Amazing first strike video

Sensei Canna offers insight into the real world of self defense!

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Postby MikeK » Tue Dec 14, 2004 8:53 pm

JimHawkins wrote:
MikeK wrote:Jim, Your uses sound similar to what I've been shown.


Including using Nukite as a clear?


I was referring to your uses against the throat and armpit. It's been at least a decade since I took WC so could you define it's use as a clear more? I'll see about the other two once I understand what your first question means. :D
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Postby MikeK » Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:38 am

I think I understand now Jim. I would say that is a big yes. One thing about karate is that a strike will often deflect a strike or clear on it's way in. I have some pictures of Nakayama doing what I think is similar to what you're talking about but my scanner is on the blink. I think there might be another version in the kata Kanshu. There is a move where the hands are layered one on the other both in nukite and you wedge in and attack the suprasternal notch. I've used that move as a counter to a two handed frontal chokes. I'll let the my big Uechi cousins tell me if I'm full of bean or not.

Now someone can call me on this but the karate I've taken, I don't know about Uechi yet, has never emphasized taking the centerline. It's always been if that's what's open great, if not break them some other way. I think with karate it's more about finding advantage and something to break from what's presented. I prefer taking the back myself.

Do you seek to stick? Meaning stay in contact?
Don't know about seeking to stay in contact, but yes since that's the way to get to my goal. One of my sensei has just this week started teaching me finishing moves and the only way to really finish someone is in close contact.

Wish I could get to class tonight to double check some things, but family matters first. :)
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Postby Bill Glasheen » Wed Dec 15, 2004 6:13 pm

Jim

There are several Uechi applications that involve "sticking" in a big way after using the nukite.

A classic example is in seisan. If BG reaches for you, he exposes the arm pits. Thrust straight forewards into armpits, and you may get the nerve bundle that goes down the arm. At the least, you trigger a reflex which causes arms to retract. Then one transitions from nukite to the "yin" application of a shoken - the tiger claw grabbing and tearing. The shokens grab skin under the arm, edge of the pectoralis muscles, underarm hair, etc. Whatever floats their boat - literally. This reflex resonse causes the person to raise up on tip-toes. One can then lift, move, and manipulate the BG. It's great for using BG as shield in multiple opponent combat.

These kinds of targets work well for the nukite because they are "hand in glove" targets. And by hitting nerves and reflex points, they are great force multipliers. Max force is not needed to get the job done.

Another "trick" for nukite (which is in kata) is to put one on top of the other. This is both a great "clearing" motion (as you suggested above) and a wedge which fits beautifully in the suprasternal notch. Again, "hand in glove" and "force multiplier" (gag reflex) principles involved. There are a number of "sticking" techniques that can subsequently be done from here, such as grabbing the arms (with crane wings) or grabbing the shirt (with hirakens). More fun ensues from there... 8)

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Postby Guest » Wed Dec 15, 2004 7:28 pm

One can then lift, move, and manipulate the BG. It's great for using BG as shield in multiple opponent combat.
Has anyone ever done this seisan application in real life. I would love to hear from someone who has picked up a 200lb man and moved him. He just stood there and did nothing right? I think peddling this application might get folks hurt if they try it, but I could be wrong....anyone ever do this move outside of a dojo?

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Postby Stryke » Wed Dec 15, 2004 7:50 pm

Has anyone ever done this seisan application in real life. I would love to hear from someone who has picked up a 200lb man and moved him. He just stood there and did nothing right? I think peddling this application might get folks hurt if they try it, but I could be wrong....anyone ever do this move outside of a dojo?


Oh that move ..... Simple and brutal huh , that meets the criteria

I Dunno Laird , I dont know how one would attack someone if they had there hands in your armpits ..... It would be likely Id just jump up on my toes and dance around ....

heres a thought .. anyone ever tried resisiting this move ?
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Postby MikeK » Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:00 pm

Yes, I have tried resisting this against another sensei, and couldn't. Laird it's not a finishing move but a control. I've also used it back when I was doing CDT against some big fellows in the dojo during sparring, and it worked then. It's funny how well these kind of things work when someone isn't expecting it. I haven't used it on the streets but it doesn't seem to be uncommon in practical martial art systems either.
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Postby Bill Glasheen » Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:09 pm

It works well in my Barroom Brawl scenario training. You do it fast to accomplish your need, and move on.

Also...you don't have to "pick the person up." Loosen your thinking up a bit. You can also take a very large man, and spin yourself around him. This I teach to very small folks against my big boys. It works quite well. Axis of rotation is them and not you.

If your sanchin mechanics are right, you can "lift" just about anyone, depending on where you grab them. Difficult for me to explain without showing....

Study up a bit on reflex points, and you'll see what it is about. This isn't supposed to be a finishing technique. It is not a sanctioned Technique-O-DoomTM. It's just a "trick" that you use in combination with something else.

* If you reach for me, I thrust in your armpits and you stop. I attack your intent. Period. Nothing more...

* If you stimulate various spots under the arms, you tend to raise up. Period. Nothing more...

In real life, you are not nice when you grab. I have a place and a way I use my shokens to latch on that can get most folks' attention.

If you want attitude in the technique, add in a head butt. That'll take the starch out of them. This is one of many, many examples.

If you don't have faith in the technique, by all means don't use it.

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Postby maxwell ainley » Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:30 pm

While I totally agree with all of you ,on the traditional soft spot targets ,it sounds great on paper but in real conflct situations ,we all might get away with a bullseye eye poke ,but it don't always work that way ,to get the eyes can be difficult ,and they can miss ever so slightly and its a uncondition finger tip against the skull .
Against a resisting opponent ,our pointed weapons , seeking the sensible soft target can come unstuck in a clash with a aggressors limbs ,reality is very different .
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Postby Guest » Wed Dec 15, 2004 9:03 pm

Good points guys, I'm not adverse to grabbing and crushing or ripping flesh. It serves a purpose of creating a response that one may exploit.

What I don't buy is the using the body to block as it is done in the bunkai. Yes multiple opponents line them up.

Once again we have a large depth of experience and skill on the forums, anyone ever grab someone in two shokens and use them to block with of move the eBG into the path of another EBG?

I figuire since every shodan in the system trains this move someone might have actually tried the move on the street.

Maybe folks have tried it and not lived to tell the story :wink:

Maybe the move is good but the bunkai is questionable.
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Postby Stryke » Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:27 am

I`m a fan of striking armpits and grabbing , and lighting up a few nerve bundles but ... I just dont get the positional strategy of this move .

the headbuts a good Idea , i`m just having trouble visualising whats stopping your opponent from smacking you upside the head ....

Granted smacking one upside the head is not a traditional move but It might be effective ... i`ll have to do emperical research into this :lol:
Last edited by Stryke on Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Bill Glasheen » Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:27 am

Laird

You are way too literal. If you ask the question in just the right way, you'll get the answer you want I suppose.

I have spent a whole class on the many manifestations of just that movement. You can't freeze your brain on any one because it isn't going to work that way when a new situation presents itself. Tall people, short people, fat people, skinny people, male, female all present unique challenges in the execution of the principles of that movement. Any time you are grabbing someone in a "not very nice way" and getting that person in the way of someone else in a gang fight, you are using that sequence in the kata.

If you want to get hung up on silly literal interpretations in seisan bunkai, this isn't a first one I would pick. It's an incredibly useful move.

A Goju/aikido/judoka who was formerly one of my martial arts instructors told me he used the movement once. Special forces guy. He didn't go into a lot of details. He contacted me because of my Uechi, and we exchanged material over a several year period.

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Postby Stryke » Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:31 am

Bill whats the defensive nature of this move ? , how does it prevent you from being struck ? , is it purely pain compliance ? .
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Postby Bill Glasheen » Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:34 am

Stryke wrote:the headbuts a good Idea , i`m just having trouble visualising whats stopping your opponent from smacking you upside the head ....

I can't picture where it would be a problem, Stryke.

This is a tactical move in a rapidly-evolving scenario with multiple opponents. In application, you don't hold onto the person for more than a fraction of a second. While you are grabbing and holding, you do something that gets their attention. Temporarily they are dealing with their reflexes towards the nasty you are doing to them, and not pondering how they are going to smack you.

Picture hurling a chair at someone in a fight, just to slow them down. Now picture using a human. And that human doesn't necessarily have to be facing you in the grab.

BTW, another good "attention grabber" is to grab their pants and "wedgie" them from point A to point B. I've shown many a time how you can grab the belt (karate or civilian) with two shokens. Picture giving someone a wedgie. Motion look familiar? All you are doing is adding some sanchin mechanics and power to it.

I've tried showing this one in class on someone with regular pants. In general, my students don't appreciate it... :shocked!:

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Postby Stryke » Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:40 am

My personal reaction to pain and discomfort is to ##### the person up ...

Ask Laird , we had fun a couple times , he reacts the same .

I envision slapping the ear drums being quite natural .

I forgot the infamous wedgie technique ... No offence but If I`m in a self defence situation I cant see myself relying on the wedgie .

But the belt is a great handle , Ive used it once in a real situation , grabbed an arm and the belt from the back ... Talk about controlling someones centre .

I`m sre the technique can be used as you say , i just dont like to think there are filler moves in kata , Ill dig deeper , I prefer Lairds method of gouging the neck , I tried resistance ... it worked :oops: , and its a stronger defensive postion IMHO .

One of my criteria for kata ap[plication is a stronger defensive position , the others brutality and effect , the others simplicity .

to me it only meets the simplicity part .

but thanks for sharing
Last edited by Stryke on Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Bill Glasheen » Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:43 am

That's the idea... Just use the principle of the movement at the moment.

There's an element of surprise that helps big time. You don't stick around for the return favor.

Taking advantage of props around you (tables, chairs, hills, cars, whatever) helps. Throw them into someTHING as opposed someONE else.

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