Amazing first strike video

Sensei Canna offers insight into the real world of self defense!

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Postby Uechij » Sat Dec 11, 2004 4:18 pm

Benzocaine, good points.

“This thread has got me training a little diffferently. I practiced Bich slaps and palm heels on the MA bag yesterday. It seems you can really get a huge wallop/shocking/devestatng slap if you use the same mechanics as a hammer strike”

Yeah, and it takes very little training for the slap. It’s one of those natural tools most of us forget about.

Shaolin great post!

“But that said, I feel that Palms are best suited for use on the head areas and that my punches are often well suited to their job when used correctly.”

This pretty much sums it up.


“Now you are getting comical. You brought up the “properly trained fighter” you live with it.”

So are your implications to simple statements. :wink: But I’m being serious here; I think you were reading deeper into what I said. They were generalizations, that’s all. Why not answer the question though? It would help to understand each other better.

“I did not call you delusional, maybe I should have.”

You did, in the Phantom sort of way.

“Short memory? Review your posts.”

Sorry, I did, and don’t see it. If it’s not too much trouble, could you point it out to me? :)
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Postby Van Canna » Sat Dec 11, 2004 4:37 pm

Uechij..what is your name, and whom do you train under? And what is your time experience in Uechi?

Just curious.
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Postby Guest » Sat Dec 11, 2004 4:44 pm

Secondly, as Sammy Franco has written in his book “first strike” _ most of us are only kidding ourselves that we will have the luxury to “selectively” use our weapons in the time segments allotted to us in a real fight vying for immediate psychological and physical control!

This is the typical delusive behavior I find in us “martial artists”
is this whats got your knickers in a knot. Us refers to everyone including You me & Van. The collective group is subject to this foolish thinking . If you feel dissed by this fact, change your training. Burying your head in the sand and denying will not improve the outcome.

If your special and can target better than the rest of us, if you can choose your weapon because your "a properly trained fighter" then I guess your not one of "us".
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Postby Van Canna » Sat Dec 11, 2004 6:29 pm

I believe that while there are many interpretations of kata that the mechanics practiced should be congruent with the mechanics needed to actually apply a given movement or weapon. If the mechanics trained do not reflect what the student actually needs to do in combat then IMO you're programming for failure.


Agreed. Hard for me to believe that the intent of a nukite was to change it to a punch as needed.

If the style intended to teach punching, instead of spearing, then you would have seen different punching applications.

You will do as you train.
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Postby Guest » Sat Dec 11, 2004 9:32 pm

I don’t remember accusing Van of anything


1. No offense but what a load of BS.

2. Wow, that’s a pretty presumptuous statement.

3. I mean what are you saying, can we or can’t we use palms, first you say we can’t then say we can?

phantom insult? Your more direct!

#3 was the the icing on the cake, Your acussing Van of contridiction.. When he answers your question and suggests you ask Darren you tell the man you already know the answer. So What is your purpose here?

On another thread we get:

Yeah, but remember jorvik, unless it comes from the “Experts” it doesn’t count.


Is your only pupose here to take pot shots at Van? If you won’t identify who you are and you continue to behave like this I sugest you will wear out your welcome.
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Postby TSDguy » Sun Dec 12, 2004 1:04 am

Yeah, but remember jorvik, unless it comes from the “Experts” it doesn’t count.


Even though Uechij and everyone else are aruging the exact same thing, I'd love it if someone came out and blatantly said Van Canna was completely and absolutely wrong and has no idea what he's talking about(backing it up as well as he has of course). I posted a while back about how Geoff Thompson and forum are fans of fists. If people that know anything don't attack each other's views on the forum, we don't get to read it and figure it out for ourselves. Half the point of these forum seems to be to say "figure out what REALLY works and don't just accept what some random master said."

That said, I'm slowly converting to palm heels. :wink:
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Postby Bill Glasheen » Sun Dec 12, 2004 1:14 am

Stuff flies... :lol:

Jim

Sanchin was not meant to be a form for attacking a body. It is no more so that doing a bench press, a power clean, or a squat teaches you how to play football, but you aren't going to get out on the football field w/o doing those staples. IMO, sanchin just teaches body mechanics and a few basic principles. So, don't get hung up on things like chambering, thrusting straight forward from the shoulder, etc.

Don't confuse sanchin with Sil Lim Tau. The only similarity is they are the first of three forms of the system. Sanchin is working on lowest common denominator elements of the other two forms.

Another thing to consider... I trained a good bit with a judo/aikido/goju practitioner. The guy also did his GI bit in the green berets, and was a combat instructor there. He worked many multi-partner scenarios with us. As such, fighting someone face-to-face was something avoided. Dynamics can change quite a bit when you think that way. We could easily spend another thread on that; perhaps I'll start one soon.

It's also been written that Uechi as a style is a lot simpler than Wing Chun. You folks corner the market on things like hand trapping and chi sao. It's your thing... 8)

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Postby Bill Glasheen » Sun Dec 12, 2004 1:26 am

With all the stuff floating around, two interesting points come back to the surface for me. They both are related specifically to LEOs, and not necessarily a concern for civilians (although they could be...).

1) LEOs shouldn't train punches because doing so causes accidental firearm discharges under stress. The experiment referenced by Ben was nicely constructed. A great read! And it makes a lot of sense. No wonder to me any more why someone like Darren would preach what he does. That's HIS thing.

As such, it makes me ponder a bit more why a "modern" warrior might want to train an open vs. a closed-handed sanchin. More to thing about...

2) This really made me chuckle...
Another nice bonus of palm strikes is they don't seem as violent as clenching your fist and striking someone. Having your hands open will make the strike to appear a push to the untrained eye. Palm strikes will go over better than punches on the evening news.

Laughed so hard, I almost spilled my Dew on the keyboard...

How long can we get by with this one, mates? How to get away with really f-ing someone up. :roll: :lol:

- Bill
Last edited by Bill Glasheen on Sun Dec 12, 2004 1:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby MikeK » Sun Dec 12, 2004 1:28 am

Another thing to consider... I trained a good bit with a judo/aikido/goju practitioner. The guy also did his GI bit in the green berets, and was a combat instructor there. He worked many multi-partner scenarios with us. As such, fighting someone face-to-face was something avoided. Dynamics can change quite a bit when you think that way.

I've also trained with a ex-SF guy and I'll back up Bill's experience. I've always been amazed at how much traditional karate was in the SF methods and how little of the dogma that most styles burden themselves with. Outside of sparring there was very little closed hand boxing style techniques. Everything was done with the intent to end the fight even before the other guy was in it. Most of the empty hand work revolved around breaks and chokes. There is also a slap to the side of the neck that can break the neck.
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Postby Stryke » Sun Dec 12, 2004 1:37 am

How about the other points

Less liely to break bones .

less likely to cut due to the thicker skin .

less likely to be infected by bacteria because of the fleshiness and blood supply .

More likley to cause a shift in balance of opponent .

Easier to utilise for more delicately constructed people .

why the obsession with the fist ? Cultural or effectiveness ?
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Postby MikeK » Sun Dec 12, 2004 1:46 am

Fists are great for body shots.
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Postby Guest » Sun Dec 12, 2004 1:50 am

I agree Mike, so are boshikens and shokens
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Postby Stryke » Sun Dec 12, 2004 1:54 am

Fists are great for body shots.


Absolutely agree

so are boshikens and shokens


yup deffinately , and I`ll add Palm heels as in the kata Gion
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Postby Bill Glasheen » Sun Dec 12, 2004 4:00 pm

Jim

No problem on the hard questioning. I know where your head is, and I appreciate the way you think and question.

We may have to break out into another thread. This is getting off topic. (Not that a lot of it has to do with the original excellent video...) And we really are starting to split hairs.
Jim wrote:So Sanchin is to Uechi combat as Weight training is to football?

Then there should be an old football saying that goes:

"All (of football) is in weight training.."

It isn't a perfect fit, but pretty close. Certainly you can't call yourself a football player if you don't throw a weight or two around. Virtually 100% of college and professional players do benching and squats, and most do power cleans. It's more than getting big. Freeweight training teaches you body mechanics. Olympic lifts in particular develop power (as opposed to just strength) and the open chain nature teaches you how to move real entities not bound within the confines of some machine.

Not bad for martial arts either, although many of the traditionalists still think it interferes with your chi or something. Considering that many MMA forego kata training and do weight training instead, that says a lot.
Jim wrote:Well again, if the movements are not intended to be used then how can the mechanics of these unused movements be of any relevance whatsoever?

Any combat system, that no matter how simple, uses movements and, to train, over and over and over again movements that "are not used" makes no sense from a muscle memory training angle, nor is it congruent with the idea of training combat movements that will be used under the dump. All systems I am familiar with train movements in kata because they are to be used. To
me this is common sense.

Hmmm... This may be difficult to communicate. I will do my best.

To start with, this is from the book of Bill. Others may agree with me, or they may not. Doesn't matter if you think you are right, and have good material to back you up.

Bill's theory on sanchin is that it doesn't teach you SPECIFIC TECHNIQUES. Rather it teaches you GENERAL PRINCIPLES. Sanchin's value "under the dump" is that it is elegantly simple, so easily drawn from. Sanchin's value "under the dump" is that it doesn't teach you to do A given condition B, because in the real world condition B never quite manifests itself. In spite of the programmed (ROM) material in the reptilian brain, one still needs to adapt to a specific threat. So what you want are a few simple universal tools (the principles) that seem to work no matter what is thrown at you. And sanchin's principles "under the dump" don't conflict with what your body naturally will do when you are milliseconds from meeting your maker. You can go from flinch response to sanchin postures and movement with little effort.

And since I don't ascribe to the bianary view of "dump" or "no dump", I see sanchin working pretty well across the entire spectrum of neurohormonal stimulation. (High road vs. low road vs. "middle road" vs. "upper midle" road vs. ...). Its simple anchor is a great place from which you can apply a whole lot of specifics.

But IMO, you can't get the value from sanchin via autopilot. You can't learn to fight from sanchin by doing thousands of thrusts while listening to Okinawan music, burning incense, and drooling from deep meditation. Sanchin training is an active process, where the kata is the hub of all your activity. It involves:

* Conditioning the body
* Conditioning the hands and toes
* Conditioning the forearms and shins
* Doing technique training that draws from the movements and postures from sanchin. The kata then serves as a kind of pnemonic for those techniques. Everything is connected to a few simple basic postures, movements, and principles.
* Doing both yakusoku (prearranged) and jiyu (freestyle) work where the instructor guides the students through the process. Sanchin then becomes a reference book in an open process where all can investigate whether things agreed with or were inconsistent with the approach of the style.

Don't know if you're into math or physics but... It's like Maxwell's equations. If you truly understand them, you've got a lot of physics down. But memorizing them won't get you squat. You need to work a lot of problems and go through a lot of experiments to internalize the principles of the equations. Same goes for a few simple principles and equations in Einstein's theory of relativity.

Simple doesn't mean simpleminded. Simple doesn't mean limited. Sanchin is intentionally nonspecific so it can be as adaptable as we need it to be to fit all that we may encounter.

I constantly argue that there are many principles of grappling in sanchin. While it doesn't encompass them all, it is like the glove on the hand of that art. It explains why there are so many Uechi/JJ and Uechi/aikido practitioners IMO. It all works pretty well together. There's never a need to change mindset.
Jim wrote:Can't agree here either, IF the idea is that CQC isn't good when facing multiple enemies.

Never said that.

You should come see my "barroom brawl" scenario training. I work on these principles a lot. Perhaps another thread...

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Postby Van Canna » Sun Dec 12, 2004 6:23 pm

Bill
With all the stuff floating around, two interesting points come back to the surface for me. They both are related specifically to LEOs, and not necessarily a concern for civilians (although they could be...).


That’s a simplistic view. It has all to do with not screwing up your hand, or keeping that possibility to a minimum, so that you will have the use of that hand to extricate yourself from harm’s way, or reach for and use any improvised weapons, if not gun/knife or whatever you choose to carry along the continuum.



MikeK
Outside of sparring there was very little closed hand boxing style techniques. Everything was done with the intent to end the fight even before the other guy was in it. Most of the empty hand work revolved around breaks and chokes. There is also a slap to the side of the neck that can break the neck.


Right on. :wink:
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