Kung -Fu Interview

Sensei Canna offers insight into the real world of self defense!

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Postby Stryke » Sun Jun 15, 2008 12:35 am

Nice to see you on board , good post

I myself started studying the stuff for fighting. Then as I got older, and older, sh^#, and older, I began doing it mainly for physical fitness purpose. But if I only teach a student the non-fighting part of Uechi because of the student's own age or physical condition or preference, and he later teaches his students the limited version he learned, then one day in the future someone would say that Uechi is just for physical fitness wouldn't it? Isn't that what some or many Tai Chi people are saying nowadays about Tai Chi?


It`s pretty clear how it could come about , It`s pretty much what has happened .

I still havent had anyone agree that Uechi and CMA when trained with the right intent and methodology can be effective fighting arts .

Maybe they would on a boxing forum . :lol: :lol: :lol:

I could give examples all day long of sparring in all kinds of styles. They are all over youtube.

It's the man and his mind that makes a good fighter, not the style.
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Postby Van Canna » Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:45 am

Hey Henry…good post.

I travelled to Thailand many times (Yes, Van, keep your mind clean all right? I was on business ).


Yup…this is the kind of ‘full contact’ business fights in Thailand that is hard to refuse. :P

Image

Imagine the intimidating factor of this Thai fighter in the photo…LOL…

we had similar full contact fighters with long hair descending upon the Mattson Academy from Beacon Hill at night to intimidate the students into ‘underground scuffles’ in the sixties…LOL 8)
All right, enough blabbing from me. I can really understand why a lot of folks rather not got on the Forum. It sures takes a lot of time.


We know why lots of folks don’t get on the forum, Henry…

Forum means debates.

Often debates are gunfights with words.

Any good fighter needs natural skills augmented with the right type of training in order to be successful.

Such training is indeed time consuming and it is also an avocation for many.

The people that don’t post actually fear posting because they have none of the basic skills or the will to train to be successful posters. The time ….they have it…but it is spent on watching TV or drinking beer. :lol:

It reminds me of the times when at the end of a good Uechi class workout…I would ask for volunteers to step into the ring for sparring matches.

Some of them could not even be ‘shamed’ into crossing hands.

Same for the forums. :wink:
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Postby Laird2 » Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:32 am

Henry, it is good to see you on the forums again. I always enjoy your input. Hopefully our dialogue this time around won't cost me a small fortune. :lol: :roll: :wink:

If I am not mistaken last time we chatted you introduced me to the Bas Rutten's Video Series. Cost me a few dollars but eventually I bought most of them. Then I followed up with the big book of combat on DVD. Your advice was excellent as was the material; I enjoyed it a great deal! The material provided me with a great source of reference material for my ground work.

I eventually got involved with a BJJ group and have become quite enamored with Mark Hatmakers training materials.

Just wanted to say thank you, if it wasn't for your pointing me in a new direction and George's introducing us to Joe Pomfret's material I don't think I ever would have explored the ground game. Four or Five years later and the ground game is now receiving as much attention as my beloved Uechi. It appears you helped introduce me to my martial mistress the ground.

BTW, I’ve enjoyed your clips on your tube. Good job!

I was at first puzzled in regards to your comments concerning Darrin’s fighting history. I had not realized that it was in dispute. After reviewing the entire thread I do see LuckyD88 did bring this into question:

Luckyd88 wrote:Underground fights? Wow! That sounds really exciting. All these years that I've gone to China to visit mine and darin's Sifu, and I've never even got a chance to see anything like that. :wink: Talk about secrets in the martial arts. I will say this about yee though, he makes the martial arts so much more interesting and gives it that fantasy feeling that I loved when watching Kung Fu movies as a kid. Love and Respect.


Well I was relieved when I read this as Sensei Yee left so abruptly that I was feeling as though I had some how said something to offend him. I know realize that he vanished immediately after someone who trains under the same kung fu master as him posted on the thread. But this individual does not say Darrin’s claims are not true, he just says in his experience he’s not witnessed it. He also points out he loves the feeling to things that Darrin creates. So I don’t think anyone really has disputed Darrin’s claims to secret fights Henry.

Now given Mr. Yee’s rapid departure after this gentlemen’s post I suspect there could be some history between these too, but that is just a guess. I’m not interested in getting in the middle of it. If Darrin does not wish to debate with this other individual, or any other individual I suppose it is his privilege. I am unclear exactly why he has decided not to participate on the forums.

I personally am disappointed that someone like Darrin has decided not to participate with the group. I thought he had lots to offer us. I was keen to hear of his experiences in the East. Possibly LuckyD88 or Henry Thom will step up to the plate in his stead. I am particularly interested in how they feel Kung fu and Uechi mesh, and to hear of the approach to training etc.

I’m sure many of us are also interested in hearing of these secret fights as well. Many of us have seen Blood sport. I thought it was just a fantasy, possibly it wasn’t just a fictional plot created for entertainment, could it have been based on real events? Possibly the premise could be an interesting side thread for historians and movie buffs.

To be honest I’m more interested in what is and not what was and have a focus on what could be. My interest in other styles and era are all about gleaning the arts for anything that fits mine and improves upon the effectiveness of the ryu.
Laird2
 

Postby Laird2 » Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:45 am

Image

You guys break me up!
Laird2
 

Postby Laird2 » Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:55 am

Stryke wrote:I still haven't had anyone agree that Uechi and CMA when trained with the right intent and methodology can be effective fighting arts .


Well nameless faceless dude, I agree. I suspect s few others might too, but they will have to speak for themselves. :)

I box and do BJJ/ground work but to be honest when the rotating turbine starts throwing the fecal matter about if I'm in the landing zone I suspect it will be the blade or the Uechi that is utilized to try and stay clean.
Laird2
 

Postby Laird2 » Sun Jun 15, 2008 6:07 am

Then again why do anything, weather the storm. Just close your eyes and clench your butt cheeks a violent attack can't last forever can it. It's like conditioning , just a few bruises. I mean why even train self defence...fightings bad...just exercise.

Image

The horror the horror, sleepless nights counting sheep. Well hell at lease the shrink will make some coin. As long as the professionals and exercise classes get to cash in it's all good init?

***no critters were harmed in the making of this post.

***please fight global warming by recycling your field
dressing.
Laird2
 

For what it is worth. . .

Postby gmattson » Sun Jun 15, 2008 2:03 pm

When in Hong Kong (1964) with Tomoyose and Uechi sensei, we visited the President of the HK martial art's association. One of our group wore the "shoken" lapel pin w/ caligraphy of "karate". When the President saw this lapel pin, he graciously, but firmly pointed at the lapel pin and said he was unaware of any fighting organizations with members who study that sport.

As he was leaving, I mentioned that we represented Uechi-ryu and showed him my original lapel pin, with the three balls of fire and "China hands" caligraphy.

He smiled and welcomed us to HK and spent the day with us, visiting the Kungfu masters in HK and arranged a demo with his group.

While in China, in 1984, the head of the Fukien Wushu Association made a very strongly emphasized point that China does not promote any sport or art that emphasizes "fighting"! He also objected to the term "martial" when we asked about the history of Kungfu, while looking for the link to Uechi-ryu.

I mention these two encounters to point out how China feels about the reputation that foreigners associate with "kungfu". Of course the "chop suei" films doesn't do much to overcome this association with fighting.

Often the "facts" of topics, such as "kungfu" differ substantially from "official" representations and in this discussion we should take documented and verbal history with polite skepticism.
GEM
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Postby Van Canna » Sun Jun 15, 2008 2:45 pm

http://gochina.about.com/od/zhengzhou/p ... istory.htm

Then we have this…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uechi-ry%C5%AB

Early history
Kanbun Uechi studied Pangai-noon (half-hard, half-soft) Kung Fu under Shushiwa in the Fujian (a.k.a. Fukien) province of mainland China in the late 1800s and early 1900s.

After 10 years of study under Shushiwa, Kanbun Uechi opened his own school in Nanjing province. Two years later, Kanbun Uechi returned to Okinawa, resolved never to teach again because one of his Chinese students had killed a neighbour with an open-hand technique in a dispute over land irrigation.

It was while working as a janitor that he was persuaded by a co-worker, Ryuyu Tomoyose, to teach again after Uechi was first convinced to show Tomoyose ways of defending against different attacks.

His confidence as a teacher restored, Uechi, with the help of Ryuyu Tomoyose, moved to Wakayama City, Wakayama Prefecture, where in 1925 he established the Institute of Pangainun-ryū (half-hard and soft) Todi-jutsu, and opened a dojo to the public. His Okinawan students eventually renamed the system in 1940 to "Uechi Ryū."


Kanbun Uechi's son, Kanei Uechi, taught the style at the Futenma City Dojo, Okinawa, and was considered the first Okinawan to sanction the teaching to foreigners.

One of Kanei's senior students, Ryuko Tomoyose, taught a young American serviceman named George Mattson, formerly of Boston and now residing in Florida, who authored several books on the subject and is largely responsible for popularizing the style in America.

Uechi Ryū emphasizes toughness of the body with quick hand and foot strikes. Several of the more distinctive weapons of Uechi practitioners are the one-knuckle punch (shoken), spearhand (nukite), and the toe kick (shomen geri). :? Because of this emphasis on simplicity, stability, and a combination of linear and circular motions, proponents claim that the style is more practical for self-defense than most other martial arts.

In contrast to the more linear styles of karate based on Okinawan Shuri-te or Tomari-te, Uechi Ryū's connection to Chinese Nanpa Shorin-ken means it shares a similar foundation to Naha-Te (and thus Goju-ryu) despite their separate development.[2] Thus, Uechi Ryū is also heavily influenced by the circular movements inherent in kung fu from Fujian province.

Uechi Ryū is principally based on the movements of 7 animals: the Tiger, Dragon, Crane. Snake , Cobra , Leopard & Mantis


The connection of Uechi Ryu to ‘kung fu’ whatever we choose to interpret it…appears to be clear as a bell…the rest is BS semantics and individual obstinacy in deciphering history for a great number of reasons i won't get into.
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Postby Van Canna » Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:49 pm

I have been involved in quite a few construction claims and litigations in my career. For every "expert witness" who argues for one side with well documented and researched materials, you can be sure that there are numerous "expert witnesses" who argue otherwise and with equal amount of documents and researches.


I have covered this before, but your reference to ‘experts’ is a good opportunity to explore further since it has been the crucible [a severe test of patience and belief] of many arguments here.

The ‘right expert’ was my primary concern in my work of investigating and trial prep of catastrophic occurrences.

Our defense team knew that 'everyday' people employing their natural credibility detectors can almost always recognize the disingenuous [hypocritical operator] …

We knew that the 'everyday people' [the jury]…can judge the ‘experts’ with uncanny accuracy.

Juries are natural born ‘experts’ in judging credibility.

When something in the ‘communication string’ does not fit _ they are alerted and see and feel subtle differences subconsciously.

Human senses record hundreds of signals over time in critical subject matters and _in the course of brief encounters with people’s physical, emotional and professional beings.

We also knew that while lie detectors tests may take minutes and hours to complete the analysis of a single sentence, human minds record split -second conclusions concerning a speaker’s credibility and personality.

In a brief few minutes of speech from someone’s lips….we can sense * contradicting expression creeping over the mouth * the unconscious turning away * an errant eyebrow * the discordant word sounds in disharmony with the message * the give away body language, and the eyes that betray contrivance in what we say and do.

And so the contrived personality will tend to concentrate on the words he uses _ causing incongruent sounds and gestures with the message.

This ‘words control’ attempt gives way to self consciousness, stiffness, shrillness _

_ and in trying to synchronize the scores of contrived signals we are sending out _ it becomes something like trying to harness a flock of wild turkeys. :D

We may able to get one under control but we’ll loose the flock _ and ‘reverse impress’ the listener. :oops:

This can also happen with the written word, as the mind often ‘hears’ with our eyes. :!:

So we have ‘experts’ and ‘EXPERTS’ …discerning minds will tell the difference rather quickly. :wink:
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Postby hthom » Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:50 pm

Laird,

[quote="Laird2"] Just wanted to say thank you, if it wasn't for your pointing me in a new direction and George's introducing us to Joe Pomfret's material I don't think I ever would have explored the ground game. Four or Five years later and the ground game is now receiving as much attention as my beloved Uechi. It appears you helped introduce me to my martial mistress the ground.>

It has been a while hasn't it? Glad to hear that you have included ground fighting skills in your arsenal. I think that there is nothing more embarrassing than a supposedly good karate fighter who got taken down to the ground and acts like a dam# star fish.

[quote="Laird2"]Henry, it is good to see you on the forums again. I always enjoy your input. Hopefully our dialogue this time around won't cost me a small fortune.>

Don't be too quick Laird. Thanks for your comment about my Youtube clip though. You know what they say about the Chinese. It costs you money every time you talk to one :lol: Here is another opportunity for you to spend some of that money that are spilling out of your pocket --- on my DVD of Seisan and Sanseiryu Bunkai.:

http://store.fastcommerce.com/prod_East ... 674ab.html
or
http://www.amazon.com/Uechi-Ryu-Advance ... 485&sr=8-2

Will return later. Thanks.

Henry Thom
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Postby hthom » Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:33 pm

Van Canna wrote:
Our defense team knew that 'everyday' people employing their natural credibility detectors can almost always recognize the disingenuous [hypocritical operator]

We knew that the 'everyday people' [the jury]…can judge the ‘experts’ with uncanny accuracy.

Juries are natural born ‘experts’ in judging credibility.

When something in the ‘communication string’ does not fit _ they are alerted and see and feel subtle differences subconsciously.

Human senses record hundreds of signals over time in critical subject matters and _in the course of brief encounters with people’s physical, emotional and professional beings. :wink:


Van,

You are right. It's common knowledge that airports are using similar idea as you mentioned on security checks nowadays. http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/344 ... ler26.html

As to juries, unfortunately often times "emotional hijack" also got into the equation and some attorneys use it well. I have a personsl experience on a construction damage claim (being the construction manager I was on the hot seat) where we had all sorts of facts and EXPERTS but as soon as the plaintiff got on the stand, we knew we lost the case regardless -- she was an older lady with tears rolling down her face and murmurred loud enough to the effect that her husband just died recently and this (government agency) damaged her home and what is she to do. We lost! --- And should I bring up the world famous case where the unforgetable phase "mountain of evidence" was used repeatedly?--- OJ :twisted: .

Got to go. Totally enjoyed my brief return to the Forum. The weekend is just too short. Will try to come back more often. Thanks.

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Postby Van Canna » Sun Jun 15, 2008 6:37 pm

Henry,

You are correct on all counts.

Expert’s credibility…witness’s credibility…defendant and plaintiff’s credibility_ all play their parts to the eventual verdict.

The credibility factor was one we would evaluate in terms of ‘percentages’ _in the overall trial.

One case I had that actually went to trial instead of settlement on a compromise basis _ was this woman [A Greta Garbo look-alike] showing _ the ‘percentage’ gamble.

She claimed she was raped as a tenant in an apt. building where the rapist had been able to gain access to her room via a fire escape to her window with a defective lock negligently maintained by the owner of the premises.

May well have happened, but she claimed that after being raped seven times, the rapist had fallen asleep in bed, and only then she got up running out in the hallway screaming ‘rape’ _

Responding neighbors found no one in the room…surely he must have escaped the same way he had come in.

While waiting for the police and ambulance she went to the bathroom to clean herself up and flushed the toilet allegedly containing the condoms the rapist had used.

She also showered, so the ‘rape kit’ test showed zilch for evidence of rape…sexual activity in her vagina.

Forensics of the bed sheets…showed nothing.

She immediately retained the most famous ‘rape lawyer’ in town, who filed suit against the Bldg owner.

I interviewed all the tenants in the Bldg, and discovered some unsavory habits of this woman, such as frequent male visitors at all hours of the day and night to pick up job resumes she was preparing.

Women tenants in particular stated to me that she was very promiscuous and much in need of $$$

The police investigations showed no indication of entry or rape.

So the battle of experts was on.

I had met the woman and spoken to her…and I had a sense that right or wrong…a jury would find in her favor as she came across in pitiful emaciated ways.

Of course she did not take the stand.

We knew our experts scored high in credibility…yet I recommended to our client that the case be settled on a compromise…because credibility and …’end results’ are two different animals.

‘No dice’ the client said…we want a trial…

Sure! 1 million dollars award plus $750,000.00 punitive damages against the owner for his gross negligence in not responding to the tenant’s many notices requesting the fixing a dangerous condition e.g.,. A defective lock on a window leading from her bedroom directly outside a fire escape that touched upon the ground down below.

She had awakened finding a strange man with a big knife standing by her bed and masturbating…terrified she told him she was dying of cancer…his reply was.., ’well then you should enjoy this because you are on the way out of this world’… 8O

I could also tell you stories about the cases I had involving the negligence of general and subcontractors culminating in horrible deaths and property damage....and the contractual ramifications of 'hold harmless and indemnity agreements' :wink:
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Postby Rick Wilson » Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:46 pm

“While in China, in 1984, the head of the Fukien Wushu Association made a very strongly emphasized point that China does not promote any sport or art that emphasizes "fighting"! He also objected to the term "martial" when we asked about the history of Kungfu, while looking for the link to Uechi-ryu.”

The comment does not surprise me, George because the Communist government has worked very hard to destroy real martial arts in China.

Many masters had to flee China when the Communists took over for fear of being eliminated along with all the others the communist considered threats.

Those who survived the purge had to learn to tow the party line to stay alive.

Hence we have the gymnastics that China now refers to as martial arts.

And all the “Centres” where the arts were brought together to “study” and then produced “official” versions of the arts.

So, as I said, I am not surprised, George that you might hear such comments so contradictory to any written history of the Chinese masters who developed the fighting styles that existed before the Communists worked hard to milk toast and defang them.

Perhaps with the changes taking place in China some of those real masters may have handed down their styles and they can come out of the hidingand teach them once again as a martial art rather than the performance art the Communist have made them.

Post Note: I am sure real martial arts and real MARTIAL arts masters still exist in China so if you have studied there and studied for martial value then please take no offence from my post.

Just trying to head off those who have studied real “martial” arts in China from being offended. :D
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Postby Valkenar » Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:47 pm

Laird2 wrote:If Darrin does not wish to debate with this other individual, or any other individual I suppose it is his privilege. I am unclear exactly why he has decided not to participate on the forums.


Darin said:
Clearly many issues are mistakenly perceived and overstated. That is why I choose not to continue in this manner.


Seems pretty clear. He feels that in this medium he is unable to communicate clearly enough for sensitive topics. Given that he's also being mocked, I can see why he would not want to post anymore.
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Postby Stryke » Mon Jun 16, 2008 5:30 am

Seems pretty clear. He feels that in this medium he is unable to communicate clearly enough for sensitive topics. Given that he's also being mocked, I can see why he would not want to post anymore.


whats so sensitive ? :lol: :lol: :lol:

weres the mockery ? Folks ahve been very courteous .


arent there any educated folks capable of a robust heated debate of facts ?

I thought thats what being educated and experienced was all about .

Gem got it most right though

While in China, in 1984, the head of the Fukien Wushu Association made a very strongly emphasized point that China does not promote any sport or art that emphasizes "fighting"! He also objected to the term "martial" when we asked about the history of Kungfu, while looking for the link to Uechi-ryu.


when it comes to objectives , and politics , history seems quite adaptable , what people say in Public and private are often very different things .

I guess the Chinese dont consider Sanshou to be a fighting sport , even though it`s extensively used in military training there .....

some things are just obvious .

But Rick is correct , no matter what ones writes , it is likely to be taken as an insult if folks look with such eyes .
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