Kanshiwa Bunkai -- Alternative practice

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Re: Kanshiwa Bunkai -- Alternative practice

Postby Van Canna » Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:34 pm

There is also a big difference on the type of impact that a fist strike or a palm strike produced. The larger surface area of the palm will produce a jarring kind of impact compared to the smaller surface area of the fist, which would most likely produce a breaking kind of impact.

In the end, the practitioner must decide which technique to use depending on the situation and his level of expertise. Practice both then pick the one you personally trust.
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Re: Kanshiwa Bunkai -- Alternative practice

Postby Van Canna » Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:53 pm

Wes Tasker, Pekiti Tirsia Kali, Guro...taught the concussive power of the 'open hands of Pekiti Tirsia' at our dojo...to see Wes Tasker in action with his power slaps and his tenshin foot work, is something to behold.

It is interesting to note that this system is founded upon the reality of street violence with a weapons awareness that belongs to the 'force continuum' _
Pekiti Tirsia has become well known for the sophisticated and effective use of unusual “empty hand” body weapons and tactics like for example leg to leg attacks (tranka), dumog breaks (bali), pulls and pushes (hablot-tiklod), the forearm hack (banga) or the hammer fist (pokol), that add to the arsenal of more standard body weapons like kicks (sipa), palm heel strikes (tampa), elbows (siko), knees (tuhod), head butts (bungo) and secondary techniques like squeezing / pinching (kosi) and biting (kagat) etc.

Even with all this variety in body weapons, the most simple and yet maybe the most versatile and powerful self protection weapon of the system still is from the open hands: Hampak - the heavy power slap.
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Re: Kanshiwa Bunkai -- Alternative practice

Postby Van Canna » Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:57 pm

As experts in armed and unarmed combat, Pekiti Tirsia trainers have lots of experience and understand very well, that a regular punch has the movement characteristics of a stab while the forearm hack, open hand slap and hammer fist utilise the natural power arc of the strike.


In Uechi we have all of those.
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Re: Kanshiwa Bunkai -- Alternative practice

Postby Van Canna » Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:58 pm

Building on nature...

The Pekiti Tirsia heavy slap is a round, very natural movement, that is similar to the movement of throwing a stone or deflecting a flying mosquito. Because it is already part of every humans natural and instinctive fighting arsenal, even beginners with only short practise are able to deliver powerful slaps against real targets without any injury to the striking hand.
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Re: Kanshiwa Bunkai -- Alternative practice

Postby Van Canna » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:02 pm

Reliable when it is really needed!

The real measure of quality for every self-defence system is the amount of protection it offers in real world critical or life threatening situations. Such a situation will always be perceived different than a training or tournament situation. If a person, inexperienced in street fights, is confronted with a real hot self-defence situation, then he or she will very likely experience the psychological and physiological effects of the human stress and fear reaction (also known as the 'body alarm reaction' or 'fight or flight reflex')


In his excellent post, Marcus touches upon this problem...by reminding us of the importance of introducing the HAPV in our training v. just standard rote moves...and see how what we practice and visualize in use...would really work.

At this point it is a good idea to review those clips of street fights I posted above, and imagine you are one of the fighters.
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Re: Kanshiwa Bunkai -- Alternative practice

Postby Van Canna » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:16 pm

More from Pekiti Tirsia
Some, if not many of the sports oriented martial techniques are highly technical – not to say artificial – moves, that need to be learned and require a lot of training to develop the proper coordination that is needed for fast and accurate use. If now a danger situation triggers the 'fight or flight'-reflex and this reflex 'kills' the fine motor skills to support maximum body power, then those learned 'technical' moves are the first to disappear.

The straight punch too belongs to those artificial techniques that loose efficiency when the body activates it's instinctive stress and alarm reaction.

Of course with long and intensive training the straight punch (clenching the fist, coordination of wrist, elbow and shoulder) can become “second nature” (that's why most martial artist forget about the technical complexity of the punch), but if real street fights are observed – even with professionally trained fighters in contemporary Mixed Martial Arts events – the accurate straight punches are gone and the wild swing is the one that is typically observed.
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Re: Kanshiwa Bunkai -- Alternative practice

Postby Van Canna » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:18 pm

Slap: natural power

With the Pekiti Tirsia heavy slap the physiological effects of the human stress and fear reaction are no longer a problem. On the contrary! The heavy slap is a natural power move that actually benefits from the 'fight and flight'-Reflex.

When the body senses present danger and the survival instincts prepare the person for all out 'fight and flight' by going into adrenalin supercharged mode, then the body does what it is designed to do: It throws away fine tuned movements in favour of loading those fight-deciding power moves with all power reserves that the body can only access in this extreme situations. The body supercharges natural power moves like the heavy slap.

That is the reason why this open hand technique is perfectly suited for fighting in real danger. When the situation gets serious and the fine tuned motion of straight punches are very hard to maintain, then the open hand slaps shine at it's best: When they are really needed, they become faster and harder.
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Re: Kanshiwa Bunkai -- Alternative practice

Postby Van Canna » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:27 pm

What I have posted is always of interest to read and it continue here
Slapping the Pekiti Tirsia way

The Pekiti Tirsia slap is a special method that is different from the palm heel strike. From Whipping Slap to Heavy Slap, the Pekiti Tirsia Slap exists in a variety of versions, that are applied in different situations to solve different problems. The Pekiti Tirsia slaps can be used for parry, control or to attack to temporarily disturb vision, to disturb balance or simply to knock out the opponent.


I teach the power slap to body limbs as well...you can slap away arms and even kicks...as you try to find your way into the target. Plus, it really hurts them...try it and you will see the effect of your slaps on arms and joints of your partner in drills ...a variation of just blocks.

Do a Kanchiwa bunkai using power slaps to the incoming punches, full force, and see how many your partner can take.
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Re: Kanshiwa Bunkai -- Alternative practice

Postby Van Canna » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:30 pm

Even more impressed than the beginners are those martial artists that had previous experience in full contact sports. When they start to slap the Pekiti Tirsia way, they are usually just taken away by the additional hitting power, they can generate when using the open hand strikes.
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Re: Kanshiwa Bunkai -- Alternative practice

Postby Van Canna » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:34 pm

Another reason why the slap very well matches the needs of contemporary civilian self protection is, that the slap as an open hand tactic can easily be incorporated in natural body language, that appears to the aggressor and bystanders (witnesses) strong, yet non-aggressive and peaceful, thus giving ideal possibility to diffuse situations without the need to resort to physical violence. A preferred option in Pekiti Tirsia.

The slap methods combines very well with the chambering and monitoring methods of the Pekiti Tirsia system. The combination of these methods allows for a magnitude of tactical possibilities.

For example to test the intentions of an adversary from a secure position as for example giving him a controlled opportunity for a “save” first strike, that is of course expected and actually controlled before the strike starts.

With this principle the aggressive opponent has lost the fight, the moment he takes the bait of the “obvious unaware and easy prey”.
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Re: Kanshiwa Bunkai -- Alternative practice

Postby Van Canna » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:36 pm

Like Slaps are moving on circular paths, so with a thorough understanding of the slap and the preferred Pekiti Tirsia tactics, everything smoothly fits together: Philosophy, human nature, culture, self-protection, efficiency, legal practice, joy of life, healthy training – all this complement each other in Pekiti Tirsia like a perfect circle to a consistent whole.
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Re: Kanshiwa Bunkai -- Alternative practice

Postby Van Canna » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:56 pm

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Re: Kanshiwa Bunkai -- Alternative practice

Postby hthom » Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:54 pm

Although I am a palm proponent, fists are extremely effective if you have the bones to back them up - plus a strong wrist (see below). Due to my bad experience with broken knuckles I always have this fear that the next punch I throw I will break a knuckle and turns into a one handed losing battle.

Here is an example of punches in a real multiple opponent fight. This could almost be said as what Kanshiwa Bunkai is all about :mrgreen: This person is obviously trained, and had a lot of luck.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8_zWBQXZj4

But, here is more like what I have been talking about on this thread, showing a more common occurrence ending being tackled to the ground and got the head kicked repeatedly (Don't ever do what this guy did though- he got out of his car which is total stupidity, couldn't wait to start the fight, plus he threw two lame kicks first. By the way, go to 6:00 for the surprise. He is a trouble maker but that is not my point here.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhmOzhPRxQs

GEM
Konshiwa was originally created and performed for many years using the shoken and not the closed fist.


Wow, didn't know I can turn my memory that far back but I did. I do remember that we did Kanshiwa with shoken back in your Columbus Ave dojo. That was at least three life times ago, Sensei. :)

Van
The wrist is something that we rarely discuss here, maybe on the assumption that our wrist joints will be impervious to injury/dislocation when even hitting an opponent center mass rather than his head.


Glad you mentioned it. Punches are powerful only when the knuckles/bones are strong and the wrist does its job. Do not do anything that may damage your wrist. If you are one of those who enjoys full power punches to heavy bags, tightly wrap up your wrists. I often wonder about those guys in the gym holding a dumb bell moving their wrist up and down over and over and over---. Also, don't ever be the one on the receiving end of a wrist lock (or any joint lock) demonstration either. Just say no!

Have a wonderful Labor Day weekend, everyone. I will be relaxing in Cancun. :D
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Re: Kanshiwa Bunkai -- Alternative practice

Postby hthom » Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:29 pm

Since this thread is about multiple opponents, I just want to show you all the secret on taking down 10 black belts before I pack for my trip (you might want to go straight to 1:00, I will buy you a tequila sunrise if you can make it to 3:00 :mrgreen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsM_tsvT394
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Re: Kanshiwa Bunkai -- Alternative practice

Postby Van Canna » Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:40 pm

No question punches do work...you get more reach as well. The guy in the video is a trained boxer...I have seen that discussion on line before...besides he is a lucky one for not having been run over by the mob and stomped to death.

What we still don't know is if he cut his hands with all those punches. The Last thing you want to do in a fight.

The late Allen Moulton...did just that in punching someone cutting his knuckles on the punk's teeth....infection set into his knuckles and tendons...his arm swelled up like a balloon...when he finally rushed to the hospital, he was told, an hour or two late he would have died from sepsis…http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sepsis

These days, in addition to the danger of sepsis, you need worry about HIV transmission.

It takes very serious work to deprogram the natural instinct to clench a fist and strike with the knuckles…and our programming to use fist strikes may have other consequences if you also include a firearm in your continuum.

See this… The Fist Reflex

An involuntary discharge experiment conducted by International Defensive Tactics and Research Foundation (I.D.T.) between December 1991 and September 1993 showed that being trained to use your fists may lead to having an involuntary discharge.


Phil Messina, President of Modern Warrior Defensive Tactics Institute states, "The fist reflex is a response which occurs when an individual psychologically associates making a fist with high stress confrontational situations".


All experiment participants were police officers, male and female with an average time in service of three and one half years. No Modern Warrior students were permitted to participate. One group struck heavy bags at a minimum of 800 strikes with their fists, the second group struck heavy bags at a minimum of 800 strikes with open hands and the third group just did the final stress simulation.

The final simulation consisted of having an officer enter a smoke filled room, where the smoke has an odor and taste, strobe lights are on, the terrain is obstructed and wind is created by the use of high speed fans. All senses are overloaded. Suddenly gunshots go off (on tape) and a figure comes running at the officer waving hands and screaming. The figure runs into the officer unless the officer moves away.

This scenarios purpose is to stress out the officer enough to cause an involuntary discharge of the officer's firearm.

Each group had 50 participants. From the fist group there were 18 involuntary discharges. Nine of those officers had their finger off trigger prior to discharge. From the non-fist group there were 3 involuntary discharges, with 2 finger off trigger prior to discharge. From the control group 1 finger off trigger prior to discharge.


"Post Experiment interviews strongly indicated that a high percentage of participants who had involuntary discharges had studied martial arts emphasizing fisted strikes. Boxers were foremost in this category," said Messina.


Based partially on these experiments Modern Warrior DT Institute has taken all fisted strikes out of their Police Defensive Tactics curriculum and replaced them with palm strikes and other open handed alternatives when counter striking becomes necessary.

Conclusion

Using fisted strikes as the primary hand technique of police defensive tactics training is a perfect example of how sport martial arts influence police training. Many DT Instructors have a boxing or karate background, they teach what they like to do. Defensive tactics has to be based on what law enforcement officers will encounter in the field, not what an instructor encountered in the ring. The primary strike should make sense for police work. The primary hand technique for law enforcement should be the palm strike.
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