Entering the attack

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Re: Entering the attack

Postby Jason Rees » Sat Nov 19, 2011 4:06 pm

The knife you don't see is the one that'll cut you.
If the knife is all you see, it will cut you.

Rory posted something on his blog very recently about how people don't 'televise' defensive actions, but they will with offensive actions.. unless its' reactive. I think if you train to pull your gun quickly at the sight of someone standing 21 feet away from you with a knife, they won't get two feet towards you. If you brought a knife to a gunfight at the OK Coral, I'm pretty sure you're dead. If you have to think about pulling your gun when you see a threat coming at you with a knife, you're going to get cut.

But that's just my two cents, which probably aren't worth one. :wink:
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Re: Entering the attack

Postby Bill Glasheen » Sat Nov 19, 2011 5:33 pm

Interesting video, Van.

Van Canna wrote:
Any views on the so called 21 foot rule?


It's my understanding that the origin of "the 21 foot rule" is The Tueller Drill.

Wikipedia wrote:Sergeant Dennis Tueller, of the Salt Lake City, Utah Police Department wondered how quickly an attacker with a knife could cover 21 feet (6.4 m). So he timed volunteers as they raced to stab the target. He determined that it could be done in 1.5 seconds. These results were first published as an article in SWAT magazine in 1983 and in a police training video by the same title, "How Close is Too Close?"[1]

A defender with a gun has a dilemma. If he shoots too early, he risks being charged with murder. If he waits until the attacker is definitely within striking range so there is no question about motives, he risks injury and even death. The Tueller experiments quantified a "danger zone" where an attacker presented a clear threat.[2]

***

1. Tueller, Dennis (March 1983), "How Close is Too Close?", S.W.A.T. Magazine
2. Ayoob, Massad (October 1991), "Explaining the deadly force decision: the opportunity factor", Shooting Industry


So Sargent Tueller's drill is used - right or wrong - as gospel for those trying to dichtomize the shoot/no-shoot distance. The "21 foot rule" becomes a human construct superimposed on a non-dichotomous scenario, and justified with what little information was out there in the LEO literature. The actual reality is it's better used as a "rule of thumb."

When it comes to defending the perp who got shot, we all know that possession of a lawyer is nine-tenths of the law. His lawyer will use whatever he can to attack the LEO. The Tueller Drill then becomes a double-edged sword in the courtroom.

Van Canna wrote:
How would we handle such an attack?


Other than pisss our pants? :D There but for the grace of God go I.

We've had this discussion before, Van. In a firearms training class I was the only one who defeated the Tueller drill. And you tell me that Jimmy Malone did the same. Nothing is 100 percent. But getting off that charging bull line of force is your best bet for buying more time.


..... Correct approach

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..... Incorrect approach

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Jason wrote:If you brought a knife to a gunfight at the OK Coral, I'm pretty sure you're dead.


This is true. And it's also true that someone may still get cut. And that'll ruin your day.

There's nothing more dangerous than a suicidal attacker. Can you say loco? This guy had no sense of self-preservation.

- Bill
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Re: Entering the attack

Postby Jason Rees » Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:56 am

Bill Glasheen wrote:There's nothing more dangerous than a suicidal attacker. Can you say loco? This guy had no sense of self-preservation.

- Bill


Can't argue that. I'd be interested in knowing if the guy was juiced when that happened.
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Re: Entering the attack

Postby Van Canna » Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:20 am

:mrgreen:
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Re: Entering the attack

Postby bradyk00 » Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:54 am

This in an interesting topic...

Here is an article I recently wrote about this matter. I'd be curious to see what you all think about it.

https://gunmade.com/21-foot-rule/
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Re: Entering the attack

Postby Van Canna » Thu Aug 13, 2020 7:47 pm

Hi Brady,

Thanks for the post on the forum. Things have been quiet here for a while, but many people do read the posts.

I think your article is excellent in all respects pointing to the need to practice the Tueller drill.

What you point out about action always beating reaction is very critical to surviving any type of attack and in my classes we practice the concept of 'reading' and short stopping if at all possible and safe to do in any given attack.

Feel free to post anything you want on the forum, Brady, you may stir up some interest at large.

Thank you.
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