs when an individual psychologically associates making a fist with high stress confrontational situations".

When you keep on programming punches on top of it, like in the kumites, in a real fight, it is delusional to think you will make the proper choice, i.e., going to the body with the fist as opposed to going for the head.
The fist is a good tool to have at your disposal, but most of us are only kidding ourselves that we will have the luxury to “selectively” use our weapons in the time segments allotted to us in a real fight vying for immediate psychological and physical control!


Clear enough? Ha..wait..martial artists know better..LOL :lol:

You have been programmed to punch, period, on top of the “fist reflex” _ and you are buying trouble, my friend.

Here is more
One group struck heavy bags at a minimum of 800 strikes with their fists, the second group struck heavy bags at a minimum of 800 strikes with open hands and the third group just did the final stress simulation.

The final simulation consisted of having an officer enter a smoke filled room, where the smoke has an odor and taste, strobe lights are on, the terrain is obstructed and wind is created by the use of high speed fans. All senses are overloaded.

Suddenly gunshots go off (on tape) and a figure comes running at the officer waving hands and screaming. The figure runs into the officer unless the officer moves away. This scenarios purpose is to stress out the officer enough to cause an involuntary discharge of the officer's firearm.

Each group had 50 participants. From the fist group there were 18 involuntary discharges. Nine of those officers had their finger off trigger prior to discharge. From the non-fist group there were 3 involuntary discharges, with 2 finger off trigger prior to discharge. From the control group 1 finger off trigger prior to discharge.

"Post Experiment interviews strongly indicated that a high percentage of participants who had involuntary discharges had studied martial arts emphasizing fisted strikes. Boxers were foremost in this category," said Messina.

Based partially on these experiments Modern Warrior DT Institute has taken all fisted strikes out of their Police Defensive Tactics curriculum and replaced them with palm strikes and other open handed alternatives when counter striking becomes necessary.

Conclusion

Using fisted strikes as the primary hand technique of police defensive tactics training is a perfect example of how sport martial arts influence police training. Many DT Instructors have a boxing or karate background, they teach what they like to do.

Defensive tactics has to be based on what law enforcement officers will encounter in the field, not what an instructor encountered in the ring. The primary strike should make sense for police work. The primary hand technique for law enforcement should be the palm strike.


Breyette sensei
Since jiyu kobo was no longer being taught, students who went in for
fighting competition (which was becoming increasingly popular at the time
and which attracted new students to the winning dojo or style quite nicely)
were showing lack of control and technique in fighting.

There were too many
injuries due to lack of training in distancing, focus, balance, etc. -- not
by powerful techniques but by plain sloppy fighting. A method had to be
developed outside of strict Bunkai to teach more control in attack/defense
techniques. The finalized set of kumites fulfilled this function.
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First strike

Postby Van Canna » Thu Dec 09, 2004 4:54 am

Tonight I was watching the yearly fencing tournament at Brandeis University.

I noticed that the winners were the fencers who attacked the attack or struck first to pre-empt the opponent.

The ones who backed up to parry and counter, more often than not _got scored upon.
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Postby Stryke » Thu Dec 09, 2004 4:57 am

I like the fact Rick and Laird do the shokens even In kanshiwa .

I`m dissilusioned with the fist and fort a while did try train fist to the body , these days I prefer Palms, Bushikens , Shokens , deffinately a strong point of Uechi .

Another reason Ive gone away from the Fist is the amount of damage the Thumb can receive when using it in a traditional sparring sense , my thumbs have really taken a beating and Ive had to make a big effort to rehab them .
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Postby Guest » Thu Dec 09, 2004 4:59 am

Good stuff Van!

Fred your onto something. there is a parallel between Uechi and skiing. (pun intended)

A beginning skiier finds him self out of control going too fast, instead of attacking the hill the beginner becomes tentative. The poor skiier in fear begins to lean back from the approaching danger. This straightens the knees, drops the hands down and back. The poor SOB is now hurtling down the hill riding his tails with no hope in Hell of initating any turn. This process contines until the skier blows up or collides with something or some one.

Sure sounds like the Uechika who when attacked panics and retreats straight back as his attacker continues to drive forward. Sooner or later the retreating fighter also finds themself on their ass :wink:
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