Amazing first strike video

Sensei Canna offers insight into the real world of self defense!

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Postby Rick Wilson » Sun Dec 12, 2004 9:46 pm

Jim:

“So Sanchin is to Uechi combat as Weight training is to football?”

Only to some, this is not a statement I would make.
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Postby Bill Glasheen » Sun Dec 12, 2004 10:03 pm

Van wrote:
Bill wrote:With all the stuff floating around, two interesting points come back to the surface for me. They both are related specifically to LEOs, and not necessarily a concern for civilians (although they could be...).

That’s a simplistic view. It has all to do with not screwing up your hand, or keeping that possibility to a minimum, so that you will have the use of that hand to extricate yourself from harm’s way, or reach for and use any improvised weapons, if not gun/knife or whatever you choose to carry along the continuum.

You misunderstood me. That's yesterday's news for me. I'm talking about two new things I picked up: 1) fist training leads to involuntary firearm discharges, and 2) palm heel thrusts don't elicit the "Rodney King syndrome."

What you stated is already apparent to me.

Never too old to learn something new... :wink:

- Bill
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Postby MikeK » Mon Dec 13, 2004 12:40 am

Van, when I said "Outside of sparring there was very little closed hand boxing style techniques." I just want to make sure I'm clear. There was no squared up fighting or feeling an opponent out, you do your best to get your opponent broken down fast, there was some closed fist hitting to the body but since the range is closed so fast not much, something is going to break, the fight is over in under 10 seconds.

For what it's worth, as a Uechi-cub, sanchin is my checklist of basics. For me it's still abstract and I don't currently use it as a fighting kata. I think that's a plus as I can concentrate on learning each part, each basic without the distraction of wondering "what's this for"? This may all change as I go onward and upward but for now it serves that purpose just fine. Maybe because I train under Bill I understand what he's saying.
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Postby Van Canna » Mon Dec 13, 2004 3:24 am

Uechi is a great system with great tools, great techniques and great concepts, especially as it was taught originally by Kanbun, before undergoing some very questionable “improvements” _

Mike, I grew up in a rough neighborhood, in
Southern Italy, with lots of strife daily. I have investigated a great number of real life fights in my work and had a few bad encounters on my own, including one against multiple opponents with weapons.

One thing to keep I mind is this: Concepts and techniques will always remain marginal in dealing with a street fight, which today it will be likely by multiple opponents with some sort of a weapon.

What one needs to survive a potentially lethal confrontation, and most street fights will be, in spite of the denial syndrome, IS_ a pugnacious, ruthless mentality that brings forth a destructive instinct, that your opponent[s] read/perceive subliminally, to exceed their own.

If you cannot project ferocity in survival mode, the rest of the dojo stuff we do is all bull s*hit. :wink:

Believe that and you'll be allright. :splat:
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Postby Van Canna » Mon Dec 13, 2004 4:16 am

I asked Alan Lowell: Could you address the reasons why FAST does not want the students to use the punch in adrenal stress scenarios?

Answer
First and foremost I would say safety. 1. Hitting with the closed fist to the head can bust up your hand in a hurry. 2. The palm heel strike is easy to learn and use for the non martial artist. 3. Clenching the fist during the verbal interview may escalate the encounter. 4. It tightens you up and can restrict power. 5. From the hands up "back-off" position it's very quick to launch a palm strike if needed.
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Postby MikeK » Mon Dec 13, 2004 2:03 pm

One thing to keep I mind is this: Concepts and techniques will always remain marginal in dealing with a street fight, which today it will be likely by multiple opponents with some sort of a weapon.
I agree and have started working on this also. But good imbeeded core techniques and principles can help you when things go south. Van I don't take martial arts thinking that they are a complete self defense system. I do take martial arts because they are a part of my personal defense system. The other reason I take martial arts is because I enjoy learning them.

I won't bother to push the issue. But I will find out what that damn outer boundary shooting nukite is for.

Jim, It can be many things. Kata in karate are funny. What one ryu teaches as advanced is the first in another system. Isshinryu starts with a version of seisan and it's sanchin is somewhere after naihanchi. I wouldn't get so hung up on the order that they are taught as it just reflects what the sensei found worked for him. But that's just according to Mike. :D
I was dreaming of the past...
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Postby Bill Glasheen » Mon Dec 13, 2004 2:18 pm

Jim

The football thing was an analogy. I was fortunate enough to work with world heavyweight champion powerlifter and strength coach John Gamble. And I also learned a lot from author and orthopedic surgeon Dr. Dan Kulund. This is where I picked up a lot of stuff that eventually made it into the popular literature in the general field of plyometrics.

No problem; to each his own. This is why I stated it was only my opinion. Everyone must come at it from THEIR OWN point of reference, and their own life experiences. Without that, you're just regurgitating someone else's dogma.

I've pondered what you ponder for years concerning the straight-from-the-shoulder nukite thrust. I experimented with the placement of it in the mid-1970s, around the time in fact that I also was picking up Sil Lim Tau from a book. Eventually I started asking a lot of questions of various Okinawans when they made it to various Thompson Island camps. (Tomoyose, Takamiyagi, Yonamine, Higa, Shinjo Nadahiro, etc.) The answer was always the same - kata is kata; application is application. They would vary somewhat from indiidual to individual as to how they did things, but many things pretty much stayed the same, such as the placement of this thrust. And everyone would kind of look at you funny if you spoke "application" w.r.t. the placement of that thrust.

As I've cross-trained a lot and been able to fit some (but not all) of my experiences to my sanchin base, I've begun to ascribe more and more to that generalized view of what sanchin is. It works for me...and that's fine for me today.

I've also questioned the open-handed thrusting of the system. When I say open-handed, I don't mean the palm heel thrust that all the modern warrior gurus teach to the weekend warriors. I'm talking shoken and nukite and hiraken and boshiken. And even the sokusen - the big toe kick. These are not weekend warrior techniques. I never thought any of that stuff was useful, because I was too good at hitting things with other weapons. But over time... As Flip Wilson once said, "It's the kind of thing that creeps up on you later - like them Fruit-o-the-Loom shorts." :P Anyhow, I now find myself doing some of these techniques without thought. I now find myself having the strength to do things with my fingers and big toe that I never could when younger. The process seems to work - slowly. And it changes both your body and thinking.

And I have found a FEW uses for the straight nukite. But nothing straight forwards from the shoulder. Literally. Yet...

But if you have ideas, by all means start a thread and chat. I'll start one myself if you wish.

- Bill
Last edited by Bill Glasheen on Mon Dec 13, 2004 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Bill Glasheen » Mon Dec 13, 2004 2:35 pm

I agree absolutely, Jim.

The kata speak to me. I am very comfortable with the "comversation" today. When I tell others what they say to ME, they don't always agree. And that is fine. But I ask what they think, and often don't get any answer at all. Not very satisfying.

But sometimes you can pick up some real gems... ;)

BTW, are you bringing numerology into this? Lots of interesting stuff in the forms, although I've heard various theories. Some get into it deep. Others just pass it off as being of religious significance.

- Bill
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Postby maxwell ainley » Mon Dec 13, 2004 9:11 pm

The nukite is a very dangerious weapon ,thats why its in sanchin ,I took to the nukite on a very serious note from day one ,devoting a solid six months to its development alone ,I saw it as a type of kung ,well to be truthfull I treated all aspects in that manner.
Working the nukite in a [kung ]manner gives in quicker order the ability to be more confident to have as front line weaponry sooner than later.
The symetrical balance development was laid in total sanchin ,thats the quick route to it ,but most would not dare to use it in a real fight for fear of hand damage ,and true to uechi stratergy this concept should be a front line weapon prepared /tempered ready for instant use .

Develop the bone structure in sanchin ,then bring in the hand conditioning .

Hand conditioning ; 50 reps double nukite into soft sand .
two weeks later 50 again into a course sharper river sand ,moving to grit sand .

Press ups on finger tips 50 per day .

A bucket of ballast [smallish pebbles mixed with sand ,50 reps spear into bucket /box then grab ,let go .

The twisting device is superb for increasing finger grip hand arm strength .

I prefere sand for its total conditioning to the entire hand .
The more you incorperate similar methods to this your choice ,you will have a front line dangerous weapon .

Thats for starters .
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Postby benzocaine » Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:11 am

Max,

Did/Do you use Iron palm linament(Dit da Jow) for the nukite development?
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Postby maxwell ainley » Tue Dec 14, 2004 5:52 pm

Hi Ben,
No never used [dit da jow ] but I know a lot use it ,I tend to be carefull ,unlike some I know who damaged their hands by attempting to break house bricks ,with no conditioning whatsoever ,plus I was clued up on the various strengths of bricks anyway .
If you treat this conditioning with care and attention ,and start to feel extra strength in the fingers ,reasons why the nukites are in sanchin will appear ,rather than loads of theory,but hands wrists ,fingers that buckle etc ,it will never make sense at all ,my aim is to work these very practically early on in training ,to give added purpose to our open handed techniques ,I can't see the point in turning boxer in sparring and avoiding our classic stilleto heel hand techniques .

Hand conditioning , three sanchins 5 finger tip push ups 10 sets do that and see the instant differance

Twisting device 5 reps overhand 5 sanchins [5 reps underhand twisting device ] 5 sanchins 5 sets
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Postby benzocaine » Tue Dec 14, 2004 7:11 pm

On thing I do at work to condition my nukite is I open boxes of rubber gloves by striking the perforated edges with a nukite. Also every time I put on a pair of gloves I push a spear hand into the box. It has the same consistency of flesh.. well fat boy flesh :)

But it's a start.
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Postby Bill Glasheen » Tue Dec 14, 2004 7:18 pm

Max

Over the years I've managed to surprise myself with my finger strength development. I do not do fingerPRINT pushups. Rather I now can do a kind of boshiken pushup where I am on the boshiken thumb and finger TIPS.

I don't wish to develop my hands any faster and/or farther. I am listening very closely to my body. At age 50 (perhaps even at any age) my finger joints talk to me, and tell me when enough is enough. I have all the strength I need now, but I believe my articular cartilage (the slippery surfaces on the tips of the bone joints) is communicating that I should back off. Those articular cartilage surfaces in the distal joints of the fingers are amongst the first to develop osteoarthritis. A nukite frankly is not that important to me.

Meanwhile, I've developed a kind of "Uechi pushup" that I do which I learned from a panagainoon instructor via the Nebaraska people. Because of this exercise which I now can do on wooden floors, I have no problem with the shoken, hiraken, and boshiken. It took a while to get there, but now my hands are ready. Furthermore, this exercise does not stress those distal joints that are so much more prone to osteoarthritis.

I truly believe work with the kami (Okinawan jars) is much healthier. Why? Because it involves stretching rather that compressive forces on the fragile distal finger joints. Even the rock climbers warn you about doing things like crimping as a regular exercise. Better to hang from those fingers.

Maybe your hands, Max. Not mine. Not today. Maybe one day...or maybe not. I'm listening to my body, and it is saying "Not yet."

Now if I had thick fingers like some... And if I could drop down in a lateral split, I'd also be doing more head kicks... ;)

The person must find a way to fit into the style. For me - today - I mostly view nukite as metaphor. I have a few spots I can use it (eyes, suprasternal notch, armpits, neck), but not many.

If you can make it work, you're a better man than I.

- Bill
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Postby MikeK » Tue Dec 14, 2004 7:51 pm

There is a nukite "cheat" that newbs can do to play with what a nukite can be used for. Make a nukite, but then place the ring and index fingers under the middle finger. This acts as a brace to the middle finger and is fairly strong. I've been using it until I can get some strength into my hands.

Jim, Your uses sound similar to what I've been shown. I've used the cheat in sparring to the arm pit and it works, and I've been nailed with nukite to the neck and arm pit and them boys hurt even pulled.
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Postby maxwell ainley » Tue Dec 14, 2004 8:19 pm

Hi Bill thats fine go with what you feel .
The main finger strength is developed in sanchin ,which the format I use focuses upon ,now thats a lot of finger work in its own right .
followed by conditioning into soft sand ...progressing .twisting device jars finger tip push ups in a well rounded way give balance ,note with the push ups 5 then sanchins thats safe Bill when integrated ,as you say the jars stretch, here again it smart to play safe ,plus i have never had a problem with injuries to fingers etc .

th main point is keep safe ,if your fingers are weak build strength very gradual .remember I don't do any of these things until three years on sanchin as been completed .which is holistic in its own right .
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